Talk:Four Go houses

Proposed merge
I suggest merging the four individual houses into this article. They're a bit rudimentary at the moment, and I don't think we gain by diluting content over so many pages. If nobody minds, I will do the merge in a month's time, ie. Nov 21. Reyk YO! 06:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)


 * ✅-done Reyk YO! 11:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 11 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus has emerged after more than 2 weeks. Editors disagree on what rules apply. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  09:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Four go houses → Four Go houses – By convention, "Go" is the correct capitalization for the game. The article and the redirect need to be swapped. Coastside (talk) 07:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


 * queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:23, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't believe this is in line with MOS:GAMECAPS. 207.161.86.162 (talk) 07:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Move to Four Go Houses? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * This is the same discussion as this discussion. I am suggesting formalizing the convention of capitalizing "Go" in the WikiProject because this keeps coming up. In short the convention on Wikipedia is to capitalize Go, which is consistent with reliable sources including Go World. I believe sources generally do it that way to avoid readability issues because of the English verb "go".  Also, definitely not "Four Go Houses", because that's not a formal name for them. Coastside (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Support; MOS:GAMECAPS allows for conventionalized variants, and this is one of those examples - by convention, "Go" is capitalized where alternatives such as "Chess" are not. See this BBC article where the former is capitalized inside sentences, while the later is not. BilledMammal (talk) 22:23, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose not a proper noun.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 07:51, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per Coastside, BilledMammal. Capitalising 'Go' is natural, recognisable and consistent with existing usage.  Also support amending MOS:GAMECAPS to make this an explicit convention. Havelock Jones (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Go is clearly not a proper name any more than chess is. A generic name for a traditional game. However, it is possible that the whole thing should be capitalised as Four Go Houses as these were actual institutions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The four houses were each individually formal, but as a group they were not a formal institution, and they were not collectively formally named 'Four Go Houses' at the time or since. The four Go houses is merely a descriptive term. Coastside (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support- IMO this should be one of the exceptions in MOS:GAMECAPS, because this follows how most of our sources do it. Reyk YO! 14:42, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. MOS:GAMECAPS exists for a reason. The fact that players of go like to over-capitalize it, just as players of chess over-capitalize "Chess", etc., is a typical WP:Specialized-style fallacy.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:56, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Honinbo gone lost
I came to Wikipedia to find the chronology of the 21 Honinbos. Such information has been here, under Honinbo of course, but seems lost. Unfortunately, today Honinbo redirects to "Four go houses" ("Four Go houses" would have been better, go is an extremely common English word, and common usage is to capitalize the name of the game to avoid confusion). There seems to be no content about the Honinbo House other than the single sentence "The Hon'inbō house was easily the strongest school of Go for most of its existence. It was established in 1612 and survived until 1940." The French Wikipedia has the data I was looking for (Sansa 1612-1623, Sanetsu 1630-1658, Doetsu 1658-1677, Dosaku 1677-1702, ..., Shusai 1908-1940). This list should be given under Honinbo, with links to the individual Honinbos that have their own article. There is no relation whatsoever between the Four Go Houses and the modern honorary Honinbos. That subsection belongs under Honinbo, not here. Also the data for the other houses was lost. The text still shows that there used to be more data. For example, under Yasui: "The retirement or posthumous names are listed here", while in fact nothing is listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:980:3FF4:1:B62E:99FF:FE4C:71C3 (talk) 15:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I found the list your are looking for |here. This was just before the article was merged into this combined article on the Four Go houses.  There is such a western bias in Wikipedia that there are so many more articles on chess than on Go, even though more people play Go than chess (just in Asia vs. Western countries), and Go is a far older game with a rich history.  There were stub articles on each of the Go houses, but they were merged .  I suggested moving the list of Honinbo title holders back in this article, at least for now.  The problem is that instead of developing these articles further, editors see it as trivia and delete it. Again, it's a western bias that somehow articles on Go need to be condensed and abbreviated  the opposite of what happens in the articles on chess. Coastside (talk) 19:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I think the issue is more that most WP editors are English speakers and for some stuff English-language sources are not readily available. It's not that people are biased against covering it. Reyk YO!</b> 19:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Coastside: Yes, thanks, in . Reyk: The problem was not the sourcing, also in English there are printed references, and lots of official web pages. Information was deleted. A page was created with material unrelated to its title, where the text still refers to the deleted info. I fixed a few things but am not sure I am permitted to move or rename pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:980:3FF4:1:B62E:99FF:FE4C:71C3 (talk) 15:21, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2021
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 17:54, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Four go houses → Four Go houses – Although this question was considered very recently here, with a "no consensus" conclusion, a new consensus appears to have emerged in the meantime. After discussion at Talk:Mirror Go, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Go, and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters, the MOS:GAMECAPS guideline now says "The name of the game Go is capitalized," with a note that says "Reliable sources conventionally capitalize Go because of readability issues given the common English verb go." —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 16:05, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support per recent developments at WP:MOSCAPS. The previous move request ended as no consensus because of the mischaracterisation of the support position as "special pleading", or because "MOSCAPS says nooe"- both of these objections have become obsolete. <b style="color: Maroon;">Reyk</b> <b style="color: Blue;">YO!</b> 16:14, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Suppport per above Coastside (talk) 17:01, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thankks :-) —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 00:32, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:31, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support—WP:MOSCAPS—¿philoserf? (talk) 15:04, 9 November 2021 (UTC)