Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2

Within the discourses
I have removed the section "The Buddha's first discourse" and replaced this with the section "Within the discourses".
 * The new section provides multiple translations of the key four lines of the first discourse--and clarifies that these four lines are part of a longer discourse.
 * The new section also provides information on other sutras that elaborate on the four noble truths. (As cited by multiple sources, the Buddha taught on the four noble truths repeatedly throughout his life.)
 * The new section also provides clearer references to the wiki article on the first discourse (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta)

Regarding the old section "The Buddha's first discourse" that I just removed:
 * I could not find a single source for the translation presented in this section, which means that it was basically an original translation, which we should avoid in wikipedia. Dorje108 (talk) 22:34, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Perception and Criticism
I added a section about the western perception of the Four Noble Truths and about other Buddhist schools on the subject. I think it is importnat to be aware about diverse views on the subject and provide references for further knowledge or academic exchange.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 04:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you please take care of the flow of the article? "The western perception" is already covered in the previous section. And Nichiren has got it's own subsection.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   06:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Dukkha: Suffering in Early Buddhism
Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan

Hi Jonathan, I hope you are well. I noticed that you added a new reference to the article on the FNT here: Four_Noble_Truths

The complete reference is: Dukkha: Suffering in Early Buddhism, p.57 Kumar Rantan and B. Rao, Discovery Publishing House, ISBN 81-7141-653-5

Could you possibly provide the full quote that you are referring to in this reference? I'll try and work the quote in to a footnote if possible. The text itself is very expensive to purchase in the U.S.

Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 23:26, 9 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Dorje108. The reference was added by User:SafwanZabalawi with this edit. Hopefully he can help you further. The book can be found at Google Books, though; can you approach it in the USA? Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   06:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jonathan. I was able to find the info that I was looking for. I moved the reference to the article on Dukkha and added a cross-reference from FNT. Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 03:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Greetings, Dorje and Jonathan.
 * As for the reference ( Dukkha: Suffering in Early Buddhism, Kumar Rantan and B. Rao, Discovery Publishing House, ISBN:81-7141-653-5) – it is on googlebooks. The page I referred to (number 57) was available on the web but now it is not - while other pages are screened instead! However, on the same subject, here is a quote that can be an equivalent replacement on ‘perception’ or impression about the First Truth; it is from book : ‘Death, Contemplation and Schopenhauer’ page 68, Raj Singh ISBN-13: 9780754660507 Ashgate Publishing Ltd:
 * “The literal meaning of dukkha is sorrow or pain,…, the repeated use of the term and its literal meaning create the impression that the Buddha takes a gloomy view of human reality..”.


 * I take this communication as an opportunity to ask, why the section I added about ‘Perception and Criticism of the Four Noble Truth’ was deleted? The article seems to be tightly controlled to give a certain view – each view repeated in each and every school of the ten thousand or more Buddhist temples and sects!. This makes the article a study competition not encyclopaedia presentation. Why not have Theravada definition & Mahayana views in a simple short and clear presentation – and also the Perception and Criticism section? Criticism is not negative - it is a perspective to complete the article.Namaste.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 01:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi SafwanSabalaw. Most of the info in the section that you added was actually about the Nichiren POV, and Jonathan has kindly moved that info to the section on the Nichiren tradition. The point about the perception of pessimism is covered in the article lead and in the section on the First Noble Truth. I've also included a section on this topic in the article on Dukkha. Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 03:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your clarification. The preception of pessimism comes from variety of sources and deserves wider mention, and so is the teaching of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Buddhism - which deserves also counter perspectives if any. What I sense here is that the words " Perception and Criticism" are somehow deliberately avoided and its contents is widely scattered in a lengthy article in unrecognisable patches. This does not serve a better editing and presentation of the article, but I'll leave it as a comment.  Wikipedia is developing, and there may be an intention in the future to add the section "Perception and Criticism" to all articles of philosophical nature.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I think there is no use in a separate section on "Pereception and Criticism", exactly because the topic has been extensively covered throughout the article.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   08:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

"Fourth Noble Truths" is against Logic
If his fourth Noble Truths in brief are;

1.There is Misery & Sorrow in this World 2.The cause of misery & Sorrow is desire 3.The Misery & Sorrow can be removed by removing desire 4.The desire can be removed by following the Eightfold Path.

There is Misery & Sorrow in this World I agree,The cause of misery & Sorrow is desire also agree,The Misery & Sorrow can be removed by removing desire-okay But the desire can be removed by following the Eightfold Path!??

I am asking If we want to do a thing we should have a desire to do it! then in the 3rd Truth which says remove your desires and the last says desire can be removed by following the Eightfold Path, if the desire is removed in the 3rd Truth then how can we desire to follow Eightfold Path in the 4th Truth?

then you should have the desire to follow the Eightfold Path to remove the desire- it's contradicting, isn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azreenm (talk • contribs) 18:17, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Bodhicitta, my dear. My compliments; you turn a text into a living teaching, by commenting on it and asking questions. Nevertheless, this list is just one possible translation & interpretation. Another one is: together with 'misery & sorrow' comes the wish to ecape from 'misery & sorrow'Now, buddhism wants to show a mature way of dealing with misery & sorrow, by facing it, instead of escapism. Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   19:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Arising and re-ordering
The consequent translation of "samudaya" as "origin" hides the ambiguity of the term. Also, the consequent citation of a host of (modern) authors who state that the the four noble truths are the quintessence of Buddhism, is a subtle form of WP:OR. The 4NB are one of the forms in which the Buddhist teachings are expressed, but by no means the only one. and they are actuaaly quite ambiguous. MN36:42-43 shows this clearly: the 4NT are mentioned here together with a similar sequence for "the taints". And Bucknell (1984) shows convincingly that the 8-fold path, which is mentioned as the 4th NT, is a variation of a broader sequence. Various terms seem to be used synonymously, apparently as a result of redaction. This ambiguity should be shown in the article, instead of the harmonisation which has been taking place. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   12:07, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Reading through the previous discussions, I notice that I've raised similar concerns before. For example:
 * "I've noticed that the oldest sutra's contain a lot of lists. Often a term in one list refers to another list. And this other list may contain a term which refers back to the first list. Which gives me the impression that those texts and lists are not exactly what we westerners know as 'objective science', but teaching devices, heuristical tools. Therefore, maybe, just maybe, presenting the FNB as they are plainly presented in the sutra's is also interpretation."
 * For the last sentence, I might as well write now: presenting the FNB as a plain list of teachings is deceiving; they are not plain or clear. Not at all, once you start studying them, and see how chunks of texts are repeated and re-ordered throughout the Nikayas. This ambiguity and unclearness is being harmonised by the present article, which is, in the end, I think, misleading. With apologies for the use of this word.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   12:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that the following book is not being mentioned or used may be typical: Carol Anderson (1999), Pain and Its Ending: The Four Noble Truths in the Theravada Buddhist Canon.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   14:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Anderson (1999) p.79:
 * "When the four noble truths function symbolically, either in the setting of the Buddha's lifetime on earth or in the broader cosmos, they are not a symbol that represents a prelinguistic, non-discursive, or non-informative inner religious experience, as George Lindbeck asserts. Rather, they are an encapsulation of a particular body of claims about the Buddha and his teachings."

Anderson (1999) p.79:
 * "The truths denote more than the four enumerated truths; as a unit, they denote how the Theravada canon has remembered the Buddha's enlightenment and how the canon has recorded the means by which others may enter the path by acquiring of the dhamma-eye."

Anderson (1999) p.80 (emphasis mine):
 * "the fact that symbols are not readily reducible to a 'bottomline analysis'. The very nature of symbols rests in their multivalency. To reduce symbols to one level of analysis is to misinterpret the function of symbols."

Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   16:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Responses to Arising and re-ordering
Jonathan, I am repeating your comments here so that I can respond as needed.
 * Hi Dorje108. Thanks for your remarks and questions. I've added some extra subheaders. I understand, of course, that you're not pleased with all those changes. I made them because of some literature I found, especially Batchelor (2012) and Anderson (1999). Anderson is available as pdf at the web; I think you should read it. Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   13:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Jonathan, you have taken it upon yourself to rewrite and restructure the entire article without bothering to discuss you intentions. You are slanting the article reflect the opinions a few sources that appeal to you (e.g. Bezier and Batchler) and disregarding or downgrading areas of consensus among large numbers of reliable sources. Dorje108 (talk) 02:17, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Samudaya

 * JJ: "The consequent translation of "samudaya" as "origin" hides the ambiguity of the term."

According to whom? What sources? Most sources that I have checked (and that I have cited in the notes) use the term "origin". That doesn't imply that "origin" is the only suitable translation for the samudaya. But it is the most commonly used term in reliable sources, and therefore the most appropriate choice. - Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Brazier, Batchelor, Anderson. It's your conclusion, that it is "the most appropriate choice". You can say "Houses are build of stone", add many pictures, but that does not exclude the possibility that houses can also be built of wood. In this specific case: the fact that a lot of translators use "origin", does not mean that they are "correct". Both options should be noted - and the fact that there are various options is also worthy of investigation. It makes quite a difference!  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   12:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

One form of the teaching

 * JJ: "The 4NB are one of the forms in which the Buddhist teachings are expressed, but by no means the only one."

Agreed. The article does not state or imply that this is the only way to present the teachings. But it is the most often cited "framework". How many sources do you need to accept this? Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * See Bucknell (1984). It does not matter that it is the most cited framework; the fact is that there are various frameworks; why is it that this specific framework has been chosen, and does it do justice to the texts?  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   12:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Ambiguity

 * J: "and they [the 4NB] are actuaaly quite ambiguous."

You must be kidding? According to whom? Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, Brazier, Batchelor, Anderson.
 * If "samudaya" can be understood as both the origin and as the result of "dukkha"; yes, that's ambiguous.
 * The 4NT are mentioned as the quintessence of the Buddha's insight at the end of his path, including insight into the path to realise these insights. Hmm, he had just traversed that path, and then he discovered it?
 * According to Anderson, the 4NB have two functions in the NIkayas. They point both to the awakening of the Buddha, and to the path to be followed by his followers.
 * According to Schmitthausen, as referenced by Anderson, the 4NB are used at various places in the Nikayas to refer to the Buddha's awakening; at other places, other teachings are being used for that goal. So, what exactly was the insight the Buddha attained?
 * Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   12:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Synonym sequence for "the taints"

 * JJ: "MN36:42-43 shows this clearly: the 4NT are mentioned here together with a similar sequence for "the taints"."

At Wikipedia, interpreting primary sources is considered original research. Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * See above. This is the talkpage, isn't it?  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   13:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Variations

 * JJ: "And Bucknell (1984) shows convincingly that the 8-fold path, which is mentioned as the 4th NT, is a variation of a broader sequence. Various terms seem to be used synonymously, apparently as a result of redaction."

OK. Seems like an interesting secondary point, but hardly the main point in an article on the Four Noble Truths. I make this assertion having consulted dozens of secondary sources (and cited those sources within the article). - Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It is relevant. What is the Path the Buddha is referring to? The 8-fold? Or another one? The fact that an assumption has been repeated over and over again, does not the change the fact that it may be a "misinterpretation", or better said, reflect a change in interpretation.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   13:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Ambiguity and harmonisation

 * JJ: "This ambiguity should be shown in the article, instead of the harmonisation which has been taking place."

What ambiguity? What harmonization? - Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, those are harsh words. But there's ambiguity in the 4NT, which are not being shown when only the same interpretation is repeated over and over again. Again, try to fing Anderson (1999).  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   13:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Other comments
I will respond to your other comments when I have time. Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Re-ordering
Hi Dorje108. In response to your request for some explanations:
 * Lead: too long, with essay-like info
 * 1. Summary of the four truths. What are the four truths? Crucial info. Couldn't find it anymore in the mass of quotes
 * 2. Etymology: standard starter
 * 3. Function of the four noble truths. Background of the central role assigned to this teaching. See Anderson (1999)
 * 4. Appearance within the discourses: also standard
 * 5. Understanding in Buddhist traditions. provides a conteext for six.
 * 6. Interpretation. Grouping of info on the interpretation of the four truths. At the end of the article, after all the context has been provided.

What's lacking is the interchangeability; for example MN72:15 gives only the first three, and omits the path. SN35 gives repetitive lists of "arising and ceasing". The four truths summarize and symbolise these lists, as pointers or summaries of Gotama's teachings. That's relevant information, definitely more crucial than all the different translations.

Best reagrds,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:11, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I've expanded the section on the "Function of the four truths"; it shows that the four truths are not the summary of the Buddhist teachings, but function as such.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   21:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

First truth: dukkha
This section misses the point of "substitution": "Dukkha" is a short term for the "clinging-aggregates", that is, the five samskaras and the clinging they give rise too. The Samyuta Nikaya gives an extended overview of the six sense-bases, how they give rise to clinging, and hot this clinging is to be ceased. This is examplary of the Sutta Nipata: a list may include a term that refers to a longer list, and this longer list may incude a term that refers back to the first list. The section now focuses on the meaning of "dukkha", whereas this reference to the samskaras as the base for clinging is omitted. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:20, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The expanded section the "Function of the four truths" shows that there are many summaries of "liberating insight" to be found in the suttas. I think that they should be read "intertextual": referring to other texts, various texts, on the skandhas, their qualification as "dukkha, anatta, anicca", and the resulting "stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana" (MN26:19). The moment they come to be regarded as "stand-alone"representations of the Buddhist truths, and are being explained in a linear way, they lose their meaning. Compare the remark of Walpola Rahula:
 * "there are innumerable places in the early Buddhist scriptures where they are explained again and again, with greater detail and in different ways. If we study the Four Noble Truths with the help of these references and explanations, we get a fairly good and accurate account of the essential teachings of the Buddha according to the original texts."
 * Compare it to the talks of Krishnamurti: he never gives a "condensation" of his "teachings". Points are being made, and repeated elsewhere, in another fashion. And yet, one can get the impression "to get it", to understand what he means.
 * It's the same, I guess, with the Buddha's "teachings": they are "reports" of his talks, with lot of cross-references, and edited by later editors, to make them more "comprehensible", or linear. And yet, by reading them "inter-textual",", you can get a sense of what Gotama intended to convey. not by a linear interpretation, but by "cross-reading". Best regards,   Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   21:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

What's Buddhistic about the four noble truths?
Nice quote:
 * "Why is it the central teaching, and what does it teach? The 'truths' are just the same and just as fundamental in the Satikhya, the Yoga, the Nyaya systems and in medical science. There is very little Buddhistic in them." (F. I. Shcherbatskoi (1932), In Anderson (1999), p. 85

If the Wiki-article could answer that question...  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   06:14, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Too many quotes
Agree. A lot of them could be moved to WikiQuotes. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   20:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The overuse of quotations (Quotations) was described as the basic issue of this article by @USER:Tengu800 in January 2012. Since then about 50 additional quotes have been added.
 * I have inserted an over-quotation tag because "using too many quotes is incompatible with the encyclopedic writing style" (WP:Quote).
 * As a first step, I propose to remove the "Contemporary glosses" section ("Do not insert any number of quotations in a stand-alone quote section") and the quotes in note 2, 3, 11, 12, 24, 27 and 30 (but keep the refererences). JimRenge (talk) 10:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for at least discussing your proposal before taking action. The Quotations section is clearly referring the main body of the text and not to footnotes. I strongly urge you to carefully review the policy on the "overuse of quotes" before you take action on this. Note that the policy clearly states: Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit.


 * Regarding the quotes in the footnotes: The reason for including the author quotes in the footnotes is to aid the readers and editors, so that they can see exactly what the authors said in their own words. There are two reasons for this:
 * If many prominent authors are making the same point, that is to me very significant in how that point should be emphasized within the article. Any reader will know that the point being made is not an arbitrary choice by an editor, but the the point reflects a consensus among many sources.
 * I have come across many cases where a source and page number are cited for a point in an article, but when I investigate it becomes clear that the source is not making the same point that is in the article (e.g. the editor may have misinterpreted the point).
 * As far as the quotes in the main body of the article, the reason that I included many quotes is because the authors are expressing a point very clearly. To try to rewrite or paraphrase the quotes would take considerable time and effort to little effect. Certainly some of the quotes could be paraphrased more, but this task should be undertaken slowly and carefully. I see no benefit to the readers for make these changes hastily because of an arbitrary decision that there are "too many quotes". Regards Dorje108 (talk) 01:54, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jim that there are many quotes. Too call this "arbitrary" is itself arbitrary. The point is, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It should offer an overview, not an extended analysis. What's the relevant information?
 * Regarding your "consensus among many sources": this is a subtle kind of original research: you're propsing here a research-methodology, and draw conclusions based on that research.
 * Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:29, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it depends on the type of article that we're trying to create in editing. Convenience also plays a large factor; typically, readers don't want to track down a book, a page number and a line where something is being said. I agree where there would be such a small effect if we were to rephrase something in trying to not be plagiarizing. The presentation of information is best kept thorough and simple. A lot of quotes isn't a bad thing; we're not trying to fill space for nothing. We are filling a page with relevant information regarding a topic. In the case of the Noble Truths, where a large consensus is held throughout multiple authors, using anything but a quote seems almost insulting. Calling something arbitrary makes the phrase arbitrary; it doesn't actually matter, in that we're aiming for a single effect. That effect is to display information and be an encyclopedia.Complete turing (talk) 05:44, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that the "contemporary conventional interpretations" can be removed; they add nothing new.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   21:34, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Complete turing: " In the case of the Noble Truths, where a large consensus is held throughout multiple authors, using anything but a quote seems almost insulting." I think where a large consensus is held throughout multiple authors, using anything but a summary of the consensus plus citations seems superfluous.  JimRenge (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit late into this debate I know but just to say I fully support Dorje on the use of quotes. In the footnotes, it's a great help to have the quote especially when it is to a text you don't have available to read yourself. As for the text itself. Well these are quotes from scholars who have spent a lifetime searching for the best words to express the Buddha's teachings to a modern audience. I'd far rather read a quote by an eminent author such as Walpola Rahula (say) than a summary by some wikipedia editor who has maybe given their summary perhaps twenty minutes of thought, perhaps a couple of hours if very thorough. Especially in a topic that is so subtle and easily misinterpreted. And there's a blessing also involved in the quotes. I mean this - not in some mysterious mystic way. But - that when someone has thoroughly understood something and then puts it into words, then the clarity of their thought shines through the page, and makes it far easier for the reader, in subtle difficult to explain areas such as this. It is true that traditional Buddhist scholars also often receive the blessing of the sutras themselves before they start studying them. But I'm not talking about that necessarily. Just the shining clarity you get from the original text, the poetry of the words, the clearness of expression, which is unlikely to be there in an edit by a wikipedian who has given the matter just twenty minutes of thought. Robert Walker (talk) 00:43, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Decision about quotes needs RfC
Just to say - the discussion above about replacing quotes by paraphrases is by no means enough to conclude that this article is better with paraphrases.

We had two editors in favour of quotes and two votes in favour of paraphrase and only four editors commented so far. And none of the editors so far has conceded that the opposing view is correct.

For a major decision like that, about an article that is surely one of the top most important articles on Buddhism in wikipedia, then we definitely need a Request for Comment.

A RfC lasts for 30 days, giving everyone a chance to vote and comment and give the matter considered attention. And has a discussion section as well.

For difficult decisions like this, then often you need multiple RfCs. And - I think the discussion in this case would probably be concluded with the outcome of "no concensus" in which case the default would be to keep to the original version of the article.

And typically the article would be left in its original format until the conclusion of the RfC.

So, if I understand how this policy works, do correct me if I am wrong - we should restore to the version with the quotes first. And do an RfC. And if the outcome is no consensus, should keep the original format with quotes.

Robert Walker (talk) 14:46, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

More about quotes - need to avoid a "view from nowhere"
See Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ

""This most common objection to the neutrality policy also reflects the most common misunderstanding of the policy. The NPOV policy says nothing about objectivity. In particular, the policy does not say that there is such a thing as objectivity in a philosophical sense—a "view from nowhere" (to use Thomas Nagel's phrase), such that articles written from that viewpoint are consequently objectively true. That is not the policy, and it is not our aim!""

One of the advantages of quotes is that they are views expressed by particular scholars or authors. And you can go to their books and works to find out more. And - they are secondary sources, the sutras are the primary sources. So totally appropriate for this.

While paraphrases are not "views from nowhere" but are the expression of the understanding of some wikipedia editor. And you can't go to find out more about their works on the subject.

So - well my own view on this matter - particularly in cases of philosophy and religious exogesis, I think quotes are essential. You know where you are with a quote.

At any rate if you do paraphrase you have to be very careful to avoid this trap of a "view from nowhere" which is so easy to fall into in articles on Buddhism. Robert Walker (talk) 15:03, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Quotes are an exemption from copyright and should be used very sparingly
Limited quotation from non-free copyrighted sources is allowed, as discussed in Wikipedia's non-free content policy and guideline.

"Quotation from non-free sources may be appropriate when the exact words in the source are relevant to the article, not just the facts or ideas given by the source. Examples may include statements made by a person discussed in the article, brief excerpts from a book described in the article, or significant opinions about the subject of the article.
 * Quotation should not, however, be treated as an alternative to extracting facts and presenting them in plain language." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing/Quotation of non-free text)
 * "Quotations should be used very sparingly and must be clearly identified and formatted as defined in MOS:QUOTE." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing see moral rights)
 * "using too many quotes is incompatible with the encyclopedic writing style" (WP:Quote).   JimRenge (talk) 16:27, 27 November 2014 (UTC)




 * You can find plenty of guidelines in favour as well as against quotations,.


 * We aren't going to solve this by quoting wikipedia guidelines. Though they are useful to frame the debate.


 * See also:


 * Quotations - another set of guidelines which encourages use of quotes.


 * "Quotations are a fundamental attribute of Wikipedia. Quotations—often informally called "quotes"—provide information directly; quoting a brief excerpt from an original source can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to explain them in one's own words."


 * I think that relates to Dorje108's main point. That his brief quotes from the top Buddhist scholars sometimes explain things better and less controversially than a wikipedia editor's summary.


 * As an example of a situation where lots of quotes are recommended they give this example:


 * "Articles or sections about a short fair-use sacred idea, such as the golden rule, typically both discuss and quote it. If different expressions of it are held sacred in different traditions, this may involve a list of quotes to avoid giving any one WP:UNDUE weight."


 * I'm not sure if the 4 noble truths counts there, but it is kind of similar.


 * "Editors of controversial subject should quote the actual spoken or written words to refer to the most controversial ideas. Controversial ideas must never appear to be "from Wikipedia"."


 * So when there is controversy or differences of interpretation for the four noble truths, or any other topic in Buddhismd, then we should use quotes.


 * Advice on paraphrasing:


 * "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Long quotations crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information. Many direct quotations can be minimized in length by providing an appropriate context in the surrounding text. A summary or paraphrase of a quotation is often better where the original wording could be improved. Consider minimizing the length of a quotation by paraphrasing, by working smaller portions of quotation into the article text, or both. Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit."


 * Advice on formatting:


 * * "Intersperse quotations with original prose that comments on those quotations instead of constructing articles out of quotations with little or no original prose."
 * * "Longer quotations may be hidden in the reference as a WP:FOOTNOTE to facilitate verification by other editors without sacrificing readability."


 * So we should avoid making an article that is just a string of quotes, but need comments on them as well. That's what he does. And he has many quotes in footnotes - and that is recommended.


 * Robert Walker (talk) 17:11, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Sixteen characteristics
Any reason for moving them to notes (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths&oldid=630097157#Sixteen_characteristics)? Mahayana is the largest Buddhist tradition, is there any problem if I move them back? Ovi 1 (talk) 12:28, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've moved them into notes, because it's already a very long article. I've moved them now to a separate article.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   13:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Mahahatthipadopama Sutta
I've changed


 * "According to the Buddhist tradition, the Buddha compared these four truths to the footprints of an elephant:" (it was already attributed)

into


 * "In the Nikayas they are compared to the footprints of an elephant"

I've changed the accompanying note from


 * "The Four Noble Truths are regarded as central to the teachings of Buddhism; they have been compared to the footprints of an elephant"

into


 * "In Majjhima Nikaya 28, Mahahatthipadopama Sutta, "The Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's footprint", Sariputta is staged as saying"

and


 * "Some modern teachers refer to this sutra when stating that the four truths are central to the teachings of the Buddha"

My reasons: Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   08:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The comparison is made by, or attributed to, Sariputta, not the Buddha. If Sariputta made this comparison, we'll probably never know; it's a primary source, from a specific tradition with it's own religious agenda. We can only say that in this Sutra Sariputta is staged as making this comparison.
 * Some modern teachers regard the four truths as central to the teachings of the Buddha, not Buddhism in general. It's clear that "the Four Noble Truths are regarded as central to the teachings of Buddhism" is a generalisation and/or interpretation, in two respects. It's also clear that modern scholars see the four truths as a later addition to the sutras, and the term "noble" as a later addition to the four truths.

Suffering and the cessation of suffering
I've moved a quote from Rupert Gethin out of the note into the main text, paraphrased it, and added the passage from MN22:


 * "According to Rupert Gethin, the four truths are the "classic formulation" of the basic orientation of Buddhism, namely suffering and the cessation of suffering."

What Gethin says here is basically different from the introducing sentence in the note:
 * "According to contemporary commentators the four truths were taught repeatedly by the Buddha throughout his lifetime"

Gethin says that "suffering and the cessation of suffering" is the basic orientation of Buddhism, not that the four truths were taught repeatedly throughout the Buddha's life, nor that they are the essence of Buddhism. What's more, Gethin has taken one sentence out of its context:


 * "Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by some brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress."accesstoinsight, Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile

So, we have a statement from the sutras that the Buddha did not teach "the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being," but "stress and the cessation of stress." The last part is presented by Gethin as the basic orientation of Buddhism. And that statement is presented as a reference for the statement that the four truths were repeatedly taught by the buddha troughout his lifetime. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   09:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Lead
Throughout the years, readers have complained that they don't understand what the four truths are, when only the names of the four truths are given: I've simplified the lead; maybe we can skip the rest of the article now, or move it into one big note with subnotes? ;)  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   09:42, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths

Moved list downwards
I've moved this short list downwards, to the "Understanding in the Buddhist tradition". It does not give additional information to the long version from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, but may serve as an intro to the "Buddhist understanding" section. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   04:52, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Moved "Long version" downwards; renamed in "Structure of the four truths"
This section is way too long, and technical, for the start of the article. It fits better later on, with a better explanantion of the collections of terms in these expanded decsriptions. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   04:56, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Moved scholarly explanation upward; provides broader explanation
Paul Williams make clear that several translations are possible. The explanantion by Geshe Tashi Tsering is somewhat limited, ignoring the various possible translations or interpretations. This becomes clearer when first the Williams-stement is given. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:03, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Structure of the four truths
Especially in the extended description of the third truth, descriptions of psychological dukkka are given, dukkha-dukkhata. This is misleading; it's a modern interpretation, which emphasizes the ending of concrete pain, instead of the ending of samsara. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   06:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment on reliable secondary sources for articles on Buddhism
The RfC by Dorje108 states that:

"I propose that texts written by Buddhist writers and teachers that explain basic Buddhist concepts should be considered secondary sources as long as they meet the criteria specified in the guidelines (regardless of whether or not the writer has Western academic training). Do you support this?"

Please see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buddhism

Robert Walker (talk) 07:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Extent of the recent changes by Joshua Jonathan
This is on a point of procedure really, as I haven't been following this article as I have Karma in Buddhism.

I'd like to point out how extensive these changes are, done rapidly without much consultation on the talk page first. It is essentially a different article now.

Diff of the two versions of this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Noble_Truths&diff=635891831&oldid=629066305

This same editor has also made similarly extensive changes to Karma in Buddhism = and in that case, with no prior discussion at all on the talk page.

I have protested similarly on that talk page, see here: Talk:Karma_in_Buddhism

Whether they are justified or not, the process needs to be done more slowly. Shouldn't be rushed like this, with a major article, scholarly, many citations, and then to suddenly remove many sections, move others around, change the text, basically rewrite the entire article.

I recommend that Joshua Jonathan - that you save your new version of the article, to your user space, to not lose your editing and new text - and then do the changes one at a time rather than all at once.

Because some of them may be uncontroversial. And others may be disputed. The uncontroversial ones, after discussion, could just go ahead. The disputed ones would need to be discussed first before you make the changes. And in some cases, might be that there are editors that feel strongly both ways, in favour, and against the changes. In that case a posting to the project page, or third opinion, or a Request for Comment may be appropriate.

But when you rewerite the entire article, it's not fair on other editors, leaves it impossible for them to respond in a measured way to your changes. I would also like to point out that Dorje108, who I consider to be an excellent wikipedia editor, is at least temporarily no longer editing wikipedia as a result of this edit and the other edit on Karma in Buddhism which in a short period of just three weeks removed pretty much all the work he contributed to wikipedia for the last year or so.

Do you see what I mean? If not, I wonder if we should seek guidance on this, as to what is the proper procedure in a case like this? Robert Walker (talk) 14:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I support Joshua Jonathan's edits. Dorje108 is not an excellent wikipedia editor. He fills the Buddhism articles with quotes from modern popular authors, rather than academic sources. VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:42, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Well why did you not say anything before, why let him work on it for so long if that was your view?


 * I'd submit that Joshua Jonathan is not a good editor on this topic. I've been following the Karma in Buddhism article more closely, and there, Joshua Jonathan leads out his new version, with a wrong view about Karma

Copied to Talk:Karma in Buddhism To be continued there


 * ""The basic ideas is that kleshas ("disturbing emotions"),[web 4] cetanā ("volition"),[3] or taṇhā ("thirst", "craving")[12] create impressions,[web 5][note 7] tendencies[web 5] or "seeds" in the mind. These impressions, or "seeds", will inevitably ripen into a future result or fruition.""


 * Where, he is clearly talking about volitions at that point, not actions, or "karmic imprints", and he presents this, without citation, as a "view from nowhere", doesn't say who said this, it is just his own statement as a wikipedia editor. If I was reading that article for the first time I'd stop at that point as clearly the work of an amateur who doesn't know much about Buddhism. Just being blunt there. Perhaps he has some scholarship in other areas of Buddhism but in this topic this shows that Dorje108's scholarship is far superior to his - that he is editing from an actual understanding of Buddhist teachings.


 * I'm no scholar myself, but this is an elementary error that just about any educated Buddhist would pick up on, I'd have thought. Piya Tan comments "This famous statement is often misunderstood. " about this misunderstanding of the Buddha's short utterance in the Nibbedhika Sutta. It gives me no confidence at all in his edits. While Dorje108's article - I found an excellent one myself. And I don't know why you call the authors of his quotes "popular authors". Just because some of them are Tibetans who have studied Tibetan rather than Western scholarship? He choses Tibetans widely recognized as authoritative and knowledgeable about Tibetan Buddhism, not fringe popular figures whose scholarship is dubious. He mixes them with quotes from Western academics and from Therevadhan authorities. A good all round mix of sources I'd say myself of both Eastern and Western scholarship.


 * That's also why quotes are so much better. If you have a quote - and not just short one sentence fragments but long enough quotes to see what the author says, then you know that this is a statement by a recognized authority on the Buddhist teachings rather than some wikipedia editor.


 * But whatever your view on this - the pace and method is all wrong. Why let Dorje108 work on these articles from spring 2013, and then destroy his work so rapidly with almost no prior discussion - none at all in the case of the Karma in Buddhism article.


 * I've posted this to the talk page Talk:Karma_in_Buddhism I will investigate, and see if we have any case for user conduct and rollback anyway, if he doesn't revert his edits - I don't know if we have a case here, but seems at least possible we do, does no harm to just find out what we can do.

Robert Walker (talk) 12:27, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I have complained about Dorje108 before.VictoriaGraysonTalk 23:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I started working on this article in december 2011, and gave an extensive explanation of my changes then. From the start of the addition of all those quotes, several editors have taken issue with it, and some other issues:
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths
 * Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   08:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I have just had a short look at this, I haven't been following this article. But none of those discussions suggest that Dorje108 was a disruptive or problematical editor whose work deserved to be treated in the way you did with a sudden rewrite of the entire article. On the contrary they suggest, as is also my impression of him from my few interactions, a courteous, careful editor who listens to points made by others and edits with a spirit of collaboration. Certainly someone you could have discussed the changes with first. Robert Walker (talk) 12:34, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yet again, Dorje108 is a NOT a good Wikipedia editor.VictoriaGraysonTalk 15:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * So you say, and you support Joshua Jonathan. But my experience has been the other way around. Joshua Jonathan seems to have read many sources,with a preferences for Western academics. But he doesn't understand key ideas. Particularly, in the discussion and previous version of Karma in Buddhism he confused Intentions - which may or may not be accompanied by actions - with "Seeds" - a theoretical idea that just some Buddhists have, that there are imprints on the mind that result from the completion of actions that are responsible for karmic effects many lifetimes later. And he compounded the error by calling this a subtle distinction, which it is not. They are entirely different things - Intentions are from the very first stage, before an action has happened, and short term, soon over, and may not lead to action. Seeds are a theoretical idea from the very last stage - after completion of the action and continuing for lifetimes to transmit the effects to future lives, that is if you accept that they exist at all. To confuse such fundamentally different ideas gives me no confidence at all in him as an editor. While Dorje108 showed no such errors of understanding at all. As for his scholarship, see for instance this section on Karma within Buddhist traditions: User:Robertinventor/Karma_In_Buddhism Robert Walker (talk) 07:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Conventional explanations
I think that the "Conventional explanations" can be removed. They add nothing new. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   10:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Continue the good work!VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree, these "Conventional explanations"/quotes seem to be redundant. JimRenge (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Old age and karma
I've copied this paragraph from Four Noble Truths:
 * "The Kathāvatthu also records debate by the Theravādins with the Andhakas (who may have been Mahāsāṃghikas) regarding whether or not old age and death are the result (vipāka) of karma.(McDermott 1975, p.426-427) The Theravāda maintained that they are not—not, apparently because there is no causal relation between the two, but because they wished to reserve the term vipāka strictly for mental results--"subjective phenomena arising through the effects of kamma."(McDermott 1975, pp.426-427)

Interesting. If old age and death are not the result of karma, but tanha results in rebirth, then how the two of these propositions to be reconciled? Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   10:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Content Dispute
I didn't really want to get involved here, but I keep getting mentioned. Here are my comments. I can see that there is a content dispute about this article and about Karma in Buddhism. It is my understanding that two editors have made significant changes to these articles, and that other editors are complaining about those edits. Please read dispute resolution and follow one of the dispute resolution procedures. Since there are already more than two editors, third opinion is not in order. There seem to be multiple issues, and just voting between two significantly different versions of an article is not useful, so this is not a case for a Request for Comments. I would suggest taking the dispute to the dispute resolution noticeboard for assistance by a volunteer moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed large-scale restructuring
I've reverted to before Joshua Jonathan made his very significant changes. Such a large set of edits, good faith though they probably were, aren't exactly in the spirit of collaboration. Please discuss each chunk of proposed change here on Talk *before* reinstating. We're a team. Let's keep it like that. Thomask0 (talk) 06:10, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please don't insert primary sources.VictoriaGraysonTalk 06:31, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Dear Thomas0. You gave the following edit-summary:
 * "Reverting to pre-Joshua Jonathan edits. That user needs to allow collaboration from everyone else. The large-scale changes he has made did not sufficiently allow to R in WP:BRD. Please *discuss* these significant changes on Talk before reinstating."

Some comments: Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   06:53, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please be polite, and don't refer to me as "that user";
 * "Allow collaboration": I've explained my changes extensively at the talkpages; "everyone else" is totally free and welcome to participate there. You too. Dorje didn't, though; you're not doing so either.
 * " allow to R in WP:BRD": the R does not mean that you can simply revert to your preferred version, and marking a page-version as the preferred one. It also doesn't mean that you can remove sourced info, like Dorje did, and you did too. It means that you take serious the concerns of other editors, which Dorje has structurally ignored, and which you are also ignoring;
 * "Please *discuss* these significant changes on Talk before reinstating." - that's a good comment, and I hope you take it to heart.
 * If you want to revert to a previous version, then revert to the last version before Dorje started to fill this article with his quotes. And then discuss the addition of all those quotes. Doesn't sound attractive, does it?
 * The version I reverted to is not my preferred version. Your edits may be absolutely correct and justified, but that's not the point. The point is that they were done unilaterally without respect for the spirit of WP:BRD. As you are seeing now, someone steamrolling over your edits doesn't make for the collaboration upon which Wikipedia depends. You were Bold, I have now Reverted. So now we can discuss. It is not protocol to simply re-revert. Stick to the protocol Thomask0 (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thomas, I've explained my edits extensively, so if you want to dicuss, discuss. And if you wnat to be consequent, revert to the version before Dorje's edits.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   08:14, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

My edits were not "unilateral". They were preceded by three years of concerns with Dorje's edits, raised multiple times by multiple editors. This comment by Jim diff sums it up pretty well:
 * "The overuse of quotations (Quotations) was described as the basic issue of this article by @USER:Tengu800 in January 2012. Since then about 50 additional quotes have been added.
 * I have inserted an over-quotation tag because "using too many quotes is incompatible with the encyclopedic writing style" (WP:Quote).
 * As a first step, I propose to remove the "Contemporary glosses" section ("Do not insert any number of quotations in a stand-alone quote section") and the quotes in note 2, 3, 11, 12, 24, 27 and 30 (but keep the refererences).
 * JimRenge 10:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)"

Here's a longer list of the issues that have been noticed by several editors with the edits made by Dorje, beginning in january 2012: Explanations of my changes: Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   08:19, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2,
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 2
 * Ooer. My bad! I didn't realize those archives were there. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thomask0 (talk) 16:06, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thomas, regarding the links that Jonathan has provided above, half of the links are to old discussions that were settled amicably, and the other half are Jonathan's generalized justifications for his complete re-write of the article. You can find my views on Jonathan's edits here:
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Buddhism
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive872#Background_information
 * In addition, Robert Walker is preparing an DRN to discuss these edits:
 * User:Robertinventor/DRN_Notice_Draft
 * Note that Jonathan has just tried to get RobertInventor banned from Wikipedia for his part in recent discussions regarding Jonathan's edits. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive872#Topic-ban_proposal_for_Robert_Walker_.282.29) I am afraid that I did not do an adequate job of explaining the situation in this ANI discussion, and it resulted in a warning against Robert. Nevertheless, Robert has stated that he plans to go ahead with the DRN and I supporting him in that effort. Regards, Dorje108 (talk) 16:33, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey Dorje108, my concern was really just that there appeared to be a big chunk of unilateral edits that effectively broke WP:BRD, specifically the "Discuss" part. However, that's because I missed (I'm not new to Wikipedia, but I'm new to any kind of involved editing) that there were two archives of this Talk page which *do* contain "Discuss". You may be right that those archives are old but for me, a non-participant, to assess that would take more time than I can give. To be honest I only dropped by because I was looking through old pages I'd contributed to in the past; I haven't been on FNT for several years. I found that it had changed dramatically since I was here, and a *superficial* look through some of the recent talk led me to believe that the change had happened because it appeared that one editor drove most of it through without discussing. That's no longer clear, so I withdraw my concern. Good luck (to all) on resolving the current topic. My only advice on that would be for everyone to bear in mind the second noble truth ;-) Thomask0 (talk) 17:26, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * , please note that Joshua Jonathan requested that Robert Walker be topic-banned from this area, not "banned from Wikipedia". Another editor requested the site ban. Although JJ supported that request, he didn't ask for this remedy and so saying that JJ tried to get RW site banned is a distortion of what had actually happened. Ca2james (talk) 19:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification. Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 19:33, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Consolidation of footnotes?
I know something about this topic and got a great deal out of the page I had not known before. Thanks to everyone who works on it.

Is there some reason the page uses three separate sets ("web," "note," and plain numbered) of footnotes? I find it fairly cumbersome and a bit distracting, and it's not a system I've seen on other WP pages, where notes to paper texts and web references are typically combined. I'm not sure I see what's gained by it, and it seems clear what is lost (readability). Given that some footnotes include internal references to other footnotes, it is an awfully complex apparatus for what is already a pretty complex topic. I've searched the archives for the page and I don't find a discussion of how it got this way. To me it would seem preferable to have a single set of numbered footnotes, similar to other WP pages. Has this been rejected here for some reason? Is it too hard at this point to merge them all together (it doesn't seem to me that it would be)? Mr H3vnu83987 (talk) 22:13, 12 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The differences were introduced with the use of the format for references.  works easier when editing, especially when the same source is being references multiple times. The notes were separated from the references, to get a neat list of references, and to make clear where extra information can be read, and where "only" a reference is to be expected. Web-references were separated also for the neat list of references, using , but also to indicate a difference in "status" of the references, and to provide a neat list of external links. I hope this explains. Best regards,   Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:56, 13 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Meaning this is now a new global option? OK, I'll have to look into that. I don't like it, but if that's what the community decided, so be it. Should have been paying closer attention. Mr H3vnu83987 (talk) 12:41, 13 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I know about the separation between notes and references, which I don't support for a number of reasons, but I read lots of material elsewhere with footnotes and obviously have personal preferences that I recognize others may not share. Reading over | Referencing for beginners, | Footnotes, and | Template:Sfn, I'm not sure I see any recommendation for separating print from electronic resources. The neat list of reference links is desirable, but I see that accomplished on most pages (either with one consolidated list, or a few separate lists) without using three sets of notes, and is in part what author-date citation format is designed to enable, as several items on each of those pages indicate.


 * I do have a suggestion, which is just personal preference, obviously, but also closer to the way other pages handle this universal problem, which is this: either thread the items listed in "web references" among the list of "sources" (my preference), or list them as a separate section of "Web Sources", and then refer to them in the text via the list of references in author-date style, so that there would be only two sets of footnotes instead of three. I think this would be cleaner, easier to read, and more in the spirit of WP (which doesn't, as a rule, want to erect strong distinctions between online and print references sources), as right now there are at least a few web references in the "references" list (items 59, 62, and 63, at least), and a couple of items in the "web references" that have print equivalents that could just as easily have been used, and vice-versa, to say nothing of the electronic editions of books that are somewhat counter-intuitively not listed among the web references (my point being not that they belong in the other category, but that arguments could be made for one or the other, and readers looking for them may not know which category to check or why). It seems to me that this would be easier on the eye and make future upkeep easier. Just my .02, I don't plan to get heavily involved with this page or try to rally support for this as a "cause" etc., or start editing it myself. And again, my compliments on an excellent resource on the subject. Mr H3vnu83987 (talk) 13:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Lead - revision April 25, 2015 at 09:29
The lead, as edited by Pokerzen87 at 09:29, 25 April 2015 diff was well written, concise, and improves readership by eliminating one of the three listings of the Four Noble Truths (FNT) within the article before Pokerzen87's edit.

The paraphrasing of the FNT within the lead is good - it draws the reader into the article, especially since the first section is called "The four noble truths" and has within it the FNT listing (although at this time it is in the middle of the section and should probably be moved to the start of the section).

I also liked the elimination, within the lead, of the phrase "the basic orientation of Buddhism" which is repeated in the "The four noble truths" section.

In addition, I also liked Pokerzen87's appropriately mentioning that the FNT are foundations of classical Buddhism. Future development of the article should include the relevance of the FNT to contemporary Buddhism (e.g., Western and Secular Buddhism).

I felt Pokerzen87's rework of the lead was good because it avoids unnecessary repetition, improves readership, and allows for future development of the article.

I hope to reinstate Pokerzen87's edit.

PeterEdits (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Response by JJ: The lead we've got now is not perfect, but it's actually surprisingly difficult to give a good summary of this topic. Pokerzen87 wrote:
 * "The Four Noble Truths are a series of proclamations made by Gautama Buddha that forms the foundation of classical Buddhist doctrine. In addressing the spiritual hardship of sentient beings, the Buddha followed a fourfold pattern used by ancient Indian physicians: recognition of the symptoms, diagnosis of the illness, identification of the cure, and prescription of the treatment leading to the cure. Thus, the Four Noble Truths are viewed by Buddhists as the ultimate guide to the spiritual life--identifying both the cause of all despair and the way to liberation."
 * I see several problems:
 * "a series of proclamations made by Gautama Buddha" - they're not; they're attributed to the Buddha. They form a condensation of, indeed, a basic orientation within Buddhism. But to present them as a summary of Buddhism, stated by the Buddha himself, is a kind of essentialism;
 * "that forms the foundation of classical Buddhist doctrine" - no. You'll be hard-pressed to define what "classical Buddhist doctrine" is. The article clearly states that the four truths are the result of a historical development, and that the use of it in the oldest sutras has several functions;


 * "spiritual hardship" - that's anachronistic;
 * "a fourfold pattern used by ancient Indian physicians" - WP:UNDUE, it's not the most relevant info; and again "the Buddha": was it him, or was it "the tradition" that formulated and used this synopsis in this way?;
 * "the Four Noble Truths are viewed by Buddhists as the ultimate guide to the spiritual life" - no, they're not; they are a guide, but there are many. See.


 * Regarding PeterEdits comments:


 * the lead should be able to stand on its own; so, repetition of the four ttruths is acceptable, I think;
 * the lead summarizes the article, so the repetition of "the basic orientation of Buddhism" is not probematic;
 * I've already mentioned the problem with calling the four truths "the foundations of classical Buddhism";
 * I agree that the contemporary, and western, understanding of the four truths is relevant, since it is this understanding that bypasees the comnplexities.


 * Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:55, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * For those who want to state an opinion there is additional discussion at Helpsome's talk page. PeterEdits (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Please keep the discussion centralised, and respond here.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:25, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Helpsome

I thought the edit of the lead for Four Noble Truths was good. I regretted seeing it reverted by you and made reference to it in the Talk page. I believe I understand your reasoning for the revert, but I respectfully disagree and feel that reinstating the edits would improve the article and move it forward. PeterEdits (talk) 03:17, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The changes were very POV and completely unreferenced. It claimed "the Buddha followed a fourfold pattern used by ancient Indian physicians" where is there any evidence of "ancient Indian physicians" doing this? Helpsome (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The evidence for "ancient Indian physicians" is already within the article.
 * It is also at Dukkha.
 * Editors should have no problem finding additional good citations and elaborating on this important theme with perhaps something similar to this.
 * The lead needs to include the deleted phrase "the Buddha followed a fourfold pattern used by ancient Indian physicians"
 * PeterEdits (talk) 20:36, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * No, the article says "Buddha is often compared to a great physician" whereas the rewrite of the lede claimed "the Buddha followed a fourfold pattern used by ancient Indian physicians". Those aren't the same thing at all. Helpsome (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Understand your point and have incorporated it into the lead statement I added to the article. PeterEdits (talk) 23:34, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Agree. And it's WP:UNDUE: it's not relevant enough to mention in the lead. See my response at the talkpage. Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   20:48, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't agree. There is a section within the article that specifically details how the FNT appear as a diagnostic medical model and because of it the Budhha is referred to as a Great Physician.  If it is relevant enough to have its own section it is relevant enough to be in the lead. PeterEdits (talk) 23:40, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

End of copy; discussion can be continued here.

I have removed the following line from the lead:
 * "Because the Four Noble Truths are likened to a medical diagnosis, Buddha is often compared to a great physician."

It's still WP:UNDUE. The section in the article is trivial, consisting of one line, and an overkill of quotes:
 * "In the Buddhist tradition, the Buddha is often compared to a great physician, and his teachings are compared to medicine."

The line in the article is also inaccurate; the Buddha is not often compared to a great physician, he is sometimes compared to a physician. It's hagiographic trivia; nice to know, but not dispelling any essential information. It only becomes relevant when the context of this comparison is being explained: why was the comparison being made, by who, when? How come that an ascetic renouncer is compared to a worldy person? Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:39, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Physician
I've removed a large amount of quotes from non-scholarly sources. I've also removed the following sentence:
 * "It also emphasizes that the Buddha was presented as physician, or healer of the spirit, rather than as a meta-physician or someone who spoke of supernatural powers."

Three sources are given for this statement, only two of them mentioning "metaphysics," both from non-scholarly sources. The status of metaphysics is a crucial issue in Buddhism; see for example the rangtong-shentong debate in Tibetan Buddhism, the metaphysics of the Buddha-nature, or the anti-metaphisics of Madhyamaka. See also Pre-sectarian Buddhism. So, to make such a statement about the "presentation" of the Buddha needs much better sourcing than this. I've also removed the second note in this, with sources on the presentation of the Buddha as a physician. the combination of the two statements in this sentence - physician and meta-physician - is WP:OR, and the sources are kind of synthetic. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   06:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Experiential knowledge
I've merged the section on "Experiential knowledge" with the section on "Sacca" (satya); after all, that's what Gethin's quote is about. I've removed Chögyam Trungpa's quote from the notes; another fine piece of original research, in whcih the emphasis was shifted from "conceptual framework" to the modern "religious experience" framework. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:56, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Ironically, "experiential knowledge" is essential here. The statement "In the Buddhist tradition, the four noble truths, and Buddhist philosophy in general, are understood to be based on the personal experience of the Buddha." is an sich correct (tradition is indeed important in "the" tradition), but the term "noble" does not refer so much to the Buddha, as to the "noble ones" (plural). But the four truths have indeed to be understood personally; not the Buddha's "experience", but one's personal (contradictory term, of course, in this context) matters. So, I've added a short statement on this. The "original research" is in the combination of quotes and statements, and the statement that "noble" refers to the Buddha('s personal experience), instead of "the noble ones."  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   06:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Presentation in this article
It seems to be presented in a form that is very hard to understand especially for the non-practitioner? Life is suffering, Suffering is cause by desire, by understanding and mastering desire we can alleviate our suffering, the eightfold path is the guide to reducing our suffering. Anyone agree to revise the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:6FC0:10:EC4B:7D73:B7EC:4514 (talk) 05:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Have a scroll through the archives... But if "Life is suffering [...] reducing our suffering" is a proposal: no. Misplaced simplification which misses the meaning if the four truths. Taken literally, they say: "This life/wold is suffering; repeated incarnation (which means prolongation of suffering) is caused by desire; by self-restraint we can stop this reincarnation caused by desire; the eightfold path is the way to selfrestraint." Now, let's find a source for this specific interpretation, and reach concencus on it. No source; and probably also no concencus... Ad infinitum. Some even doubt if the four truths can be understood when you're not a practitioner. Maybe they can't; they look very simple, but they're actually a very terse condensation of a large body of teachings. When you know all those teachings, each piece of information recalls other pieces of info; together, they make sense. But on their own, without background? Difficult... Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   11:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

What happened to lead
Lead used to be pretty essential before and provided enough content to get idea of whole article that was always huge, it takes like 5 minutes to open on my older PC. So the question is that what happened to the lead? Delibzr (talk) 11:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC) (What happened to the sock? He was blocked indefinitely:, . JimRenge (talk) 22:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC))
 * You will find the answer to your question here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Buddhism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 (talk • contribs)
 * I don't think that link (it would be good if whomever provided it would sign the above), answers the concern at all. In fact, having read it I agree with (what I think is) Delibzr's point; the new lead is really quite inferior to the old one. I reckon that a majority of the visitors to a page attend to the lead without proceeding down the article, so as it now stands this article's lead is way too brief (i.e. it doesn't say enough). Also, not only did the old version provide more information, it gave what seems to me a much clearer formulation -- insofar as that can be done at all in discursive language -- of the FNTs. Some things I think could be done to find a middle way (hah) on the lead:


 * 1) The phrases "...is not the place to be" and "get out of it" are too colloquial
 * 2) The phrase, "...behaving decently, not acting on impulses, and practicing mindfulness and meditation" is too ... vague ... or maybe even glib? Reducing the Noble Eightfold Path to that feels like the FNT equivalent of saying that π=4.
 * 3) Why isn't it anywhere mentioned in the lead that some serious scholars (e.g. Lopez -- see his Britannica entry) argue that it's not so much the truths that are noble, but rather the people who gain insight (vipassana) into those truths?
 * 4) The word "start"in the second truth is ambiguous. It could be taken to mean that people start life without Dukkha and then, when they start craving, Dukkha "starts". Maybe "source" would be better. However:
 * 5) Overall, I think the current lead is making the same same mistakes I made several years ago in what I think is a (valiant but nevertheless unsuccessful) attempt to make the FNTs accessible to non-practitioners. As I later concluded, to a large extent, it's simply not possible to do that; they are just not accessible to anyone who has not experienced them.
 * Thomask0 (talk) 18:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. I really liked the comments you made some time ago Talk:Four Noble Truths/Archive 1. The "colloquial" language was an attempt to phrase the FNT is a more accessible language. Food for thought; I'll think it over. Thanks.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   18:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) I took the existing language and updated it, trying to make it very clear and concise in an accessible language without having a colloquial tone of voice to it. Hope this reads a little better to all of you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.88.235.34 (talk) 19:26, 27 April 2015 (UTC)