Talk:Fourth-wave feminism/Archive 1

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Opinions/Original Research
"It is no secret that social media and other forms of technology have made it increasingly and frighteningly easy to call people out on their missteps. The same platform that provides people with a voice, can also make them reluctant to project it." - this sticks out like a sore thumb. The first sentence is original research, the second sentence is opinion. It also uses really emotive language without attempting to sound more neutral (ie, informality of "it is no secret"; "call people out"; "provides people with a voice" and emotive: "increasingly and frighteningly"; "reluctant to project it") Wikipedia isn't a blog. Never edited Wikipedia before, so hopefully I've done this right/in the correct place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:8A52:2000:2033:E93D:C4A2:723F (talk) 22:53, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed - I have gone through and removed content similar to this that had blatant opinion and a non-neutral tone. A lot of this article was very emotive even after several others copyediting it - probably due to the nature of the topic being written about. I hope other editors find my edits satisfactory in neutralising the tones and messages of this article. -- NicoleElizabeth99 (talk) 14:39, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Online feminism
If this movement is synonymous with online feminism, then why is its start placed in 2008? The Internet rose to worldwide popularity in the 1990s. Didn't feminist ideas have a place in it earlier? Dimadick (talk) 19:42, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * As Bdevea1 mentions below, it's not the Internet per se that links to 4th wave, but rather the dominance of social media, particularly the Facebook news feed and Twitter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.16.246 (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article's focus on social media is very strange, somewhat tangential, and to me reads like original research rather than encyclopedic content. I'm curious whether all of the language around social media is the work of a single editor. CircleAdrian (talk) 07:26, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Additions to the page
I'm a Student at LSU in a Women and gender studies class and I would like to make some additions to this page. Those additions would include further info on the debate over whether or not we have actually entered a new wave, the influence of twitter and other social media (which gained popularity later than the basic internet), a world wide perspective on fourth-wave feminism, further differentiation between 4th and 3rd wave feminism, the involvement of more young women in this wave/how 4th wave feminism may be more accessible, influential figures/leaders in the movement, and possibly how this wave coincides with the 2016 presidential election. I still have a lot of research to do, but this is a brief outline. Thanks!

Bdevea1 (talk) 16:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)Bdevea1


 * It's nice to have an idea of what you want to put into the article, but in reality, when you are looking at the WP:Reliable sources, the information they hold begins to write the article. Good luck with your intended expansion! Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi User:Bdevea1, you might be interested in this section in the history of feminism and also an old version of this article. The section on "The Fourth Wave Feminist Summit at Yale" was deleted as it had no reference, perhaps you can find a reference and restore it.


 * The article by Kira Cochrane evolved into the book All the Rebel Women: The Rise of the Fourth Wave of Feminism, (chapter one is available on Google preview), that should also be helpful.


 * Personally I've found US-centric descriptions of a fourth wave to be quite 'spiritually' based, whilst UK descriptions, such as Cochrane's, tend to be more campaign-specific. An examination of dates / countries and specific people, like Malala Yousafzai, may also provide you with content. Hope that's useful. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 18:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I wish I had gotten to add more into the article but i had trouble finding proper sources for everything i wanted to add, as well as time being a general barrier. Thank you to everyone for all of your suggestions, sorry I did not reply sooner but I appreciate all of the help!

Bdevea1 (talk) 23:17, 21 April 2016 (UTC)bdevea1

opinion/paying attention for two seconds
first off the forth wave is commonly called the third wave so to needs to be pointed out a bit more often. second off 4th wave is not about helping women its about attacking men and is the reason why people believe in equal rights for woman and men but don't call themselves feminist so if someone has the time to add that first part (and second if your willing to risk the backlash) that be awesome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.39.210.117 (talk • contribs) 02:32, March 24, 2018 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, said to have been originally published online in conjunction with the Fall 2008 issue of Pacific magazine, might be useful. Then again, perhaps not. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Title
This should really be at Fourth-wave feminism, along with the third wave, second and first. I noticed move it today from fourth-wave of feminism. Does anyone mind if I (or Mr. Granger if he'd like to) move it again? SarahSV (talk) 19:15, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

just for our info: prior references in Wikipedia about a fourth wave
The fourth wave, real or not a few years ago, has been discussed in the Wikipedia Talk space, often with sources that might now be useful. In case they're of interest, here are some links:


 * Talk: History of feminism / Archive 3 # Wave 0 or 0th wave
 * Talk: History of feminism / Archive 3 # 4th wave
 * Talk: History of feminism / Archive 3 # 4 stages may not be waves
 * Talk: New feminism / Archive 1 # Dubious whether 4th wave of feminism exists
 * History_of_feminism&curid=573937&diff=554668285&oldid=554571294 (look in column of deletions for last paragraph ("A few since 2008 believe . . . ."))
 * History_of_feminism&diff=555236963&oldid=555227390 # Later development
 * Talk: Feminism / Archive 18 # Sources

I'm dubious whether 20-50 years from now historians of feminism will count exactly four waves through 2017 if waves start becoming more rapid and we have a new wave every 10-20 years. Technology can easily produce new platforms and media fast enough for that rapidity. But I guess there's adequate sourcing now for the notability of at least a fourth.

Nick Levinson (talk) 22:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC) (Corrected links: 22:17, 2 December 2017 (UTC)) (Corrected a missing link bracket: 22:22, 2 December 2017 (UTC))


 * , thanks for the links. SarahSV (talk) 22:23, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

trans-exclusionary radical feminism, "critiques" section of page
There really ought to be a section on the page that allows for critiques of the movement being trans-exclusionary (i.e. "pussy power," "future is female," pink hats in the Women's march). thoughts? Rsr788 (talk) 08:09, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * As always, you should start with WP:Reliable sources discussing the issue, then suggest an edit based on the sources. Binksternet (talk) 02:22, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Nassar/gymnastics not mentioned?
There seems to be a thread missing with no mention of the Larry Nassar, etc. events. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Nassar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.130.77.141 (talk) 01:30, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

As fourth-wave feminism became popular in the United States, other countries were also dealing with similar issues...
"As fourth-wave feminism became popular in the United States, other countries were also dealing with similar issues. Although the reactions of local governments differed, the movement of fourth-wave feminists in the United States had a significant effect around the world. Some local alternative hashtags to #MeToo included:"

The above quote from the article shows a problematic aspect of this article. The article posits the United States as the founder of this movement, while at the same time saying that the movement developed at the same time in other places. There is little in material from countries like Spain and Argentina that says they influenced by the USA. --LauraHale (talk) 10:32, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

White, cis feminism heavy in this article
Black and brown feminism and Transfeminism are massively key tendencies within an emergent fourth-wave feminism that aren't mentioned in this article. I don't have the time at the moment to make the edits of a quality sufficient to avoid being removed, but someone needs to <3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.162.244.211 (talk) 16:04, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

See: Transfeminism, [|Black feminism 21st century section], Kyriarchy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.162.244.211 (talk) 16:11, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Relevance to call-out culture
- I challenge your revert. Your rational was "Not the correct meaning here". This is straight from the cited reference: "It reflects the popularity of intersectionality as a theoretical frame for analysis and has created a ‘callout’ culture in which sexism or misogyny can be challenged". That emphasized part is in reference to Call-out culture; in that article in fact we used similar sources. —Srid YO 14:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


 * One more reference in regards to fourth-wave feminism and call-out culture: "Many commentators argue that the internet itself has enabled a shift from ‘third-wave’ to ‘fourth-wave’ feminism. What is certain is that the internet has created a ‘call-out’ culture, in which sexism or misogyny can be ‘called out’ and challenged." Munro, Ealasaid (1 September 2013). "Feminism: A Fourth Wave?". Political Insight. 4 (2): 22–25. doi:10.1111/2041-9066.12021. ISSN 2041-9058. —Srid YO 15:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The sentence you edited says "Whereas earlier feminists fought for and earned women greater liberation, individualism, and social mobility, the fourth wave furthers the agenda by calling for justice against assault and harassment, for equal pay for equal work, and for bodily autonomy." Here, "calling for justice against..." means to demand or request (call_for). That is not the same as call-outs or call-out culture.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

This article is conflating two different movements both calling themselves fourth wave.
The most common definition is the type of feminism made more possible by social media, which is absolutely not the same thing as the anti-trans feminism. Could the second one either be its own page or a subsection titled 'other movements describing themselves as fourth wave or something? Amekyras (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Which specific line are you referring to? &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 15:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There's a definite stream of feminism that objects to the erasure of biological sex that transexualism represents, and which has been labeled "fourth wave" feminism. In some places I've seen it conflated with radical feminism. Its adherents are typically labeled 'terfs' and rejected by proponents of 'third wave' or liberal feminism. Ref 'fourth wave women' on reddit and 'ovarit.'
 * I understand these aren't considered reliable sources on Wikipedia. I'm just pointing out that the definition of 'fourth wave' has been used to define groups very different than the ones this article seems to be pointing to. 2600:1702:10E0:2D40:D957:46B6:32A0:923C (talk) 19:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Timeline section
I recently removed Fourth-wave feminism. Instead of being based on reliable sources that are themselves presenting a timeline of the movement, our list is original research. Much of it is unreferenced, or cited to sources that do not mention fourth-wave feminism. The ones that are cited and provably relevant are often shown without any contextualizing info. My removal was reverted without explanation. Do others feel that a Timeline section is a good idea in general? Is the present version worth keeping? Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 03:10, 5 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi I am a student at CSUF, I believe that the timeline is a good idea and should be included however, it may need to be revised. I am not sure if anyone has any ideas or thoughts on what it should include. EvelynnRojo (talk) 04:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Propose Removing Stale Tags
Hi all. I randomly stumbled upon this article. I don't typically edit these types of topics, but I've noticed that these tags have been here for almost 3 years, and one of the original taggers has left. Perhaps we can remove the stale tags or propose some additions or changes to the article? Thanks.Stix1776 (talk) 11:10, 5 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I support removing the tags. Doing so is likely to either remove the eyesores or prompt fresh discussion of possible improvements. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 15:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Olympe de Gouges
The following sentence seems questionable; wasn't Olympe de Gouges from France, and her work published in French? "for example, the first wave in Spain took place in the late 18th century with feminist activism and publications such as Olympe de Gouges 1791 "La Declaración de los Derechos de la Mujer y de la Ciudadana", a declaration of the rights of women). Sascha (talk) 00:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
 * You are correct. The description of the edit which introduced this text states that its author added it based off an English translation of the source, and since they probably used an automatic translator like Google Translate and DeepL, things might have gotten lost in translation in the process.  I have undone that edit.  Thanks for pointing that out! --Kzkzb (talk) 00:32, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: WGS 300w Feminist Theories
— Assignment last updated by Kseliz (talk) 19:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Reproductive Justice as a Pillar of Fourth-Wave Feminism
The modern-day fight for reproductive justice and freedom is something that should be a key component to fourth-wave feminism. Although it is true that contemporary feminism has a large focus on intersectionality and sexual assault awareness, the fight for reproductive justice should also be listed as a focus for this wave, as it has been a major issue for young activists and voters. Since the Supreme Court's decision in the Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization1, global protests have been sparked over the overturning of Roe v. Wade2, and reproductive justice has indirectly been a catalyst for Generation Z producing the largest voter turnout the United States has ever seen in 2020.3 Although it’s sad that certain issues have been fought for so long that they carry over between different waves of feminism, this issue has significantly impacted every wave of feminism.4

1. “Supreme Court of the United States.” Accessed October 13, 2022. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/19-1392_6j37.pdf.

2. Ngo, Madeleine, and Lola Fadulu. “With Roe in Peril, Thousands Gather at Marches for Abortion Rights.” The New York Times. The New York Times, May 14, 2022. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/14/us/abortion-rights-march.html.

3. AbigailJHess. “The 2020 Election Shows Gen Z's Voting Power for Years to Come.” CNBC. CNBC, November 18, 2020. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/18/the-2020-election-shows-gen-zs-voting-power-for-years-to-come.html.

4. “National Exit Polls: How Different Groups Voted.” The New York Times. The New York Times, November 3, 2020. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html. GeniusSardonic (talk) 23:10, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Communication and Social Change
— Assignment last updated by Jjohnson220 (talk) 23:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

== North American sociologist Amanda E. Vickery claims that fourth-wave feminism marginalizes women of color who are fighting for inclusivity, neglecting the specific injustices they face to make way for the mainstream struggle. ==

This should be under criticism and not intersectionality. Kiwibiwi (talk) 19:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)


 * i agree lets move it! DrHeller (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Recent student editing
Hi, Ian, I've just removed some content from the lead, and some from a body section, each written by a Wiki Ed student in different courses ( at N. Arizona U, and at Radford U.) for reasons given in the edit summary. I don't have time to check their other contributions to this article (or others?) but someone should. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 03:00, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies-16
— Assignment last updated by Laziestllama27 (talk) 15:35, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

New Additions
Hi all, I'm a student editor for a women's gender and sexuality studies course and I plan on making some additions, mostly relating to the intersectionality segment of the article as well as the relation of the fourth wave to social media. 198.7.242.166 (talk) 02:40, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01
— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Misrepresented source
The third intro paragraph cites an essay from a Pacific University professor, but there are a couple of errors. First, it suggests that third-wave feminism excluded those particular topics. Not only is that untrue, the author doesn't appear to make that claim. Second, the quotation should be credited to the author, as I don't believe it's an official statement of the university.

I'm not sure what that third paragraph is trying to achieve, so I can't offer a rewrite. Is it even necessary? I suggest removing it or introducing new concepts/terms brought into the feminist discourse, such as mansplaining, emotional labor, and TERF. Agatehawk (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: University Writing 1020 Communicating Feminism TR 10 am
— Assignment last updated by Natalie5196 (talk) 15:48, 20 February 2024 (UTC)