Talk:France in the American Revolutionary War

Translation
This article is a translation of the intro from La France dans la guerre d'indépendance américaine. I did a first run, cleanup as needed. - AKeen 22:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks ^0^y Yug 12:17, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Good heavens, talk about crappy neutrality.
 * ... What means Crappy ? I'm not a native english speaker. Yug 10:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * crappy = merdique, nul :-)

I did all I can for the translation. However, I am warning you guys now that I am relatively new with French :\ -- 24630 4:15 pm, 3 July 2006

Proposal for deletion, and apology
Britain as official US trade partner? So far as I am aware, the United States does not and has never had "official trade partners." and I am an American. This article is inadequate, and I propose it be deleted. France's participation in the American Revolutionary War was vastly signifigant, but this article doesn't cut it, sorry. --V. Joe 23:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I deleted section on official trade evidence. Please notify me on my talk page if you restore it. --V. Joe 23:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * apology :
 * I was hasty in my call for deletions and I remove that request. What you've got so far is a fundamental improvement. Keep up the good work.--V. Joe 07:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Traduttore, tradittore ... (or why this article needs a total copyedit)
My first reaction to this article was that it was horribly vandalised. Then I saw it was translated from the french wikipedia article. Although it has been improved since then, it still needs some editing. I'll be coming here from time to time, but others are welcome to dig in too (:... --Victor falk 00:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

La Fayette gains...notoriety?
Under French involvement, paragraph 2.
 * "The war was benefiting from popular support, La Fayette was gaining notoriety, and the avenging spirit was ready to express itself."

Totally doesn't make sense. Htmlqawsedrftg (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Huge French debt
The impact of the war to French finances appears to be overstated in the current article. Robert D. Harris has re-assessed Necker's record on this, and he contradicts Calonne and the historian Marion in an article from 1976. French Finances and the American War, 1777-1783 The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 48, No 2 (June, 1976), pp. 233-258, The University of Chicago Press.

Harris argues that the deficit claimed by Calonne was fictitious, that Necker appears to have been putting the royal finances in order, and that the fiscal causes of the French Revolution should be reexamined. (Calonne did not economize upon taking office in around 1784, and he alleged that Necker had hidden a deficit.)

Harris arrives at 520M livres raised by loans by Necker from 1777 to his resignation in 1781, $252M by Fleury from May 1781 through 1782, totalling 772M livres.

Extraordinary expenditures for the same years: 1777-82 = 682M (plus 225M in promissory notes). Add to that 9M subsidies and 18M loans without payments until after the war, and finally the deficits of 1777 and 1778: 20.5M and 5.5M, respectively. (Lowering due to Necker's administrative reforms. In his loan edict of 1778, Necker claimed to have balanced ordinary revenues and expenditures.) The sum of extraordinary expenditures, per Harris, 1777-82, comes to 735M livres, only 37M less than the total extraordinary income received from loans.

Harris: "If these calculations are anywhere near correct, it can be seen that an ordinary deficit during the war years on a scale alleged by Calonne would have been quite impossible. The money raised by loans was practically all taken up to meet war expenditures. If there had been ordinary deficits, they would have had to be made up out of extraordinary income or loans. Obviously there was little or nothing left over to make up such deficits."

I propose wording that does not indicate the American War ruined France's finances.

Nelsthompson (talk) 19:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

France had a debt of 3,000 billion? French troops had to be transported over great distances, which cost about 1 billion livres tournois, and further added to France's debt of a little less than 3,315 billion. Htmlqawsedrftg (talk) 18:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * O.O !!!! Not 3000, but three billions and three hundred fifteen millions. That's a French to English translation mistake (fr: 3,315 billion = 3 billions 315 millions ) ! thanks for your notification.
 * Yug, former autor of the French article. 07:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Restore old Introduction

 * Hide is the introduction as write by user:74.170.56.51, he destroyed the article 3 times, and then put a bad introduction which was not reverted.
 * So, I corrected (see the change)
 * Based on the last good introduction available : 30 january 2008, by Valentinejoesmith
 * Yug 07:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Haley
Who is Haley and what purpose does that giant biased paragraph serve? The second one to clarify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.97.250 (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Haley don't display any famous historian of French or american history. Also, just "Haley" (without name) virtually means "every Haley on the earth" -> I deleted "Haley argue", and replace it by "Some argue". 220.135.4.212 (talk) 18:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

American Reaction to French Involement
The reaction in the colonies to the French entry into the war was not an overwhelmingly positive one, as it left a number of American officers unhappy. Notable amongst them was Benedict Arnold who up to this point had been one of the most fervent supporters of American independence, and the outstanding hero of the cause for his services in Canada and at Saratoga, was apalled by the alliance with France. The reason for this mainly stemmed from his early experiences fighting against the French in the Seven Years War where he saw the French and their Native American Allies commit a number of atrocities.

Combined with this was also a disgust for the French absolute monarchy, which was far less democratic than the constitutional monarch of the United Kingdom. To some this new alliance also seemed to combine with a growing elitism within the Continental Army, as demonstrated by the appointment of untried European aritstocrats such as Lafrayette over more expereinced American officers.

Overall many considered the new alliance a betrayal of the radical foundations on which the new Republic had been established. In Arnold's case this played, along with many other factors, a large part in his descision to defect to the British. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 00:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please get a source. Codik (talk) 23:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I too have some questions about the present version of this. I looked for a usable source and came up empty-handed. Perhaps we would be better off not commenting on "American Reaction to French Involvement." --Coleacanth (talk) 22:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the following line from the lead: Recognition of France's participation in the Revolution was mainly manifested in the United States' appreciation of French military heroes like the Comte de Rochambeau and the Marquis de Lafayette. --Coleacanth (talk) 22:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

This comment seems to be purely subjective more than anything else.

First off, ennemies of my ennemy are my allies. WW2: USA and UK allied with Staline against Hitler. Allying with such high caliber scum as Staline isnt a "betrayal of the radical foundations on which the new Republic " in your mind?

Second. The so democratic monarchy of UK was imposing unfair taxes, hostile acts and chauvinistic laws to protect UK citizens at expense of continentals, all this in the same time refusing any legal representation of continentals. That's for the democratic part.

Third. "Atrocities" Well atrocities had been committed on both parts and atrocities had been commited on american soil and on american people by british. And Georges washington himself had been defeated by french in that french and indian war, didn't look to be so hateful towards France some years later as you seem to pretend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.86.32.36 (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

a present day bias?
Is it me or is this is usual alternating the reality of the french support? "A naval and distant support". I don't think all the money, advisors, ground troops, resources, aside from their navy to combat the most fierce navy in teh world could be considered distant support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.4.140 (talk) 23:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC) this is all wrong dont leason to them :) thankss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.101.215 (talk) 00:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Broken Link
The first link in the English Bibliography does not work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.60.249 (talk) 03:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing it out. It has now been removed. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 04:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

merge articles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-American_alliance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.107.73.116 (talk) 00:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any need to. They are seperate, distinct subjects. French involvement in the war began before the alliance, with public opinion, covert assistance to the rebels (etc.). Even after 1778 France's involvement in the war wasn't confined to its alliance with the US. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

How many troops did France send?
From the article: "About 3,000 French joined with 2,000 Americans in the Siege of Savannah, in which a naval bombardment was unsuccessful. An attempted assault of the entrenched British position was repulsed with heavy losses.

"Support became more notable when, in 1780, 6,000 soldiers led by Rochambeau landed at Newport...."

Does this mean the French sent a total 9,000 soldiers? Thank you. Risssa (talk) 01:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Note that France's contribution was not limited to the American theatre. France fought in Europe, East Indies, in the Carribean and on the high seas. Blaue Max (talk) 09:55, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Did France send a total of 9,000 soldiers to the US? Rissa, copy editor (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

or American War of Independence

 * 16:54, 24 January 2015‎ PBS (Add British name for the war POV) (undo)
 * 00:54, 25 January 2015‎ Rjensen (Reverted edits by PBS (talk) to last version by Calidum)

Why did you revert the addition of "(or American War of Independence)" as it is the common name for the war in Britain? -- PBS (talk) 09:07, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Because this is an article on France and the United States, where that is not the most common terminology. Rjensen (talk) 18:11, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The article is about Frances involvement in the war, the war was between some British American colonies and the Britain, I point you to the MOS:LEADALT "When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph." The American War of Independence is a significant alternative name and so should be included in the lead. Do you have a policy or guideline reason for excluding the significant alternative name? -- PBS (talk) 19:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You need to read the rule more closely. It talks about the title of this article. The current title is "France in the American Revolutionary War".   There are a mere 10 Google hits for "France in the American war for Independence" And apparently none of them are titles.  My point is you have not found a  "Significant alternative name" for The current title "France in the American Revolutionary War". Rjensen (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The title of the article is a descriptive one (and a subsidiary title) of which part of the description is the name of the war. If you run the same Google test that you did above how many Google hits to you get for the current descriptive title? -- PBS (talk) 19:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * @Rjensen If you run the same Google test that you did above how many Google hits to you get for the current descriptive title? -- PBS (talk) 17:55, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I find about 110 scholarly sites for "France and the American Revolution" and "France in the American Revolution". Also many cites at [France "the American Revolutionary war"] These including scholarly books, articles and chapters with titles like "The war at sea: France and the American Revolution"; Dull, " France and the American Revolution seen as tragedy"; Sheldon, France and the American Revolution 1763-1778;  List of works relating to the French Alliance in the American Revolution; "Recent Books On France And The American-Revolution-An Essay-Review";  The American Revolution and the French Alliance;  Lafayette and the Close of the American Revolution; The Marquis de La Fayette in the American Revolution; etc etc. Rjensen (talk) 21:15, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is not about the "American Revolution" revolution but about the "American Revolutionary War" so we can discount all the searches such as "France and the American Revolution" and "France in the American Revolution". When you substitute in "American War of Independence" for "American Revolutionary war" what is the %age difference between them? Doing the search that you do:
 * [France "American War of Independence"] returns About 10,500
 * [France "American Revolutionary War"] About 7,440 results
 * ["France and the American War of Independence"] 8 Results
 * ["France and the American Revolutionary War"] 2 Results"
 * If instead of using scholar and use google books: and do a similar search
 * [France "American Revolutionary War"] returns About 24,300 none of the first 10 include French or France in the title.
 * [France "American War of Independence"] returns About 52,200 results and in the first 10 volumes The French Army in the American War of Independence (1992) and French Engineers and the American War of Independence (1995)
 * As you acknowledge this is a descriptive name and as the results show both names for the war are used why should the MOS guidance not be followed and both names for the war be included in the lead? -- PBS (talk) 13:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The article is very heavily about the relationship between France and the United States, but PBS Wants to use terminology that is primarily British, when Britain had very little to do with this particular relationship in terms of diplomacy, finance, public opinion and so on. In other words, the articles really about "France And the American Revolutionary war", And it says very little about "France, Britain, and the American Revolutionary war". Rjensen (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You have given neither a source based reason or a MOS guideline based reason for excluding the other common name for the war from the first sentence. -- PBS (talk) 19:32, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think PBS is motivated primarily by pro-British POV that is in no way called for. The article deals with France and the United States. We are talking about TITLES: there are only three books that match the pattern intitle:french intitle:"American War of Independence"; they are dated 1921, 1975 and 1992.  With only ONE usage in the last 40 years this is not a significant alternative title.  Rjensen (talk) 19:47, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * @Rjensen. (1) This is a descriptive title it is not based on common name. (2) Why is it that when you run one test you do not compare it with the other? Using the same search but substituting "American Revolutionary War" in place of "American War of Independence" returns five titles, three of which are based on Wikipedia content. -- PBS (talk) 20:28, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * To add the alternative title, you must demonstrate that it is a "significant" title. There has been only ONE use of that alternative title in the last 40 years. I do not think that is significant, and I think the reason you wanted is to upgrade the visibility of Britain where does not belong.  Not a single readers going to be inconvenienced in the least or misled at all by the current title.  Thus it does not help anyone, and it does not fit the guidelines. Rjensen (talk) 23:00, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither term is less significant than the other (particularly if one looks at the number of books returned -- which in this case is minuscule). As I said this is a descriptive title and as such "American War of Independence" is a common name for the conflict and ought to be included in the lead. There are two reasons for adding the alternative name. The first is that most English speaking people outside the United States know it as the American War of Independence, so add in the name to the lead helps those people not familiar with the American name for the War to recognise to which war the article is describing. The second reason is for internet searches. Without the common name in the lead, instead of the lead being returned in the search a different part of the article is returned which is not necessarily meaningful summary of the article. Searching on ["France "American Revolutionary War"] returns the lead:
 * "In the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), France recognized American independence in 1778, Went to war with Britain, and sent its army and navy as..."
 * [France "American War of Independence"] currently returns:
 * "French (left) and British ships (right) at the battle of the Chesapeake off Yorktown in ..... The French Army in the American War of Independence Osprey; 1991."
 * Which is not a useful summary of the article. Do you have any policy or guideline reasons for objecting to the addition of "American War of Independence" to the lead? -- PBS (talk) 20:06, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 29 January 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 14:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

France in the American Revolutionary War → Anglo-French War (1778–83) – I doubt this will pass based on the American WP:POV and WP:BIAS, but it would be easier to start from this article and expand than start a brand new one. The concurrent British-French warfare in Gibraltar, Balearic Islands, Central America and the French and British colonial possessions around the world had little to none to do with the American Independence. It seems incredible that conflicts in India between European powers should be considered part of it. I propose to rename it into a WP:NPOV title. Uspzor (talk) 11:37, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Blaue Max (talk) 12:36, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per COMMONNAME. -- Calidum  12:42, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * @Blaue Max and Calidum what is your evidence to back up your claim? -- PBS (talk) 13:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Google hits? Blaue Max (talk) 13:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Please give a link to the hits that you think show that there is a common name because this seems to be a descriptive title, and as such it defines the scope of the article, rather than this being a common name, which would be a different reason for the current title -- PBS (talk)


 * Oppose. No, we should not change the scope of this article to make it a completely different article because it would be easier to start from this article and expand. If you want an article on the Anglo-French War, by all means, write one. A new one. Egsan Bacon (talk) 16:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't said that I wish to change the scope of this article, I said that this article name is a truly wikipedian creation. Every google link is referring to this page, and google books and scholar don't return any result that isn't Wikipedia itself. I don't know how someone can say this is the WP:COMMONNAME.Uspzor (talk) 16:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I agree with Egsan Bacon. Rjensen (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose Separation allows readers who really are just interested in the French intervention in the American Revolutionary War, to find the information they need without hunting around the other article. Rissa, copy editor (talk) 23:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought of something else: I think the role France played in our revolutionary war is gradually being erased.  I looked through a brief history of the US from 1607-1800, last summer wherein I learned that all France did was help raise money for us, perhaps they held a few bake sales or something.  That American Revolutionary War three-part series that aired on cable a couple of weeks ago didn't even mention the French, although they did talk about Sybil Ludington and other assorted Americans heroes we never hear about. Rissa, copy editor (talk) 06:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * @Risssa "in our revolutionary war"! "without hunting around the other article" to which article are you referring? -- PBS (talk) 20:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * This is not policy based but the fact that the French Wikipedia article is called France dans la guerre d'indépendance des États-Unis staunced my support. —  AjaxSmack   03:03, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose - it's perfectly normal to have articles on wars and other articles on certain facets or fronts of the wars. Please do make the article you want, but leave this one here. Red Slash 04:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment It trickles me how WP:COMMONNAME could be used to defend a title that basically has no google, books or scholar hits, and practically exists only in Wikipedia, when there's others perfectly acceptable titles. But anyway, the consensus have spoken itself.Uspzor (talk) 05:36, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, a much better title for this article would be "France in the American Revolution" Rjensen (talk) 06:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

New Order, isn't that a musical group?
>....even a hero for aspirations for a new order inside France.

"New order" needs to be explained and linked. Readers new to this subject, for whom the term "new order" has no historical significance, won't understand what this means. Rissa, copy editor (talk) 00:12, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

1778?
>In the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), French troops fought alongside US soldiers against Britain in 1778. Shouldn't this be "....against Britain from 1780-1782" or 1780-1883"? Rissa, copy editor (talk) 00:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Was French troop deployment within British claimed territory as early as 1778 ? SEQUENCING: French troops are deployed into America after their Treaty of Alliance, a formal defensive treaty to protect American independence and trade. That treaty was a year before France extended their third military Pacte de Famille by the secret Treaty of Aranjuez (1779) to go on the offensive in a separate French-Spanish alliance of the Bourbon kings to acquire imperial territory worldwide.
 * - (The Spanish at Aranjuez promised not to make incursions into the American-claimed territory ceded by France to Britain in 1763.) But the Americans still accepted French and Spanish aid during the worst winter of the war, until Yorktown and an additional (French Court politics) Minister Vergennes-sponsored French loan in 1783.
 * The shooting war stops at Yorktown September 1781 : (1) because in December 1781 Commons narrowly won a continuance of American war and Lord North flinched, as the 'Country Gentlemen' in Commons threatened defection; they were patriotically joining county militias against the ever threatening French-Spanish invasion since 1779. In April 1782 the bill carried; (2) Rochambeau, who had relocated his French expeditionary force to New York environs, declined American suggestions for an offensive on Nova Scotia, the "Fourteenth Colony" of US Paris negotiations.
 * - The war-Prime Minister Lord North was ousted in March 1782, Commons and Lords petitioned George III to end the "American War", Lord Shelburne and the Whig peace coalition secured a Preliminary Peace with the Americans 20 November 1782, George III announced for American independence and trade in his 5 December 1782 Speech from the Throne to a public joint session of Parliament. Congress ratified Preliminary Peace 15 April 1783. Done deal between GB & US, without either one consulting with France. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 22:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 20 August 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No consensus to move. Natg 19 (talk) 23:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

France in the American Revolutionary War → France in the American Revolution – 1st This article name is really terrible, it's so terrible that I couldn't find a single phrase using it beyond Wikipedia itself, it simply don't exist in sources, books, articles or anything else. 2nd Just two paragraphs of the article are about France in the war, the rest is about its broad scope or other topics altogether. 3rd While I would prefer "France in the American Independence", "France in the American Revolution" seems to be more commom around. Other suggestions are welcome. AdjectivesAreBad (talk) 00:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is a bad idea given weak support by the sponsor. Rjensen (talk) 03:04, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. France fought in the war and was not involved (at least not as a country) in the American Revolution, which is a distinct topic. The current title also fits nicely with similar ones that follow the Country X in War Z format, such as Belgium in World War II and Great Britain in the Seven Years' War. Calidum T&#124;C 03:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You can disagree, but "France in the American revolution" has almost 10x google hits than the actual title, despite that half of them are copies of this page, and books too. And France fought Britain in its own war across the continents, with little to none relation with the American one. AdjectivesAreBad (talk) 03:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose the main article is called American Revolutionary War and this article's title isn't a set phrase anyways, it is a descriptive title. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:22, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the editor from IP 67.70.32.190. "[Country] in [topic]" articles should generally use the article titles established for the country and topic in question. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 12:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge proposal, August, 2020
The debate over whether to merge the Anglo-French War (1778-1783) article with this article is occurring on the Anglo-French War (1778-1783) Talk page -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:49, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * agree -- Wendylove (talk) 13:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you make thar point here at all Wendylove? Eastfarthingan (talk) 14:54, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

The intro is a tad confusing.
In the intro, it says that French involvement began in 1776, but goes on to reference its first act of support as having happened in 1775 -- all in the same sentence. It's possible that it is trying to say that the Thirteen Colonies was established in 1775, but in any case the language is unclear. The intro:

French involvement in the American Revolutionary War of 1775–1783 began in 1776[1] when the Kingdom of France secretly shipped supplies to the Continental Army of the Thirteen Colonies when it was established in June of 1775.

Should the language be clarified a bit here? Xelpollodiablox (talk) 01:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

1776 or 1777??
The article frequently goes back and forth between 1776 and 1777 as the start of aid. Each time it fails to cite a source. Is there a document that was signed by Louis, ship manifest or something that dates aid? At one point it talks about Franklin arriving in France in Dec 1776 to negotiate aid then in the following sentences it says that aid was flowing and was millions of "dollars"(whatever the money was) by the spring of 76. Citation is needed throughout. Xcerptshow (talk) 07:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

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