Talk:Frances Bean Cobain/Archive 1

Name usage

 * Please remember when editing this article that it is proper to refer to the subject by their last name, not their first! Pacian 09:51, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes but referring to her as 'Cobain' instead of 'Frances' would easily be misinterpreted as a reference to her father. Averisk
 * How about "Ms Cobain"?? -- 201.78.233.162 00:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that would probably work best. Sarge Baldy 00:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Frances Farmer
So now, with the latest addition, we have the schizophrenic paragraph that follows:


 * Frances Cobain was named after the lead singer of The Vaselines, Frances McKee. Her middle name is 'Bean' because Kurt thought she looked like a kidney bean on the ultrasound. She is often said to have the distinctive features of her father. Frances was named after Frances Farmer, a woman fron Seattle that was committed to a mental institution in the 1930's for being a strong willed woman. She ended up with a lobotomy and died in 1952, all because she wanted to be an independent woman, see "Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle". She was NOT named after the Vaseline's singer.

Well, was Frances named after the singer, or after Frances Farmer? We can't give two contradicting versions like this, unless we can attribute them to different sources. Everyking 23:49, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * There seems to be a lot of debate on where the name came from. IMDB is one source advocating the name did not come from Frances Farmer. Most Nirvana fan pages I can find say the same   . Sarge Baldy 04:53, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

I restored the old version because it seems more likely. We might want to include a sentence about how some people think she was named after Frances Farmer, I don't know about that. Everyking 05:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Frances just recently knew about the details about her father's death, by her mother." - what date is that referring to? Relative times like "recently" make no sense in an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. Yogi de 15:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I am rephrasing that page as it also is worded in an ambiguous way such as to insinuate that her father's dead was literally BY her mother. Pacian 09:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Cobain's mother waited until she had turned 13 to tell her the circumstances surrounding her father's death."
 * This is a bit dubious, since she is 12! Could someone recheck their source? Sarge Baldy 16:22, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was about to say... john k 23:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Was going to comment about that too. Plus, she must be a very sheltered child to not know what happened, although I guess that depends on what those "circumstances" are. 17:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think we should include both, just in case...--FlareNUKE 23:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Courtney was actually the one who told Frances about her father's suicide, when she was 7 years old.

I'll take Courtenay Cox for Francesca on her own wedding (or whatever) on Sept. 2001 or whatever. THANKS for playin.' 24.69.75.43 (talk) 19:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Chronology
This is a bit confusing: "After her father's death on 4 April 1994, custody of her went to her mother until the latter was arrested after an OxyContin overdose in October 2003." So she went into her mother's custody until 6 months earlier? Can someone clarify this? Bjornkri 09:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * October 2003 is 6 months earlier than April 1994? Sarge Baldy 10:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Hah! Right, sorry about that, my number-blindness kicks in again... Bjornkri

GOOGLE THE JOHN BOYD ACTIVITY I SAW FRANCIS BEAN COBAIN AT THE CIRCLE JERKS SHOW ON 1.4.08 AT THE FONDA MUSIC BOX BUT FAILED TO GIVE HER MY PRANK CALL CD'S SADLY,SORRY BEAN,NEXT TIME I SEE DREW I GIVE HER A FEW JUST FOR U!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.6.176.201 (talk) 12:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Name
Excuse me but the general concencus seems to be that frances was indeed named after frances farmer, the evidence is there. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.11.42 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC).
 * Evidence is where? I don't think people here have a preference either way, but at least my own attempts to research suggest that most sources see her as being named for Frances McKee, and, although a popular rumor, not for Frances Farmer. Sarge Baldy 01:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Request deletion
The subject of this article is a child. She may have been dragged through the newspapers by her parents, but she has not herself done anything noteworthy. There is no justification for this article. Individual children should not be discussed by name on Wikipedia, for their own protection. I request a vote for deletion. --Doric Loon 12:23, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * As a forewarning, you might first note that this article was proposed for deletion about a year ago, and that since that time has been considered noteworthy enough a topic for inclusion on both the Finnish and Swedish Wikipedias. If you would like to continue, however, feel free to append the code to the top of the article, and then follow the steps listed at WP:VfD. Sarge Baldy 00:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, it seems that she solved that problem: she now has given interviews and was the (willing) subject of a feature article and photo spread in September's Teen Vogue. --Delirium 09:51, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
 * This article was only nominated for deletion because someone mentioned it in the Vfd for the article about Britney Spear's baby. --Fallout boy 04:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

It is mentioned that she is a fan of American Idol and attended the season 5 finale. This is impossible since season 5 has barely started. Did the writer mean Season 4 or should ths line be deleted? User:TruthHurts 03:09, 27 January 2005
 * Good point, I believe I made that addition and it was an error. The date they attended was May 25, 2005.Case 23:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

03-01-07

I think the article sounds like its about her father and mother. I mean you could just include it in the beginning as links to the respective wiki pages. Probably needs an update and filter out some of the details on her father's demise. I mean it just seems that the statement "her father committed suicide when she was ?? " well its just an opinion

blueboy

07-12-10

I also request this page for deletion. So far she has done nothing valid with her life for it to be on Wikipedia. If anything, this should be a redirection to Kurt Cobain under "Legality issues". She doesn't need her ego boosted any further. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbiallen (talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

abbiallen



Speculation
"On 1 April 1994 was the last time Frances' saw her father alive. The two of them played and Kurt sang to his daughter. He told his daughter before leaving that she was his everything and that he loved her."

This is speculation. If no one can back this up with proof within the next few days I may erase it.

"A few days later on 5 April 1994 Kurt Cobain headed up to greenhouse. He looked at how much his beloved daughter had grown and head up the staircase."

I KNOW this is false. I am 99% sure that Courtney was in L.A. at this time and I assume that Francis was with her. Either way, it is even more speculation that is not backed up by any source. Flyerhell 09:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I don't trust this information. It also definitively states that Kurt Cobain commited suicide, and there is definitely not consensus regarding that. Sarge Baldy 09:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I added a clean-up tag and unverified tag to this article. If I get some free time I will attempt to clean it up, but it will take a lot of work to verify the article and correct the grammar. Flyerhell 09:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"Court records that referred to the minor child or had references to domestic violence, were sealed." - This confusing sentence at the bottom is actually speculating about what might be in sealed documents. Probably should be cut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.216.135 (talk) 07:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC) that comment is now supported and linked, and revised, so should not be cut unless you are trying to whitewash things.Meat Eating Orchid (talk) 18:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Picture
http://www.urbandictionary.com/images.php?imageid=6777 (though a bit dated).
 * It would work, but there doesn't appear to be any copyright information included. In the FAQ section on the site, it says that it's the responsibility of the submitter to check copyright so it's not necessarily ok to use   Averisk 21:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That would be a rather nice picture, but unfortunately its copyright status remains unclear. Sarge Baldy 23:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

In case you really want to use that picture, a better quality picture can be found on various websites, and credit goes to Kevin Mazur who took it. I have some photos that she has taken of herself that can be found on Facebook/MySpace. Are there copyright issues here? Stateoftheloved (talk) 23:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Jew
Courtney is Jewish, which makes Frances Jewish also.
 * No it doesn't. "Jew" is not a "race", it's an ethno-religious identity. She's only a Jew if she identifies as a Jew. Sarge Baldy 02:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, Courtney is not jewish, and Frances isn't jewish either. Not that it's a bad thing, please don't get me wrong, but they're really not.

I think it's funny when people feel they have to point out there is nothing wrong with a fact like, "She's not Jewish." It goes without saying there is nothing wrong with being or not being Jewish, so no qualification is necessary. And Sarge Baldy is right - it is not a race, but an ethno-religious identity. There are no genetic tests to determine one's religious identification.--DavidShankBone 18:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

actually, jews refer to themselves as jewish, especially if their MOTHER was of jewish or hebrew descent. that is how it is officially determined. Religion? we are talking about descent. That's family and bloodlines, not religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.130.114 (talk) 09:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

So wait David.. Wait.. What you are saying is that a person doesn't have to be a part of the ethnicity that they are a part of if they do not identify with it?24.115.19.178 (talk) 07:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Kurt leaving rehab (statement)
He checked himself out of the rehab center that night and returned home to Seattle.

The Kurt Cobain article on qikipedia doesn't have this. It states he just climbed over the fence and left, which is possibly to be understood as "ran away". Which one is true? Both?

I can't fix the one article which is wrong (referencing WP as an information source is a bad thing, right? Right). Someone do this?

--Cyhatch 17:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This might be a little too late to make a comment on this, but for any issue that may arise in the future, in the Anthony Kiedis book Scar Tissue, he makes a comment about escaping from the same rehab that Kurt Cobain escaped from previously. Kiedis states that Cobain could have walked out as he was a voluntary patient (where as Kiedis was on some kind of legal lockdown), but he chose to escape over a wall instead. So if anyone wants a reference as to what actually happened, that would be a good starting point. Sky83 (talk) 16:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Maynard James Keenan
can someone expand on this trivia point? wtf does Maynard James Keenan have to do with the shirts? did he create them?GURT 17:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

^I'm having the same issues, the sentence isn't clear enough. Can someone with more information edit this please? Shaybear♥
 * yes he created the shirts and sold them online. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.214.138.165 (talk) 22:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Page location
Shouldn't this page be at Frances Cobain? The middle names of people aren't generally included in the title of their WP articles - her father's page isn't located at Kurt Donald Cobain (I realise that a re-direct does exist at that location but the main article itself isn't at that location........) ChrisTheDude 11:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's because she's just better known with her middle name intact. --FlareNUKE 07:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the name "Bean" isn't just a middle name, it is also a nickname and she is known by it. At times she has been called just Bean and that has been also publicly used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.126.77 (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

As she gets older...
I wonder if she'll launch her own music career, in the manner of Kelly Osbourne? I know this isn't really talk page material as it's violating WP:CRYSTAL, but it'll be something to watch out for in the future...--HisSpaceResearch 16:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

""He checked himself out of the rehab center that night and returned home to Seattle.""
Dind't Kurt Cobain scape? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.241.38.16 (talk) 23:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC).
 * That's what it says on his offical page. I don't know if it's been changed here yet, but he did escape. No Stahr (talk) 02:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Article is icky
It is. --FlareNUKE 04:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please elaborate. 212.139.171.139 16:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, it's a rude article with lots of overly persuasive writing and little compassion/interest for Frances herself. I'm going to change it up. Mistertruffles 01:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty much, it has more to do with Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain than Frances herself, the title "Early Life" also implies that she is now much older when in fact, the "Early Life" is right now all she has. --FlareNUKE 03:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * When I wrote 'please elaborate' I hadn't read the article thoroughly.Man, I just read this article through, and it's pointless. It's more about Kurt and Courteny than about Frances. And you're right about the 'early life' section. She's still in early life. How do you nominate an article for deletion? Nukleoptra 17:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to nominate an article for deletion, but I second the motion. This article it IS completely pointless. Halfempty85 01:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't remove it. I think she's notable enough to deserve a page. However, it needs serious work, even if that would involve reducing it to stub form...Suzarella 03:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No new notes in over a year? delete me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.151.94 (talk) 02:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
I've done my best to do something with this article, but it still needs a lot of work.. I've also added the only image I could find that these isn't a copyright issue with.It's not a very clear one, but it'll have to suffice for the moment. I also removed the neutrality tag, as I couldn't see the problem with the article in that respect to begin with, and I can't seem to find any discussion here. Hope that's alright Suzarella 17:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I've just cleaned up some grammar and sentence structures, no biggy! Stateoftheloved (talk) 23:19, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Dating Kyle Campbell?
An editor has been adding this information to the article. The first several times it was unsourced. Then the source was a fan site and I couldn't see where the information was on there. Now the information is sourced by a reference to a recent VH1 documentary. I haven't see the documentary, so I don't know how accurate this is. My main concern is that I can't find this information anywhere. Google doesn't even turn up anything on this guy--let alone him dating Frances Cobain. Has anybody see the documentary? janejellyroll 09:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I haven't seen the documentary, but even if she is dating someone, particularly someone who is just a member of the public, it isn't of encyclopaedic importance and really shouldn't be in the article. 81.159.135.83 21:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And it's not really fair on the kid, documenting her dates at such a tender age. ;) Nukleoptra 19:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture?
This picture is absolute crap. Surely someone has a better one? You cant see her at all with this one. (I have one with her and courtney but im not sure what the copyright is) Ka5hmir 07:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

wrong death date
"Kurt Cobain was found dead in his home on the morning of April 8, 1994. " on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain sais it was 5 April (i remember to be 4 .. but maybe 5 is the official date) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelye (talk • contribs) 11:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

He died on either the 4th or the 5th (coroner was never conclusive). He was FOUND on the 8th by a repairman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.122.143 (talk) 08:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion for Non-notability
Doc_glasgow replaced this page with a reidirect to Kurt Cobain. That doesn't seem right to me. While she's obviously famous because she's the daughter of Kurt and Courtney, that doesn't mean she hasn't become famous in her own right. WP:NOTE says "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." There have been dozens of articles about her, and probably hundreds that mention her in connection to Kurt or Courtney.

It's also hard to take concerns about her privacy too seriously when she doesn't seem shy about talking to the press Binarybits 19:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That's beside the point. She is a minor, she is 15, and only notable as a child of Corban. This article contains personal information that will always be linked with her name - this simply isn't encyclopaedic. We are not a celebrity gossip sheet. I'm considering putting this up for deletion, but in the meantime the redirect should be restored.--Docg 20:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see anything in the rules about minors being ineligible for notability, and "isn't encyclopedic" isn't an argument. The voluminous press coverage she's received, including multiple interviews in major publications and dozens of articles about her years after her father's death, suggest she's become notable in her own right. If there's inappropriate personal information that should be removed, but that's not grounds for removing her entry entirely. Binarybits 16:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

She has done interviews and photo sessions with the US media, so therefore she is in the public eye. There will always be interest in Francis Cobain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.202.79 (talk) 14:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

She isn't notable. All of her "notability" is in relation to her parents, Love and Cobain. Her page contains nothing worthwhile whatsoever. 206.125.94.244 (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely agree that this should be deleted. Pages like this, which look like they're ripped from Seventeen magazine, is why Wikipedia will never be taken seriously as an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.157.121 (talk) 09:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a very clear standard in place for notability and this article does not meet any of those items. Based on Wikipedia standards this article clearly is not suited for inclusion in any encyclopedia and should be deleted. Evan1261 (talk) 20:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Victoria burge
75.66.68.37 and 75.66.85.89 have repeatedly added the following sentence: "She also knows Victoria Burge. While her mother was filming The People Vs. Larry Flynt in Memphis, TN, the two attended The Maria Montessori School for a short time." I have no idea who Victoria Burge is. She doesn't have a Wikipedia page, and there's no evidence of notability. Adding random, trivial information about completely non-notable people seems obviously unencyclopedic. Binarybits (talk) 18:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The person who is adding this stuff is also adding it to other pages, and appears to be attempting to evade oversight and blocking by using multiple IP addresses; further similar edits may therefore reasonably be regarded as part of a vandalism campaign, and the accounts/IPs blocked on sight for block-evading behavior. -- The Anome (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Victoria Burge is actually really well-known in certain parts of the country. She's a pretty popular singer in Tennessee and has had a few hits down there. She was covered in the Commercial Appeal and a few other papers in that area. People would probably be interested to know that they know each other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cookiebabycool (talk • contribs) 02:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

High school?
Does Frances attend a high school? Since she's turning eighteen in August, I assume she is a senior. There are no details on her high school education. ★ Dasani ★ 07:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

an american singer?
Why is she an american singer if she only sang in one REM song as a guest. To me she is still only Kurt's daughter and her future remains unknown. It's a little premature to say she is a singer, she has done nothing in music yet! absurd ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.135.3.218 (talk) 19:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This makes no sense
"She is an only child, raised solely by her mother after her father's death when she was twenty months old.[4]"

Except for the times she has been taken from her mother and all the stage hands who her mother dumped her on while on tour, and except for pretty much everyone who had to help her drugged out mother raise her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.170.240 (talk) 05:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

AND, I wish people would stop with the "only child of" thing. That's clearly very dear to someone but NOT factual at all. It's an assumption made by an apparently naive and uninformed person who doesn't realize that she may be the only child who has been publicized, but who knows how many he really had? Where did Kurt Cobain ever say that he had only one child? please provide that quote, and that link. I guarantee it doesn't exist. Therefore that very wishful assumption is not VERIFIABLE and inappropriate to this type of subject matter. If you're not personally well acquainted, then you simply don't know the most private details of rockstars' or really, any celebrity's life, and shouldn't presume facts not in actual provable evidence. Thanks.Meat Eating Orchid (talk) 09:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you are overthinking things. Even if Cobain had had another child (which, as you mentioned, has never been publicly acknowledged if there is another one, or two, or more), Frances is Cobain and Love's only child together. Whether or not she was raised by stage hands, they did not have any other children together (and we should know, as they were only together for two and a half years before Frances was born). Estheroliver (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * By that standard we can never say anybody is an only child; it is impossible to prove a negative. Until and unless another known child of Cobain emerges, I don't see any problem with describing Frances as Cobain's only child. john k (talk) 03:26, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, NEITHER PARENT nor any grandparent, has ever come out and said that she is the only child of kurt's so this false assumption should not be used. In most cases of a historical "only child", it is indeed verifiable and family members actually back it up. But some of us, knowing the families involved, would never come out and say that about this particular case. And the text does not say anything about her being the only child that the two parents had together, so the word "only" should not be used, since it would also require further clarification that she is the only child BETWEEN THE TWO PARENTS. Just leave it out, since doing so would be appropriate and indicates ONE child, but without the false implications of saying "only". People assume there are no other children of EITHER parent and that is just not likely, well supported, historically proven, or factual at all. It is a mere presumption. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.126.77 (talk) 23:11, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A bit late, but I don't see why the article shouldn't say that. There are plenty of "normal" only children (married parents who have just one kid) on Wikipedia, and their articles cite such a fact. There has never been a requirement that we must use the family members to back up her only child status. Doing so would not imply that we would have to explain further. If you are "only child of ___ and ___", well, that's that. Anybody who speaks proper English would understand that this means the couple had a child. We have it stated on both Kurt and Courtney's article, yes, ~*~*~TA DA~*~*~* Frances is their only child. Selena Gomez and Sonny Bono were like this as well, only children by default even though the parents moved on and remarried. Why this should be left out? Adding back to the article. ★ Dasani ★ 04:37, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

New sources
Doesn't look like these have been incorporated into the article yet, both from major media outlets:

Cheers, postdlf (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Legal issues sounds rather dubious.
I'm sorry but my first thought when I saw legal issues was to scroll down quickly and see exactly what kind of trouble the young lady had got her self into. Though the legal issues pertained to her she had no legal issues her self. 24.115.19.178 (talk) 21:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

References.. are all outdated and 404ing
Really it amazes me how some elitist members of wiki leaks can argue over semantics of things yet.. They don't know how to form permanent links for articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.57.7.99 (talk) 17:04, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * A bit late on this, but are you referring to me? I'm not a member of Wiki Leaks, and I didn't write the article. I noticed the people who titled and referenced Cobain's work were mostly overeager fans who probably didn't know how to format. Not my problem, I only made some grammatical fixes. ★ Dasani ★ 18:45, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Crazytalk
This makes no sense (bolded portion):

Cobain's early years growing up were in Seattle and Los Angeles, where she attended classes of aesthetics, animation visual art and literal creation.

It's also not cited, so I'm deleting it.

Sugarbat (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The song "Rape Me" by Nirvana
The second paragraph of the Early life section reads:


 * Before Love gave birth to her daughter, there were rumors suggesting that she used heroin during her pregnancy. This scandal intensified when Vanity Fair published Lynn Hirschberg's article "Strange Love" that alleged Love admitted to using heroin even after learning of her pregnancy. Along with husband Kurt Cobain, Love maintained that Vanity Fair took her words out of context.[7] Eventually, child welfare services launched an investigation questioning their parenting abilities. The investigation was eventually dismissed, but not without a significant amount of legal wrangling and Cobain being removed from her parents' custody for a short time, beginning when she was two weeks old.

Methinks it would be worthwhile to add an additional sentence to said paragraph, one that reads:


 * The incident lead Kurt Cobain to write the song "Rape Me."

Of course, one would want to provide a citation for this new sentence if one were to decide to add it. One source is the book CoMe aS YoU ARe: The Story of Nirvana by Michael Azerrad.

Methinks the fact that events that took place in Frances Cobain’s prenatal life inspired a song makes this notable and worthy of inclusion. Thoughts?

allixpeeke (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Your use of "methinks" not once, but twice is annoying, but nevertheless, after nearly 7 months of waiting, this is ✅. Lithistman (talk) 03:51, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Frances Bean Cobain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130622035732/http://www.undercover.fm:80/news/10994-the-vaselines-record-second-album-after-20-years to http://www.undercover.fm/news/10994-the-vaselines-record-second-album-after-20-years

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 11:50, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Removal of picture
There is a hidden comment in the infobox saying not to remove the photo without discussing it on the talk page. Well, I am being bold by removing the photo and starting this discussion at the same time. To quote the comment, it says: "...Wikipedia isn't about only using "good looking" pictures, we use free use until another one is available.". The simple counter to that is we don't have to have a picture at all. My problem is not about whether this is a "good looking" picture, it is about what benefit the reader would gain from it. In this case, the answer is quite obviously "not much at all". There are thousands of pictures of Cobain on Google images if somebody really wants to see what she looks like. Having this photo is of no benefit. This is not the only biography on Wikipedia that will be lacking an image. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:21, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * But when a free use image is available why not use it? Just because you think it looks "bad"? If an image is available for use, why not use it here? I don't see your reason for removing it. Nesnad (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the editor has answered your question very well already (and I agree): "[I]t is about what benefit the reader would gain from [the picture]. In this case, the answer is quite obviously 'not much at all'."  In this case, no picture is better than a technically and aesthetically bad picture of the subject.  General Ization   Talk   18:19, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * This isn't a beauty magazine? Wikipedia is based on facts and presenting facts. We shouldn't be hiding and changing things to make someone "look good"! It's just presenting facts regardless of aesthetics. Nesnad (talk) 03:00, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It was not a question of making someone "look good". The image in question (File:Frances_Bean_Cobain_Jan_2015.jpg) is both technically and aesthetically of very poor quality, and does nothing to give the viewer a realistic impression of the subject.  There is equally no policy that says we must have a photo just to have a photo if it does not provide a reasonably high quality depiction of its subject.  General Ization   Talk   03:08, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Give me the Wiki policy link that says it must be aesthetically please to be on a page? That's nonsense. The picture helps to identify subject. It's not like it's *that* bad of a picture, you just seem to be a "fan" or something and don't want to use the picture because it is less than flattering. This isn't about being a fan. It's about helping the reader to be able to identify the subject. Nesnad (talk) 03:52, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, alas, it is that bad a picture. And, actually, I have not the least bit of interest in Frances. And indeed: no reader would be able to identify Frances from that photograph.  General Ization  Talk   03:57, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I was able to use that image to identify her, so you are just being biased. Wikipedia is about being open not having a bias for things that "look good". We need some more opinions up in here. Nesnad (talk) 04:00, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Wiki policy link WP:IRELEV: "Poor-quality images—​​dark or blurry; showing the subject too small, hidden in clutter, or ambiguous; and so on—​​should not be used." Now please stop wasting our time and look for a useful photograph, or move on to something else constructive.  General Ization  Talk   04:12, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That image is not too small, nor is Ms. Cobain hidden by clutter, nor is it overly ambiguous. It is simply not flattering. And you want a flattering image so you fight against it. A pity really. But stubborn Wiki users such as yourself will step in I suppose. Cheers, Nesnad (talk) 08:43, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

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