Talk:Francesco Borromini

Sources?
Where are the sources for any of this information?

Epitaph
Can someone translate the italian on his Epitaph? Blahm 02:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Francesco Borromini from the Ticino,

Knight of Christ,

who

is an architect with an eternal reputation

divine in the strength of his art

who applied himself to the adornment of the magnificent buildings of Rome

among which are

the Oratory of the Filippini, S. Ivo, S. Agnese in Agone,

reworking the Lateran archbasilica,

S. Andrea delle Fratte,

S. Carlo on the Quirinal Hill,

the temple building of the Propoganda Fide,

and also in this temple (S. Giovanni dei Fiorentini)

he decorated the High Altar

not far from this grave stone

near to the mortal remains of Carlo Maderno he was found

near to the city and his relative (Carlo Maderno)

in peace he rests with the Lord.

Tamarat (talk) 21:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC) P.S. It's Latin not Italian!

Born in...
He's not technically born in Tessin as the canton of Tessin/Ticino is a XIXth century creation (1803 to be precise) nor in Switzerland. So he's born in the "baliaggi ultramontani" (in italian), or the "Ennetbergische Vogteien" (in German), or the "baillages italiens" (in French) that can be translated into "the Bailiwicks Beyond the Mountains" in English. 81.62.101.24 09:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This argumentation is in fact very technical. It is true that the Ticino did not exist as an independent canton at the time. However, the name "Ticino" certainly predates Borromini. It is derived from the Ticino River that crosses the area. At the time of Borrominis birth the Lands of the Ticino were definitively part of the trans-alpine dominion of the Swiss Confederation. That’s why they were called “the Bailiwicks Beyond the Mountains”. 128.240.229.67 (talk) 22:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Italy did not exist at his time, so it cannot have Italian nationality. Coccodrillo (talk) 08:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * If we should abide to that "rule", the same goes for Cola di Rienzo, Petrarch, Dante Alighieri, Gian Lorenzo Bernini, and many, many others. Is there some particular reason for excluding Francesco Borromini from being an Italian? Antique Rose &mdash; Drop me a line  05:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * While all the people you cited lived in what is now Italy, and probably always saw themselves as Italians, italian-speaking Swiss and Sammarinese don't. According the rule of language, Reinhold Messner should be German or Austrian instead of Italian, Barack Obama would be British, Fidel Castro would be Spanish and so on. Coccodrillo (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Francesco Borromini was a Swiss-Italian.

See: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.147.196.158 (talk) 08:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources:


 * "Francesco Borromini." World Book Encyclopedia. J. William Rudd, M.A., former Dean, College of Architecture and Planning, University of Tennessee, Knoxville.
 * "Francesco Borromini." Encyclopædia Britannica. Christian F. Otto. Professor of the History of Architecture, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York.
 * "Francesco Borromini." Historical Dictionary of Switzerland.
 * "Francesco Borromini." Enciclopedia Italiana. --93.147.196.158 (talk) 08:53, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The two sources cited in the article are both wrong: Encyclopædia Britannica (note 2) says that he was "born September 25, 1599, Bissone, Duchy of Lombardy [Italy]", while World Book Encyclopedia (note 1) says that "Borromini was born in Bissone, in what is now Switzerland". As it was said before at the time of his birth Bissone was part of the Swiss Confederation, since the Swiss annexed this territory around 1512 from the Duchy of Lombardy (which, by the way, was not in Italy). Francesco Borromini was of Italian culture, but born in Switzerland. I don't know what is the standard in Wikipedia for multicultural states like Switzerland, Belgium or Spain, but I think "Swiss Italian" is a better definition. Coccodrillo (talk) 10:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally, I'd remove the nationality field from the infobox. He was an architect from Ticino, this is all we need to know in the introduction. I don't think there was a Swiss nationality at the time and he had no Italian nationality. IMHO infoboxes should contain easily verifiable facts such as the birthplace and date and not hypothetical informations. mge o  talk 17:39, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That's true, the concept of "nationality" is more recent (at least in the sense of citizenship used in Wikipedia). Coccodrillo (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I removed the nationality from the infobox for the reason I mentioned above. Please don't readd it until a consensus is reached. mge o talk 11:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree on that. But Is till don't agree in writing only "Ticino" in the field "born in". For example, on the article Pope Alexander VII in this filed it is written "Siena, Grand Duchy of Tuscany". Francesco Borromini was born when Bissone was bailiwick of the Old Swiss Confederacy, so I think it should be noted. Coccodrillo (talk) 18:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, I have no objection to that (I don't think Ticino was a sovereign state at the time, unlike Geneva at the time of Rousseau). We should probably do the same for the place of death for consistency. mge o  talk 20:24, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hallo, I added Borromini's ethnicity in the lead, per WP:OPENPARA. The discussion above is a typical example of the confusion which arises when the two concepts of ethnicity and nationality are not understood. Before Italy's unification in 1861, the concept of "Italian" (like that of "German" before 1870) was purely ethnical. Borromini was born as a subject of 12 swiss cantons (NOT of the Confederation), in what at that time was technically a possession of those cantons in Italy: the "Italia Svizzera", as it was defined, not "Svizzera Italiana", which is a concept born with 1803. So he was as much Italian as Gian Lorenzo Bernini, who was born in the same period in a city (Naples) that at that time was an Italian possession of Spain (the "Italia Spagnola"). Mentioning his ethnicity is necessary in the lead, since Borromini became as artist part of Italy's culture and art history. Moreover, he left his home village as a child, and all his work took place in Italy. Mentioning his birth region (today's Ticino) in the lead is also crucial, since he came from a region (the Lombard lake region) which since the time of the Maestri Comacini gave birth to countless artists. Alex2006 (talk) 05:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The issue is being debated again. For me it's ok to mantain "Italian architect born in today's Ticino". Barjimoa (talk) 21:26, 16 April 2018 (UTC)


 * For me too, as per above. "Swiss" is an anachronism. Alex2006 (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Possible info for the article
In the episode of Simon Schama's Power of Art the episode for Bernini also has some excellent info, naturally, about Borromini. I don't know whether there is anyplace in this article for mentioning that series. If those of you who take care of this article think it merits a mention please add it with thanks. If you don't that is fine too. I just wanted to make you aware of it. Thanks for your time in looking at this. MarnetteD | Talk 21:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)