Talk:Francesco Tortoli

Birth date and other issues
Is this article about the same man who Eisenbeiss, in his book on Barbaja, describes as an "up and coming young scenographer"? User talk:Rococo1700 wrote the original article today as follows below. But in the 1820s he would have been in his sixties!! Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:07, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "Francesco Tortoli (born in 1760 in Florence, died after 1824) was an Italian painter and main scenic designer, working in the Teatro di San Carlo in Naples. He brought Don Gregorio by Gaetano Donizetti to the stage in Naples in 1824."

After posting a note on User talk:Rococo1700's talk page asking if there was any more information available and stating that I was confused, I received this reply:
 * Please do correct. I'm just reporting facts. Maybe there are two Tortolis? Also the line between painter and scenic designer is a thin line, most biographers list them as being both.Rococo1700 (talk) 20:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Based on the confusion now existing (for instance: could this Tortoli be the nephew of a man born 12 years later than him), I am removing the additions which I made today.
 * It appear to me that there could be three people named Francesco Tortoli:
 * Francisco Tortoli (painter): born 1860 (one ref. supports that)


 * Francisco Tortoli (scenic designer): In charge of pyrotechnics at the San Carlo, who Eisenbeiss describes as having possibly been involved in the 1824 fire. (SEE: Eisenbeiss, Philip (2013), Bel Canto Bully: The Life of the Legendary Opera Impresario Domenico Barbaja. London: Haus Publishing. ISBN 1908323256 ISBN 978-1-908323-25-5, pp. 129-130). He says that by 1824 Tortoli had become the head of the San Carlo's stage machinery and the head of the artificial fireworks unit and refers on p. 265 to Mancini and Ragni 1997, p. 89 as being the source. (See Mancini, Franco; Sergio Ragni (1997), "La scenografia sancarliana all'epoca di Donizetti", in Donizetti e I teatri napoletani. Naples: Elektra.)


 * Francisco Tortoli (impresario): who Ashbrook states had the authority to sign contracts (p. 606) succeeded Barbaja after his contract came to an end in 1824, and who appears to have signed a contract with Donizetti to write Don Gregorio. Reference available online here


 * Does anyone have any idea how we should proceed with this..............................???? Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:07, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Viva-Verdi, the birth date of 1760 is wrong and that's where all the problems start. Note that it is based on a book published in 1821 by Giovanni Battista Gennaro Grossi (a lawyer, aristocrat, and amateur historian and essayist, not a specialist in the theatre). Mancini and Ragni (1997) who are much more authoritative, give the birth date 1790 and the death date as 20 May 1824 . Note that this makes sense of everything else. In many of the libretti from the period, Tortoli is listed as the "allievo" (student) of Antonio Niccolini (1772-1850), e.g. this one from 1818. Although he is described as an "impresario" in the business with Don Gregorio, this is only because he had the authority to sign and negotiate contracts (along with his uncle Niccolini) for the Royal Theatres in Naples aftrer Barbaja's departure, and the term is used rather carelessly by Ashbrook. In fact, Tortoli was doing that even earlier. Here's a contract Tortoli signed on Barbaja and Niccolini's behalf in 1822. This book (originally published in 1892 and re-published in 1970) laments the death of the scenographer Tortoli as premature. If he were born in 1790 and died in 1824 at the age of 34/35, this makes perfect sense. In fact, Rossini (1992) by Mauro Bucarelli states on p. 296 "Tortolj morì molto giovane, nel 1824" (Torolij died very young, in 1824). The 1860 birth date is completely off the wall. Where did that come from?. Voceditenore (talk) 09:06, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the work on this article! Your sources are far better than mine. However, the article was created by Rococo1700 and that is where I found what he/she had written, saved with the comment:
 * (←Created page with 'Francesco Tortoli (born in 1760 in Florence, died after 1824) was an Italian painter and main scenic designer, working in the Teatro di San...')
 * It seems that the painter born in Florence in 1860 could be accurate, but the rest........ Viva-Verdi (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

The article is far more interesting than anything I had an inkling of. And I had no inkling. Good work.Rococo1700 (talk) 04:15, 7 March 2014 (UTC)