Talk:Francine Néago

Review comments
Some suggestions for improvement as the article is expanded:

Espresso Addict 21:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Template:Infobox Scientist should be added
 * Photograph should be added
 * Basic biographical information including date of birth required
 * Article should be divided into appropriate subheadings
 * Information on research should be expanded
 * References should be converted to inline format, with reference list rather than external links

External links modified
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Article
This article on a well-known primatologist has multiple reliable independent sources, so its presence here seems more than justifiable. The very recent Causette claims are disputed, so I have added details of the controversy. We must not take sides, either assuming Causette is correct or that it is false, but may report that the controversy is occurring with suitable references. I have added links to the Facebook page where the active debate is taking place (without assuming anything about the correctness of what is being said), and to a brief statement by Le Figaro on its action as a result of the debate. I have therefore stated in the lead only that a debate is taking place. No doubt we will be able to add more later. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:20, 30 March 2016 (UTC)


 * A broken ref is not a cause to remove a link: it may be tagged, or mentioned on a talk page. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Use of self-published materials

 * @User:Kurgbe: On the use of Neago's CV to fill in details of what she claims, I think the refs are just what is required. The Causette debate will certainly result in increased clarity on the validity of Neago's claims, and when it does, we will certainly add new facts, either that her claims are false or that they are substantiated independently. The basic fact that she is very much a public figure of long standing (especially in France, but also in Indonesia and to an extent elsewhere) is also extremely clear from the news reports of the last few days. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC)


 * @Chiswick Chap No your statement is incorrect: please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources
 * In particular:
 * Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.[7] Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so.[9] Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.
 * Please DON'T remove the warning at the top of the page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurgbe (talk • contribs) 20:16, 30 March 2016 (UTC)


 * @User:Kurgbe: Thank you for joining the discussion, but I am well aware of the standard blurb, thank you very much. What you are ignoring is that the article conforms to the standards: we are not using Neago as a third-party source. You are also ignoring the fact that many reliable sources have been added today, so whatever validity your concerns may have had, the article is far better cited now. I have fixed all the issues you flagged; if there are any remaining issues with specific statements in the article, say exactly what they are here, rather than slapping a blanket warning tag where it is not needed. And remember to sign your reply. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @Chiswick Chap For example the statement "Neago has written 11 reference works on the protection of oranutans.[12]" comes from a http://www.capgeris.com/ which is a website spécialisé dans les résidences pour les vieux (old people residences) which CANNOT be considered as a reliable source! We need the list of books with proven references. Kurgbe

(talk) 21:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * They repeated a claim made many times. I have checked on Google scholar, and can't find any such papers, so I'm removing the claim. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:05, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Tag reinserted without agreement
@User:Kurgbe: Excuse me! All the doubtful claims have been removed; there is no cause for the tag to remain indefinitely, given that any reason there may have been for its presence is now gone. Why has it been reinserted? It is quite inappropriate to the current article, whatever people may have thought about how it was formerly. Also, people may have been referring to French Wikipedia, not this article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

unfinished sentence; "Uturat Publishing"; Esther Kerr

 * 1) In the "Causette" section, there is an unfinished sentence: "In March 2016,".
 * Removed, thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:23, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


 * 1) The "Uturat Publishing" (archived website, no longer available online) never published any other book than the one of Francine Neago and Ester Kerr. The uturatpublishing.com domain (see Whois.com) was registered by 2 persons, David Larson and Esther Kerr.
 * Added note to that effect. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:23, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


 * 1) Esther Kerr is Neago's coauthor. She describes herself on her LinkedIn page as "Bachelor of Arts, History, Geography, Community Studies, Media, Physics (1983 – 1986)" from the Central Queensand (sic) University, Australia, she is an "Ex-President of the University Alumni". Actually, before 1992 there was no "Central Queensland University" but a the University College of Central Queensland which did not qualify for the university status. Also on her LinkedIn page she tells that "Initially created for publishing books, the company ["Uturat Publishing"] is interested in diversifying its activities into other areas of publishing, and online marketing". She links towards uturatpublishing.com as her "personal website". Apart from the book coauthored with Neago, she gives 2 titles of published books, "Romance, Love & Joy", self-published 2004 and "Welcome to My Country: Nigeria" (Juvenile Version} published by Times Publishing, 2002. Contrarily to the usual LinkedIn profile, she doesn't mention any professional activity, past nor present. Her profile is only available when one is NOT connected to LinkedIn, I just tried while being connected, it doesn't appear any longer. --Minorities observer (talk) 13:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Stated "coauthor" in the same note. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:23, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Mystified
I confess I am somewhat mystified both by another editor's resurrecting their old arguments, none of which I think apply any longer. I am also bemused by the fact that they reverted my edit to the lead, which did nothing more than summarize the body of the article which is now reliably cited. We do not in general cite the lead when it does this, for the sufficient reason that the citations in the body demonstrate that the lead is verifiable. The edits indeed restored a claim that the editor's tag actually disagrees, namely that she was a professional conservationist - one that I don't think is true, did not claim in the revised lead, and don't wish to maintain either. Since, therefore, we violently AGREE that the text is wrong, it seems necessary to replace it at once.

So, why should we not summarize the lead here? - No reason at all, I suggest. Let's put the improved lead back. I'll even cite it, per exceptionem. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Agreeing changes
@user:Kurgbe: It is not acceptable to edit-war non-agreed changes into a fully-cited text, nor to insert uncited materials into a WP:BLP article.

Your claim, in the lead (!), that "Ester Kerr wrote a child book based on Francine Neago manuscripts on her adventureous (sic) life with animals.  " is not acceptable. Firstly, Neago's name appears on the cover of the book as the first author, as actually shown (and, we realize, necessarily shown) in the article. Secondly, Facebook is not an acceptable source for any claim beyond what is already stated, that there is a debate going on there; we can't rely on anything that is said on that site as anybody can edit it, and is doing so. Thirdly, the book "A young orangutan in a loving home" cannot be described as "her adventureous life with animals", even if that had been spelt correctly.

I propose therefore (rather than just reverting the changes as wrong and inadequately cited, which would be justified in these circumstances) the text "and co-author of a book on bringing up a young orangutan". Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:01, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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External links modified
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