Talk:Francis Boyle

Copyvio revert
Reverted article body replacement where text was taken from -- Whpq 23:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This copyvio was added back in ; I'm going to work to remove it again. If you're editing this page, please refrain from copying entire faculty profiles from university websites. Thanks! GJ (talk) 04:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I have added sources to the "Wedgie the Kangaroo", including a list-serv email sent by Prof. Boyle himself. I am adding them here, in case they are deleted again:

http://westerby.blogspot.com/2002_04_01_archive.html#11354948 http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0203&L=twatch-l&D=1&F=P&P=36816


 * I also note that someone, in the past, blanked out the talk page. Apparently, there was nothing on the page but a couple of personal insults toward Boyle, but it is worth keeping an eye on. Jkp1187 (talk) 13:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

cut section
"staff had been infiltrated by US and UK security services (see Covert Action interview below) a claim hotly disputed by many in the human-rights community. " This sentence appeared in reference to Boyle's interview with Dennis Bernstein. Although there is a SUGGESTION that there may indeed by intelligence operatives manipulating AI, Boyle doesnt dwell on this suggestion, provide names, etc. He merely provides evidence on the different process undertaken by AI when dealing with (1) the "babies out of incubators" hoax (where AI played a leading role) and (2) its sabotage actions when referring to the massacre at Jenin. The sentence was cut because it is an issue of accuracy. Read the interview! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antidotto (talk • contribs) 15:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * i haven't traced the edit history here, but i agree that "staff had been infiltrated by US and UK security services" is somewhat stronger than what's in the interview. Boyle says that he strongly suspects that one person at the International Secretariat was a UK secret service agent, and that "when I am dealing with people who want to work with Amnesty in London, I just tell them, "Look, just understand, they're penetrated by intelligence agents, U.K., maybe U.S., I don't know, but you certainly can't trust them." The latter describes what he tells people informally, including the caveat "I don't know"; it's not necessarily an extrapolation he declares as a fact.


 * On the other hand, it does seem to be more than just a suggestion. Not providing the suspect's name does not mean he doesn't take his hypothesis seriously - there are plenty of other reasons for not stating the name (e.g. not being willing to go through a court process; protecting the person in case his hypothesis is wrong). He also mentions someone else coming to the same conclusion about the same suspected person.


 * Anyway, whatever on this issue is cited, it should be cited accurately. On that there should certainly be agreement. Boud (talk) 13:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

NATO bombing and Kosovo
There is not a single reference which can prove this. Professor Boyle did not even comment those themes...--Thom977 (talk) 02:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Prove what exactly? Hooooooof (talk) 18:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Where was the professor born?
n/t. --Belchman (talk) 05:24, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Direct Quote
Hyperionsteel and No More Mr Nice Guy,

You have both either deleted or heavily edited the following excerpt, stating that youtube is not a reliable source.

"Furthermore, in a recent interview, Boyle stated: “I spoke with the head military lawyer for IDF, Joel Zinger. You know, I spent two weeks here. It’s clear you people are inflicting Nuremberg crimes on the Palestinians, exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews. What’s your explanation? He said, ‘Military necessity.’ Notice that he didn’t disagree with me! I said that argument was rejected at Nuremberg when the lawyers of the Nazis made them. He said, ‘Well, we have public relations people in the United States, and they handle these matters for us.’" [16]"

Hyperionsteel, after audaciously questioning my intelligence, you requested that a more reliable source would be a transcript of the interview. Apparently you did not even go to the source before questioning its integrity, because if you had, you would find no reason to question whether or not Boyle made this statement. Furthermore, you went ahead and summarized the quote, supposedly "to make it less POV". You summarized it as such:

"In an interview posted on Youtube, Boyle recounted a conversation with Joel Zinger, the head military lawyer for IDF. Boyle claimed that he had told Zinger that Israel was inflicting crimes against the Palestinians similar to those committed against the Jews by the Nazis during World War II, to which Zinger reportedly replied that the actions of the Israeli military are "military necessity." Boyle argued that this argument was rejected at Nuremberg when the lawyers of the Nazis made them, to which Zinger reportedly replied "Well, we have public relations people in the United States, and they handle these matters for us." "

claimed and reportedly do not make it less POV, neither does "In an article posted on YouTube".

Regardless, the reliable source example page states, " In some cases, video clips published on YouTube may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed." Furthermore, the no original research page instructs, "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source."

The quote comes from a 'video clip published on YouTube.' It is a primary source. Primary sources may be used on Wikipedia to make 'straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.' The above paragraph does exactly that, without any interpretation. Anybody can click on the source. And once they click on the link, assuming that they have functional eyes and ears, they can verify that these were Boyle's exact words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VivaWikipedia (talk • contribs) 01:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I will have to audaciously question your intelligence again; the words "claimed" and "reportedly" are certainly more POV in this case, as does citing this quote as being sourced as a youtube video, which is the one (and only) source. In addition, this is not simply a "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts" or even an opinion by Boyle. Rather, Boyle is making very serious allegations against Zinger. I suggest you read Wikipedia's policy on BLP (Biographies of Living Persons), which requires accusations like this to be reliabily sourced if they are to be included in Wikipedia (for both accuracy and liability purposes, among others). In this case, the only source is a youtube video in which Boyle recollects a conversation he had with Zinger. If this was published in a mainstream source, it would be a different story. Wikipedia is not a place to post allegations such as this that cannot be reliably sourced. In fact, this entire quote should probably be deleted unless a reliable source can be found.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 04:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC))


 * To clarify, this is not simply a "direct quote" by Boyle. Rather, Boyle is quoting somebody else (in this case Zinger). Therefore, the reliable source requirements for BLP apply. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 04:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC))
 * In addition to the above, you can't use the equivalent of a blog to make statements about 3rd parties. See WP:SPS.No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, if you can find a video on Youtube of Zinger making these alleged statements, feel free to reinsert it.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC))

Article Quality
The format (or outline) of this article is scattershot at best. The article is wildly incomplete and out of date. It is difficult to pick apart Boyle's anti-semitism from his peacemaking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.80.113 (talk) 20:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

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Article issues
Seems like a quote farm on this person, and the sources are dicey. Coretheapple (talk) 13:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

BLP violoation
this conspiracy theory stuff looks at first glance to be a violation of BLP. Note that we use only one source, which is an opinion piece (see the bottom of the article, it says: "The views and opinions expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Forward".) Onceinawhile (talk) 13:48, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and remove it, but also note possible sources - although not for BDS.. Doug Weller  talk 15:40, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * No objection from me to include an attributed statement of Jerold Auerbach's views. But what was there before called him a "conspiracy theorist" in Wikipedia's voice, which has a much higher burden of proof. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

question
If Dr. Francis Boyle is a doctor and professor isn't he a source, and not a source of controversy? --Massintel (talk) 05:07, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * New stuff goes to the bottom. Your question seems to be a demand to regard people with academic grades as uniformly reliable. That approach does not work since being human and therefore fallible cannot be cured by acquiring a degree. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Covid-19 conspiracy theory
His theory is (among others) backed by a new study at Hamburg University: https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/Hamburger-Forscher-Coronavirus-stammt-wohl-aus-Labor,corona6764.html - Maybe someone wants to add this? (I'm not a native English speaker.) --- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.104.185.16 (talk) 15:37, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

"Frances Boyle" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Frances Boyle. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 28 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Bearcat (talk) 21:52, 28 April 2021 (UTC)