Talk:Francisco Macías Nguema

Comment
With all due respect since there are clearly more important matters involved in this article forum. I am not a purported member of the deceased's family. I would like some clarification re: the twice mentioned cannabis usage in relation to 'psychopathic' behavior. This information re: possible cannabis psychosis is provided in a matter of fact fashion in the same context and sentence as a mention of 'iboga', which is known to produce hallucinations and occasionally fatality.

The text states: 'Some observers have posited that Macías Nguema may have been a psychopath, a disorder potentially enabled, in part, by reported childhood psychological trauma, and that his behaviour could have been affected by other possible mental illnesses, as well as his reported periodic use of the psychoactive plant Iboga and large quantities of cannabis.[18][19]

Sorry. This is simply inane. British people should know better. This sort of prattle was already discredited in 1894 by the UK Parliament. It's a shame that modern people still perpetuate it. Wikipedia doesn't need to carry on this 'tradition' of colonial mentality.

Indian Hemp Drugs Commission Report

Hello my name is Marybel ntugu macias and I am the first grandchild that Mr. Macias had. I'm tired of reading such as ridiculous thins abut my grandfather. The only reason why the media keeps writing stupid thins about my family is because the Macias family we haven't step up forward to talk and defend our name. Everybody in the country knows that the only reason why we haven't done it is because the actual president desn't let us do it. I'm sk and tired of this. Everybody also knows that Mr. Obiang doesn't belong to our family. All the citizn in the country knows that they are missing my grandfather big time. the actual president haven't done anything for the country at all. Everything that is done i the country are things that my "grandpa"builded the only thing that he did was change the names. The media only writes what the President want's them to write, but they haven't heard the other side of the story.One day,all this wll finish and we will have the freedom of speech,... one day...


 * I can't make significant stuff about...but, do you wanna be my friend =)? --201.8.203.157 20:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You say you're his grandchild and that Teodoro Obiang is not related. According to your IP details you're in the united states. Surely if some huge correction of history is to be made then you're in the right place to do it, yet you wrote as if you were living in fear of your life in Equatorial Guinea. That does not compute! Banastre rapes your dog!


 * There are many sides of the story! At least 3! But who will be believed? The one's with the most wealth and influence. The truth will break your heart either way. If you have a heart. Relir 16:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop defending dictators! There is way too much evidence against your Grandpa (who has been likened to Idi Amin), he is as ruthless as they come, a genocidal maniac. See: The Wonga Coup: Guns, Thugs and a Ruthless Determination to Create Mayhem in an Oil-Rich Corner of Africa by Adam Roberts; Small Is Not Always Beautiful by Liniger-Goumaz Max; Tropical Gangsters: One Man's Experience With Development and Decadence in Deepest Africa by Robert Klitgaard [highly recommended]; and Equatorial Guinea: Colonialism, State Terror, and the Search for Stability (Westview Profiles. Nations of Contemporary Africa) by I. K. Sundiata. Ken Silverstein wrote an article in the Nation in 2002 and Mother Jones did a brilliant piece in 2005. Read the Amnesty International reports, Human Rights Watch, the US State Dept., Freedom House, or the Bioko Island Diversity Project--OR,just do a basic free search on the New York Times website. The sections on Equatorial Guinea will be updated with articles, bibliographies, biographies, etc... The reference "Auschwitz in Africa" is unverifiable, however, Adam Roberts in Wonga Coup mentions a diplomat calling Equatorial Guinea the "Dachau of Africa".

Election
According to a 2005 documentary I just saw in TVE, some Guinean professor at University of Mississippi (from memory) told that Macías's campaign in 1968 was very rushed. His platform was confiscation of (European?) wealth. However he lost in his natal (village?) and in Mongomo because they knew him. --Error 19:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop defending dictators! There is way too much evidence against your Grandpa (who has been likened to Idi Amin), he is as ruthless as they come, a genocidal maniac. See: The Wonga Coup: Guns, Thugs and a Ruthless Determination to Create Mayhem in an Oil-Rich Corner of Africa by Adam Roberts; Small Is Not Always Beautiful by Liniger-Goumaz Max; Tropical Gangsters: One Man's Experience With Development and Decadence in Deepest Africa by Robert Klitgaard [highly recommended]; and Equatorial Guinea: Colonialism, State Terror, and the Search for Stability (Westview Profiles. Nations of Contemporary Africa) by I. K. Sundiata. Ken Silverstein wrote an article in the Nation in 2002 and Mother Jones did a brilliant piece in 2005. Read the Amnesty International reports, Human Rights Watch, the US State Dept., Freedom House, or the Bioko Island Diversity Project--OR,just do a basic free search on the New York Times website. The sections on Equatorial Guinea will be updated with articles, bibliographies, biographies, etc... The reference "Auschwitz in Africa" is unverifiable, however, Adam Roberts in Wonga Coup mentions a diplomat calling Equatorial Guinea the "Dachau of Africa". --Unknown


 * You do mean WAS don't you? Francisco Macías Nguema is dead, he died almost 30 years ago. His nephew, the almighty Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo is the one currently in rule. I agree, the former ruler was a genocidal dictator and for all these years, almost 40, the western world never once covered the carnaige in their media outlets. It's only NOW when the oil has been discovered (the potential for wealth and commericalism) that people notice, but you are way too late. I say, save the argument. Understandibly, however, during the beginning of the genocide occuring in EQ (1968), the time period where genocide was at it's height in the western world was nearing it's final phase (imperialism > slavery> opression> GENOCIDE). Although genocide continues to wipe out thousands globally today, for the most part, we aren't paying attention. --Unknown


 * Conversely, many of the authors who wrote about the country during and right after the height of this demise - why did they not draw attention to this? And if they did, why did no one pay attention? Why? --Unknown


 * Many of the authors who did write about this were from within the intellectual community that existed in the country before the political uprising. Once the new regime started gaining control, these writings were confiscated and burned. Many of the authors were killed or went into exile. --Relir 11:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want a real answer, it was impossible to write about the country. To visit the country was to risk death. And those who wrote about the country were inevitably denounced as racists and colonialists who attacked a proud new "african" nation and its "african" culture. Authors, reporters and newspapers were also threatened with libel lawsuits in the courts of the UK. Given the riches of Nguema and the fact that the country was cut off to outside visitors, the calculation on the part of most was that he would have won any libel action. --Unknown


 * The only solution to the problems in the country would have been to overthrow the government. But had a western country done that, it would have been denounced across africa and beyond. And it was also thought that overthrowing one bad leader in the country would just result in another emerging. The country is throught to be incapable of governing itself by outsiders. --Unknown


 * That's not the best solution because the native people will still not rule their own country, the Europeans, Asians and Americans will take over. The poor will still suffer and they will be more prone to being exploited. Poor blacks always get the short end of the stick. --Relir 11:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There have been three plots since 1968 to overthrow the government. Two plots by mercenaries have failed. The third one, planned by Nigeria, did not happen because of internal political changes inside Nigeria that made it less of a priority. --Unknown


 * All things considered, the best outcome would probably be for the country to be removed from the map of Africa. Any of its neighbors could do a better job running it than the gangsters who control it right now do. --Unknown


 * Yes, Francisco Macías Nguema was a terrible man; however, more have perished due to racism, religious, cultural and ethnic clensing at the hands of European colonialist, imperialist and elistist over the past 400 years. It doesn't take dictatorship in order for genocide to occur. Don't forget what occured in this country for 400 years, don't forget about the many 'OTHER' instances of intra-ethnic, intra-national, and intra-racial genocide that has occured throughout history (Auschwitz (Jews)was neither the only occurance of widespread genocide nor was it the one will the largest death toll). --Unknown


 * Nguema turned the entire country into a prison camp and ruined everything he could get his hands on. He could have killed more, but he was thankfully limited by the size and population of the country from doing greater harm. He went beyond most historical criminals in that he made war on education and medicine. But men like him will continue to be the norm in Africa until the foolish stop raging about the last 400 years of history and concentrate on saving Africa from itself. --Unknown


 * We only pay attention to modern day genocides after movie scripts have been written about them or it gets major publicity; way after the fact; and way after hundreds of cultures, societies, languages, humans have perished. As you read this, hundreds are being murdered somewhere in the world solely based on their ethnicity, religion, political loyalties, culture and/or race. We can point fingers and him, at the both of them; however, there plenty of people to point fingers at concerning genocide and human rights violations. Consider that. --Unknown


 * So what should "we" do about it? Africa today is as colonialist as it was during before independence. Any services delivered to people come from NGOs. Economic activity takes place in walled-off compounds run by western companies. What do the governments of Africa provide to the people of Africa? Except for a handful of countries, they provide nothing. Most of the people of Africa would be better off without them.--Unknown


 * At this point, all that can be done is to allow evolution to continue taking it's course. Ofcourse, help where and how one can. Despite my personal connection with EG, I focus my attention on the entire continent. Thousands are dead, ethnic bloodlines diluted, languages and people driven to extinction, cultures extinct and villages gone. For me personally, nothing can repair what has been done, but let's try to preserve the remainder of Africa: the suffering, opressed, uneducated and especially the unwesternized. We can help redevelop Africa, it will never be what it once was, but we can contribute to make it a continent with thriving societies, it has great potential. And fight so that the untouched and virtually untouched remain just that; their envirnments need to be preserved as well. We have to help so that 100 years from now decendents of African Aboriginals can take pride in having a say in the new societies built on the lands of their ancestors. We have to fight so that 100 years from now most of the land owners, business owners, home owners will be descendents of those who originally roam the land. So that the continent won't consist of majority white governments, the native 'majority' remains just that. We have fight so that the majority will have a say, no matter how much money they have. We have to fight so that wealth is equally distributed across the economic systems. We have to fight so that the drug trade and the same devices used against our people in other parts of the world will be kept out of Africa. We have to fight for morality, human rights, so that homelessness, crime, and discorder won't run rampant among the people who will live there. We all know how history can repeat itself. I know of many who are natives that were ousted and want to go back home; it won't be the same, but at least they can be happy just be being there - being laid to rest there (HOME). They can finally make peace, for all that has happened in their lives and to their families, friends, villages, and cultures.--Unknown


 * I think we owe it to all those who fell victim to the corrupt governments of Africa a fight to uncover the REAL historical events/occurrences. Thousands have been silent for decades about many events, so we don't know the TRUTH. And what is known by a few, isn't known by the masses. The truth about the past is being distorted by material favor. In the case of EG, many vital texts, literature, were destroyed. Family pictures, documented history burned; important keys to knowing the historical truths about other regions and people. I hate it that the only text available depicting the history of my people was written by a non-native European missionary. We need to preserve what is there and continue to fight that the world, especially scholarly institutions of the world, know the truth. Otherwise, misinformation/lies, will continue to be perpetuated. --Unknown


 * There is a generation now both born in Africa and abroad (those with recent lineages/connections), who know nothing about the events of the recent past. They are not aware. Some parents haven't even bothered to pass things on to their offspring, that's how hopeless things have been. If the TRUTH is fought for, at least to commemorate the dead, our ancestors. --Unknown


 * Western Civilization has had a manipulative influence on the African experience/it's history. It's hard to criticize the current campaigns like (RED) as it's providing aid where it's needed and where many have not done so, including me. However, for the last 40 years, for the most part, people have not been paying attention. The issues that lead to these catastrophes started 40 years ago, with no intervention.


 * Unfortunately, Franciso Macias Nguema, with his western education, suit wearing, lover of money (effin' kleptomaniac) - self was a hypocrite. He certainly died in vain. He fought against, what he was all about. Medical counsel and education was sought in other countries by the families of the two recent leaders. He destroyed the very same type institutions in EG that put him in leadership. All those people just died for nothing. The same goes for the current leader...if this was all about preserving the African culture, race, ideology - their lives wouldn't exude WESTERNIZATION. But the media is not going to play it that way. The US Government jumped at the change to make allegiance with this new oil industry powerhouse, because in this day in age, using logic as one's weapon, one can acquire money by the most corrupt and inhumane means and still be respected and glorified - still make more money and gather a plethora of business partners. Put the two Nguemas individually side-by-side with Sadaam Hussein, they outnumber Hussein's crimes against humanity. Yet the US shakes hands with the EG government. --Unknown


 * Pointing fingers to justify the potential swindling of the country's wealth doesn't show sympathy, concern or regard for any one of those demised - a pathetic scapegoat. At this point, the succeeding government of EQ has just as much right in their presence there as the US does in Iraq; as much right as descendent's of Europeans have in the U.S. Relir 23:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If the right thing to do is to stop pointing fingers or showing sympathy or concern, maybe the best thing for the west to do is to simply stop treating most African states as governments. --Unknown


 * Well, the government of those countries need to do something about the natives that they put out and slaughtered. Their families deserve reparations. Those still in exile shouldn't be hiding. Those that had to flee as refugees, funding should be provided from all the wealth gained via natural resource exploitation so that these people and their descendants can have a good life and education living in these European countries that don't want them there. They deserve something, for the 50 or so years during which these people and their families had to suffer because of this. And what about all the people turned into slaves as a result of all the post-colonial warfare, because their families and support systems were slaughtered off? Americans want reparations for the European slave trade of Africans, but post-colonial Africa needs to pay reparations to all the surviving natives and their descendants who were affected by all of the mess and greed for power.  All the Black on Black murder!!!! They don't even pay attention to the poor with in the country. Most of the people of EG live in gutter conditions while the president's son sashays his ass around the world spending like money is about to go out of style.  When that is done, perhaps the US won't threaten African countries so much. Until that happens, they deserve the threats. --Unknown

It appears that someone is using this as a forum to vent his (justified) anger about this guy, but wikipedia isn't supposed to be that. I think what some of you have missed is the time frame; during this period most people in America were pre-occupied with Vietnam and south east Asia.--Dudeman5685 (talk) 03:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible sources
I've started looking for suitable sources for the article. So far, I have found the following.


 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/08/29/do2902.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/08/29/ixopinion.html
 * http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947351,00.html?promoid=googlep
 * http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,839898,00.html
 * http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-0206(198804)31%3A1%3C9%3ATROADT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T "During the eleven year presidency (1968-1979) of Francisco Macias Nguema, up to half of the population was liquidated or went into exile."
 * http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/polity/Eqg1.htm
 * http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/africa/equatorial_guinea.html
 * http://www.kentlaw.edu/jicl/articles/spring2003/Colonial%20Rapacity.doc
 * http://globaledge.msu.edu/IBRD/CountryHistoryPrint.asp?CountryID=189&RegionID=5
 * http://www.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v8/v8i3a2.htm
 * http://www.africa.ufl.edu/asq/v8/v8i3a2.pdf
 * http://www.bartleby.com/65/ng/Nguema-F.html

If anyone can suggest others (web or, preferably, print), I'd be grateful. Jakew 22:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "Small is Not Always Beautiful" by Max Liniger-Goumaz is the first (and AFAIK only) detailed history of Equatorial Guinea in English (originally written in French and translated into English in 1988). "Tropical Gangsters: One Man's Experience With Development and Decadence in Deepest Africa" by Robert Klitgaard is another book on the country, detailing the author's experiences working with the government to implement World Bank policies. "The Wonga Coup: Guns, Thugs and a Ruthless Determination to Create Mayhem in an Oil-Rich Corner of Africa" by Adam Roberts is a more recent book that talks about a recent coup attempt. Rjhatl (talk) 13:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Source for religion?
He's listed as having no religion and being an atheist in the infobox, seems odd someone raised by traditional witch doctors in an animist tradition who later went on to refer to himself as god could be called an atheist. Unless the intention is to imply he thought he himself did not exist. Citation is needed for his religion. --NEMT (talk) 21:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Something tells me that he was not an atheist; he simply thought that he was god. There is a difference between thinking you are divine and being an atheist. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 10:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm saying. --NEMT (talk) 15:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have removed it. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 06:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

A better picture for his profile
I found a picture of Francisco Nguema that I think would be more suitable for this page. It's basically a cult of personality photo of him used by his regime. The reason why I think it should be used is that I've noticed that the profile photos of Mao Zedoung, Kim Il Song, and Jim Jong Il use the personality cult photos which I think makes the Wikipedia articles more interesting. On the other hand, Stalins Wikipedia photo is a regular photo. That being said, I was hoping to ask if it is ok to use the new photo of Francisco. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=francisco+nguema&view=detailv2&&id=A4DB6F73928F0FEF17A42381E2CEE40C1D01D5F0&selectedIndex=4&ccid=gcGafvX1&simid=608048137792128448&thid=OIP.M81c19a7ef5f5d90b5554d15b3caf1357o1&ajaxhist=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger (talk • contribs) 02:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

No objections. Alright. I'm changing the photo.Graylandertagger (talk) 20:10, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia really behind this information?
The information was added to the entry by User:Zwifree seems to be a wild slanders without any factual basis. Especially accusing him of drugs using. Do not you require, your writers, to base their statements on reliable sources? Slav4 (talk) 19:57, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

The Information is properly cited in the body of the article
In response to Slav4, I didn't add any new information to the article. The introduction to this article was very thin, so I expanded it using information from the rest of the article that had already been properly cited. In response to the drug use, the notion that Nguema used several types of drugs while he was President is cited correctly (and laid out in more detail) in the body of the article. Thanks for your concerns! Zwifree (talk) 6:57, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Slav4 (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

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Potential Bias
I'm seriously doubting that this biography is written from a neutral point of view. Some of the claims in this article seem quite outlandish, especially the bold claim that he turned EG into the "Dachau of Africa."

I have consulted Equatorial Guinea's Encyclopedia Britannica page, as well as it's CIA World Factbook page, and although they claim that Nguema's was indeed totalitarian, they do not do so to the extent of this article.

a 1979 Washington Post article reporting on Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo's takeover of the country additionally claims that Nguema's regime drove half the country into exile, although it does not speak to such a level as to declare it a "Dachau of Africa."

--Jimmy Jimsson (talk) 03:55, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I've done some more research and uncovered a 1978 joint house resolution proposal which condemns Nguema for genocide. --Jimmy Jimsson (talk) 04:16, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Kenyon's book (which is cited) is quite clear that Macías' forces committed many massacres and mass-murders; and this book was very well received. Are you seriously suggesting that a dictator who drove half of his country into exile, who shot people for wearing glasses, who mined the only roads into the country, and is documented to have ordered the slaughter of entire settlements, was not so bad? The sources say he turned his country into the "Dachau of Africa", and Wikipedia follows the sources. Applodion (talk) 12:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for bringing up your concerns with me about this dispute. My main concerns arose from what (in my view) was a perceived lack of primary sources. I am going to add a citation for the joint house resolution in this article. --Jimmy Jimsson (talk) 17:01, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia actually discourages the use of primary sources, see Primary sources, though I believe the joint house resolution would be ok to use. In general, feel free to expand the article if you find good references (i.e. academic books, journals, and newspapers). Even though I diagreed with your criticsm/concerns, it is a fact that the article needs a lot more work and is still in a relatively poor shape. Applodion (talk) 17:16, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Unverified claim in article
The claim that Nguema's father was killed by a government official and that his mother committed suicide are not listed in the Spanish version of the article. I do not speak Spanish, but I ran the content through a translator to see roughly what it says. According to the Spanish version of the article Nguema's psychological issues were a result of witnessing his father kill his brother in a ritual sacrifice. The claim that his father killed one of his sons does appear to be something that is widely believed; there are a number of citable sources saying that it happened in Spanish and English. However the claim about his mother and father meeting untimely deaths only appear in sources that seem to be quoting this article. The citation given for it does not include that information. I would suggest removing this passage unless a source can be found. HollinwoodVampire (talk) 09:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I dunno if you got around to it at all but did you check out the "El sexo y la violencia: el caso de Masié Nguema Biyogo" paper listed? NorthTension (talk) 13:54, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Santer Clause
So @CitizenKang414 the issue with the Santa suit hoax isnt that it its just misreported via knuckleheads unquestioning Wikipedia, it was because a guy vandalized the page over a decade ago; if it was actually reported on by legitimate sources I could think of adding it as is but thats wherein my consternation lies, maybe rewording it or adding a note saying that it is without a doubt 110% a HOAX would be best. NorthTension (talk) 11:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)