Talk:Frank Bainimarama

Untitled
Could his behaviour be characterized as "erratic"? That is how Australian media is trying to portray him.


 * Not quite. I am not Fijian and have never met the guy, but as an outsider looking in, I see his program of destabilizing the government as far too methodical to be called erratic.  He has pursued a determined course for 2-3 years to weaken the standing of the SDL Party among indigenous Fijians (he failed: 81 percent of them voted SDL last May).  That hasn't deterred him.  The only reason why he hasn't mounted a coup is NOT incompetence, but fear of foreign intervention and a national uprising.  (Rabuka's coups in 1987 had considerable support in the indigenous community; a coup by Bainimarama would not, and effective government without the support, or at least the tolerance, of Fiji's powerful chiefs would be problematic. Otherwise, he wouldn't have waited until now to ditch the government. David Cannon 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure - he seems erratic to me. Then again, media never shares all, and always has a spin. Can we get the word 'Bananarama' somewhere on his page? P g chris 06:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of "Ratu" in inline text
I'm pretty sure that "Ratu" should not be used throughout the text in all of the places that it is currently. Please see WP:MOSBIO, which says, Styles and honorifics which are derived from noble title... should not be included in the text inline but may be legitimately discussed in the article proper. I believe this applies to "Ratu" as well; the Ratu article does not say that it is part of a name and all journalistic sources I have seen for Bainimarama omit the title (even Fiji Times online). Mike Dillon 15:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I spoke too soon. Fiji Times does use "Ratu", just not for Frank Bainimarama (neither did this article). I'm still not sure it belongs in Wikipedia, since I don't see the difference between this title and the ones cited at WP:MOSBIO, but I've left them in the article for the time being. Mike Dillon 16:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait a sec. One Fijian Wikipedian explained to me that Bainimarama is a borderline case: his family is "minor nobility" so his Ratu title is somewhat borderline.  His brother uses it; he himself opts to put his military title above his chiefly one.  Referring to the President, however, there is nothing borderline about his title.  He's the Paramount Chief of Vuda, based in Viseisei, Fiji's oldest settlement, and as such is near the apex of the chiefly hierarchy.  The Ratu title, unlike most European titles, is used as part of the name, not as something separate, so its use is  appropriate. Therefore, it should be included.  By the same token, European titles are generally included as well - compare Richard von Weizsäcker - his Freiherr title is included in his name, in the first sentence. David Cannon 11:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The lead sentence is an exception; you'll find many titles and honors listed on the first mention of the name in an article and I believe the MoS covers this. The question is whether subsequent inline references to the article subject and to other people should use the title. If the Fijian title is really different, it should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) and the "Honorific prefixes" section should be updated (or maybe some other section). If the MoS change is acceptable, it would be along the lines of the "Cardinal" inserted into a cardinal's name. The "Cardinal" case is currently unmentioned in the guidelines as well despite being followed throughout Wikipedia, so these could both very well be legitimate exceptions. Let me know if you'd like me to start the discussion on that page. Mike Dillon 14:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Frank does not 'opt' to use his military title instead of 'Ratu'. He is not a Ratu. His father was and his two elder brothers are. All his sisters have the female title, 'Adi' Being the third son, he is not entitled to it and neither are his descendents. It is the ancient Fijian way of preventing the 'too many chiefs, and not enough Indians' syndrome. In their household he has no say, and in family meetings he is given the menial tasks. He waited for his father to die before he could have his coup. Had he done it when his father was still alive, he would have got a good telling off, a clip around the ear, and sent to bed with no dinner! He has a minority complex, hence the coup to try to make a name for himself (Comment added by anonymous user 61.88.183.103).


 * Thanks for that clarification. Against that, I have occasionally heard of him being addressed as Ratu.  Were the people doing so misinformed, or were they flattering him with a kind of courtesy title? David Cannon 21:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Difference between Firefox and IE???
I know this sounds like a problem with browser cache or something, but when I look at this page in Internet Explorer (v6.0.2) it displays differently from how it does in Firefox.

The whole section within 'Political controversies' from 'The Main reason of the conflict ...' to 'See main articles: Military unrest since the Fiji coup of 2000; Military unrest in Fiji, December 2005 - January 2006; 2006 Fijian coup d'état plot;' is missing when I browse this page in IE. I opened the page in both browsers within a minute of each other, and have cleared my cache in both browsers. Does anyone else see this problem, or is it just local to me?

Also, in the Firefox browser, the quote from the New Zealand Herald 'Two bills are at the centre of the dispute...' does not wrap inside the box, but is just one long line going off to the right (which is why I wanted to see how it was in IE in the first place, and how I noticed the other difference.

Anyone else see these problems? (am using monobook as my skin in both browsers) --Bwmodular 09:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, just forget about it! Don't know what was going on there, but once I logged in in my IE session all was OK, and I can't reproduce the problem. Probably something stupid on my part. Sorry.--Bwmodular 09:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Genocide Potential
Rather than discuss this on several different pages, please see Talk:2006_Fijian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat.- gadfium 23:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Link
I clicked on the Fijian military website link just now. "This page cannot be found". Hmm. Totnesmartin 10:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The link to the commander's page has been down for months and months -- Elena the Quiet 06:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Bainimarama.jpg
If Bainimarama is a Commodore, why does he wear the tailcoat shoulder-boards of a mere Captain - and on a SHIRT - and an admiral's hat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.132.19 (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Uniforms in the Fijian military do not necessarily correspond to uniforms in other jurisdictions. Moreover, he was an admiral for a while - before the government decided to downsize the military, which effectively lowered his rank.  I believe that was one of his grievances against the government, though he never said so. David Cannon 20:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And the shirt is possibly because it's HOT in Fiji! Or maybe it was casual Friday. P g chris 06:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

He is wearing the insignia of a Real Admiral (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_officer_rank_insignia). As David has stated, he was promoted to Real Admiral - but this was later revoked. Note that Fiji has retained Royal insigna (e.g. military insignia, flags, colours etc.) - even though Fiji is now a republic.


 * You're not getting it. Bainimarama.jpg shows him wearing boards with a crown, anchor and star, and in the British system of rank insignia - which Fiji uses - this represents the rank of Captain. I don't think he was ever a rear admiral, and he wasn't one when that picture was taken (i.e., so what's with the hat?). Anyway, I found that a site linked on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_officer_rank_insignia covers this: http://www.geocities.com/commentariat/defence_off_rank.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.138.227 (talk) 05:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Interesting! You're right - he is wearing the rank of a captain - crown, anchor & star - but the hat is that of a flag officer (as it has two sets of gold oak leaves). What's up what that ?!


 * To Hagerman: I don't know what's up with the uniform, but he certainly was a rear admiral. There used to be an article about him on the Military website (it's now offline), which explained all that - he was briefly made a rear admiral, but this was reverted.  He's never said so, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the factors that fuelled his resentment against the Qarase government. David Cannon 10:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Moving user's question from article page to talk page
On 20 December 2007, user Bigredtoe edited the article and inserted what follows, regarding Bainimarama having apparently forced Mara to resign in May 2000. I've removed the question from article page, and I'm putting it here instead. Aridd (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * (what evidence is there to support this claim? i have never found any evidence that Mara ever said anything to support this claim, in fact Mara's daughter Adi Koila Nailatikau, who was one of the MPs being held hostage by the mutiners, has subsequently declared that Ratu Mara was NOT forced to resign)


 * The daughter who denied that he was forced to resign was not Adi Koila but her sister, Adi Ateca. In either event, both Adi Koila and Adi Ateca are married to former Army commanders who were/are both close to Bainimarama (and were subsequently appointed to Bainimarama's government), so it COULD be that their husbands put a good spin on it for them.  Or they may have tactical reasons for going along with Bainimarama now - who knows?  Anyway, Mara DID say, or at least imply, that Bainimarama and other military officers put heavy pressure on him to resign - in his last recorded interview before his death. David Cannon (talk) 02:12, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

What are his policies ?
I can't get any sense of what he believes in and why he is doing what he does... we need some analysis in the article, not just a list of dates and actions. Is he trying to prevent the Fijianisation-by- force attempted by Speight and others ? If so, why ? He isn't an Indian, so what motivates him ? Rcbutcher (talk) 11:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A sense of human decency? Why would you necessarily have to be Indian to defend Indian rights? There have always been indigenous Fijians who opposed discrimination against Indians. What he believes in has always been quite clear: an end to race-based and racist politics; a society in which a shared sense of nation transcends a narrow identification to one's ethnic group. He's said so many times. If you want his views in his own words, this is what he said on the day of the coup, and this is what he told the United Nations to explain his actions (video here). I put those links at the bottom of the article a while ago. Aridd (talk) 12:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Bainimarama's religious affiliation
The news media seems to have no idea at all what Bainimarama's religion is. I have read dozens of conflicting reports in the media - some of them quoting members of his family - claiming variously that he is "Methodist" or "Catholic".

The evidence that he was Catholic-educated is pretty clear.

In this Fiji Sun interview, Bainimarama declares, "You must remember I'm a member of the Methodist Church." That appears to settle his present religious affiliation. What remains unclear is whether he formally converted or informally switched his church attendance, and when.  Publicly declaring himself to be Methodist seems curious in view of his repeated attacks on the Methodist hierarchy.  David Cannon (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall reading that he's tried to set up a "new" Methodist Church, alongside the old one. In any case, holding particular religious beliefs wouldn't prevent him from disagreeing with his Church's clergy. And Fiji's Methodist Church is heavily politicised. Aridd (not logged in), September 29, 2009.

In the video "Bainimarama speaks out" here, he has said again "I am a member of the Methodist Church". Aridd (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

This source (from 2010) also indicates that he's a Methodist. And since he said so himself in 2012, I'm going to edit the article accordingly. Aridd (talk) 14:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced criminal allegations
Biographies of living persons says that "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". Thus I've removed a section on allegations of threats and intimidation supposedly committed by Bainimarama. I'm less sure what to do about the "Political controversies" section, most of which is unsourced. For now, I'm added tags, but the material which can't be sourced should probably be removed altogether. Aridd (talk) 13:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Your article about Fiji's dictator contains a lot of lies. A number of Fiji citizens have said that they tried to update it with facts but you have consistently removed their edits. They even added two reports on Bainimarama, which does not show. One report by the RFMF Board of Inquiry into the involvement of soldiers in the 2000 coup and another report by Col Mara, a compilation of affidavits and statements from soldiers and CRW soldiers who had acted under orders from Bainimarama and Bainimarama then had imprisoned to deflect blame from himself.

therefore, they see no reason why they or their constituents and contacts should be donating any funds to a medium that supports a dictator who has killed his own soldiers, killed citizens and an unborn child by jumping on the back of its mother who Bainimarama himself had forced to lay face down on a cricket pitch.

Truly disappointed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.225.1.79 (talk • contribs)
 * Your allegations were unsourced or sourced only to a blog. Wikipedia cannot accept these without reliable sources. If you can find suitable sources, please post them here on the talk page for evaluation.- gadfium 06:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

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Strange article - many details missing
Information about place of birth and family origins should be placed higher up, near the top of the article. Details about his parents should be provided. And his primary-school's name is missing.
 * The Infobox (officeholder) I believe is like that; it puts the position/portfolio at the top and the personal details at the bottom by default. For the primary school, please provide sources and you can add it yourself. The same goes for his parents. Thanks. KRtau16 (talk) 00:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I don;t have any sources and I appreciate that written reliable sources are not always easy to find for that period in Fiji. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.22.252.68 (talk) 16:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

"Frank Bananarama" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Frank Bananarama and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. &#8209;&#8209;Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 13:28, 19 December 2022 (UTC)