Talk:Frank Gehry/Archive 1

Does this sound like it should be in an encyclopedia?
I'm asking because a lot of what I read in this article is personal opinion. The best example is one of the last line's in Criticism, "This argument ignores the unprecedented amount of power Gehry holds in negotiations with clients, and the artistic integrity he must possess in order to achieve what he has. The similarities in his latest masterpieces are more akin to an artist fleshing out the frontier of a stylistic universe then a hack stamping out product for demanding clients."

Umm, I'm no publisher but that probably wouldn't be something found in a professional Encyclopedia that you'd pay money for. I'm no architect so honestly I'm no help, but this REALLY needs a clean up tag and a good re-write. Meat and potatoes guys! No opinions! 76.172.250.188 07:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, the Criticism is unattributed - in that it's from an anonymous blog. It's a valid section, but there needs to be something more authoritative. 203.158.47.210 (talk) 00:39, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Duesseldorf Buildings
Why Duesseldorf's Neuer Zollhof buildings are not even mentioned in the article? See: Neuer_Zollhof

Canadian architect
I see that Gehry has been categorized as a "Canadian architect" Since he moved to the U.S. as a teenager, was educated in the U.S., and his whole career has been based in the U.S., that does not seem to be an accurate categorization. I'd split the difference and call him a U.S. architect and a person from Canada. Any other thoughts? -Willmcw July 5, 2005 21:17 (UTC)


 * Frank Gehry was Born in Canada, Done Work in Canada , and been given the Order of Canada. So to Me that Classifies Him As A Canadian.


 * He moved when he was a young person, was educated in the states, has been based in the LA area for his entire professional career, and is a naturalized American citizen... Bruce Willis was born in Germany, maybe he should be considered a German actor! Bobak 02:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * just show gehry was born on an american military base to americans... then yes, your logic will make sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.201.34.237 (talk • contribs).

Frank Gehry is a naturalized american citizen. He holds few, if any, ties to his native born Toronto in his day to day work. Furthermore, the archectural world considers his work to be derived almost exclusively from his experiences in Los Angeles. Considering his comments and practice on the disposable commodity of architecture and it's pop value with his seminal work in Santa Monica, on Wilshire Boulevard being LA's "linear" downtown, the exclusive emphasis of his Canadian nationalism in the opening passage is wishful in thinking, pretensive, and intellectually dishonest as it completely depends on the rather undemonstrable, limited impact of Gehry's having been physically born and raised in Canada, especially in light if his long-renounced Canadian citizenship. At the least, also emphasize that Gehry is currently a Los Angeles architect, as no architecture scholar would attribute to Toronto a significant amount of influence on his work, especially considering he is often referred to as part of an emerging but controversial "Los Angeles School" or "Santa Monica School" of architecture. I have additionally to suggest that the writer of this article educate him/herself more on the meaning of decon, modernism, and it's relationship with Frank Gehry. I don't believe the writer understands the meaning of decon, modernism, or Gehry's allegiance to it, and this article deserves severe formatting if it seeks to become credible to an actual architect. I truly believe the writer "googled" bits and pieces of Gehry-related info with little genuine understanding of arhitecture, and tried to pass off this information as researched. It appears this article is a vain and shameful attempt by a Canadian sympathist to tie Gehry to Toronto at the expense of all other truths. I don't feel like editing the entire article right now, but if no genuinely knowlegable (and honest) person decides to step in, I'll eventually delete the whole thing myself and start anew.


 * Folks, none of this is relevant. Wikipedia editors do not assess facts, we simply present them.  He has both Canadian and American citizenship - that makes him Canadian-American.  Period.  Until those facts change, that is how he should be described.  It is not up to us to assess whether he is more of one versus the other.  209.202.119.246 (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, and the fact is that he was born in Canada, so he is "Canadian-born", and he is a naturalized American citizen who resides and is headquartered in the US, so "Canadian-born American architect" is a perfectly accurate and factual statement which does not "assess" the relative importance of those two things.  Please do not change it again with getting a consensus to do so from this talk page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:11, 1 September 2017 (UTC)


 * He is not just Canadian-born - he is a Canadian citizen. It is inaccurate to suggest that he is not a dual national.  There was a consensus on Canadian–American.76.66.104.246 (talk) 11:08, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I see no such implication. Please do not alter this while discussion is under way, until a consensus is reached. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:31, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup required
IMO, this article badly needs a rewrite. It doesn't follow any real structure, and in some places is a bit POV. I'm going to add a cleanup tag so hopefully it will get some more attention. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:02, 26 July 2005 (utc)

2 things: get a better Chiat/Day photo + "Most famous work"?
Two quick things: Bobak 02:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The photo of Chiat/Day ("the binocular building") is incomplete. The person who took it must not have realized the white structure to the left is a part of the original iconic design (although it isn't as obvious as the other two sections).  I hope someone in LA can take a better photo including the whole facade.
 * Bilbao is certainly once of his more notable works, but it's a little hasty to label it his most famous. At best, it's a distinction that can be made in the (hopefully far) future when he's pushing up daisies.

^I definitely agree. I've formatted it to sound a bit less suggestive.

I would argue that Bilbao is his single most famous work to date. It marked major breakthroughs in both construction (aviation software used to feed computer model to the machining equipment, which bent the metal with precision into otherwise impossible forms) and building materials technology (the team spent months developing treatments for the titanium---and who who else has a titanium building?!?!). It also receives huge amounts of attention simply for its radical appearance. You'll be hard-pressed to find discussion about Gehry published since Bilbao's construction that doesn't mention it. The building itself "put Bilbao on the map" on a global scale. It is an archetypal example of Architourism. Also, it established Gehry's signature twisted metal forms more aggressively (more purely and on a larger scale) than any project before it. The building is also an important example in specific topics, including museum expansions (a major issue at the moment, as the Guggenheim and Louvre both pursue controversial expansion projects) and economic revitalization. Bilbao has become important not just as a building but as a model of the revitalization process. Since Bilbao Gehry has received many commissions that use the same techniques and forms. This includes not only buildings, which there have been many of, but also consumer items such as his line of jewelry for Tiffany&Co. Though "most famous" is very subjective, it is very arguably the case. And I would bet that, if one were inclined to collect quantitative data from all published materials regarding Frank Gehry, Bilbao would be his most-mentioned project.Ninjakiyoko 06:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

- I completely agree with Ninjakiyoko. It's not called "The Bilbao Effect" for nothing. His building rejuvenated Bilbao's economy - a city of mere 400,000 people - to the point of generating 1.6 Billion EURO for the museum in the first decade alone ("Conversations with Frank Gehry" by Barbara Isenberg - page 132). It also put Gehry on the map in a way that hasn't happened for him before. It gave him the exposure needed to get other projects and to finish existing ones - The Walt Disney Concert Hall wouldn't get finished had it not been for Bilbao (page 148). Also, what's the distinction between "most notable" and "most famous"? Is that not splitting hairs? - anamatv 17:23, Mar 23, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anamatv (talk • contribs) 21:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

winery
Several years ago it was announced that Gehry would be designing a winery near Niagara Falls http://www.arcspace.com/architects/gehry/Winery/index.htm I couldn't find any recent information about whether the project is going forward or has been cancelled. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.57.222.127 (talk • contribs).

Peix d'Or (The Golden Fish)
I'm wondering why The Golden Fish in the Barcelona Olympic Harbour is not listed among his works.

Santa Monica School of Architecture
Dear folks:

I'm not sure the term Santa Monica School of Architecture is really apt here. It's not a term that most architectural historians use. it may be a worthwhile phrase, but I would love to see it discussed a bit. I have seen the term pop up in student papers due to its mention in wiki.

thoreau


 * Good thought. I added a statement on the "Santa Monica School" and "Los Angeles School" which avoids the confusion. I have seen the phrases thrown around a bit in architecture circles, but I have yet to see it formalized in academic circles with the same weight of usage as the historic Bauhaus, Chicago, or New York Schools. Thanks for the suggestion.

influenced by steiner???
gehry is listed in a list of scientists scholars, authors and artists who have been deeply influenced by Steiner anybody an opinion on this? trueblood 07:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. It should be mentioned. The article could be better written and much better researched. Gingermint (talk) 05:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Anon blanking and additions
There was a bunch of incremental blanking by one anon of contributions by another anon. I've reverted the blanking but someone knowledgable should probably verify the additions. Kellen T 12:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin
He is of Polish-Jewish origin. I know that from Polityka, a leading Polish magazine. Kowalmistrz 21:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Frank Gehry was the subject of Finding Your Roots on 2 Feb 2016. (Season 3, episode 5). This could be mined for lots of origin information. Unfortunately I didn't take notes while watching it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.80.187.234 (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph
"his private residence in Santa Monica, California, the latter of which jump-started his substantive career and lifted it from the stature of "paper architecture", a phenomenon in which many famous architects are observed to have experienced their formative decades experimenting almost exclusively on paper before receiving their first major commission in their later years." Not exactly true. He had designed dozens of buildings before that point, and had 45 people working for him. - Richy 14:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Deconstructivism
The articles states that Gehry's work is sometimes considered Deconstructivist, though Gehry disavows association with the movement. It must be noted that Gehry was included in the somewhat "definitive" (at least in the architectural cannon) exhibition titled "Deconstructivist Architecture" curated by Philip Johnson and Mark Wigley at the Museum of Modern Art in 1988. This exhibition effectively launched deconstructivism as a clearly defined genre, and Gehry was indeed one of the 7 architects chosen to be in the group. I would assume that Gehry gave his consent in some way in order for his work to be included in this exhibition, and if a source can prove that he did consent, it proves that Gehry did in at least one way associate himself openly with the docnstructivist style. Let us not forget the impact Philip Johnson's "International Style" exhibition had on the international scene. Regardless of Gehry's personal wishes, he must be considered a deconstructivist.

Further proof of Gehry's deconstructivist stylistic tendencies is found in his own Santa Monica home, which is very literally deconstructivist; the house is cut open to make visible the frame and other construction materials, then added onto with a similar aesthetic. Is this debatable?

Additionally, the section about deconstructivism contains excess information that should be moved to the deconstructivism page. Ninjakiyoko 18 March 2007

Nationality
An anon editor recently edited the infobox to indicate that Gehry's nationality is "Dual American / Canadian Citizen". The edit was reverted by User:Freshacconci.

Gehry is a dual citizen. Absent a source indicting that Gehry no longer considers himself Canadian (which may actually not be sufficient), or has renounced his Canadian citizenship, his nationality is both American and Canadian. Any assessment of his nationality (such as the older discussion above) based on his perceived "ties" to either country, or whether or not his work reflects his adopted hometown rather than the country of his birth, is an innappropriate violation of WP:OR. The fact that he has lived in L.A. most of his life is irrelevant -- the infobox input deals with nationality, not place of residence. Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

early works vs later works
I think this needs a discussion of Gehry's early, more conservative works in the 1980s compared to the more radical designs that came after. What was the genesis of the change in style? Was it simply that they couldn't be designed and/or built without advanced CAD systems, or that clients rejected his designs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.54.128 (talk) 21:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

That would be very interesting. And certainly more pictures! Gingermint (talk) 05:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Gehry Residence
Since there's nothing here about the Gehry Residence, I think the redirect from Gehry Residence to here should be removed. King Spook 04:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kngspook (talk • contribs)

Architectural style
The first sentence in this section begins with "In that sense, DeCon is often referred to as post-structuralist in nature...", but in what sense? Whoever wrote this sentence needs to have another sentence preceding this one, or have it start out as "In a sense" I don't know what the writer intended to say, so I don't feel comfortable changing or editing this section, especially because I came to this article to get more information on Frank Gehry, not add info. If anyone can fix this, that would be great. Shu ster (talk) 14:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikify name
The box shows the name:  [Frank O'Gehry]Frank Owen Gehry . Is this intentional, or could someone wikify it? -DePiep (talk) 21:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Again: is this the correct name: [Frank O'Gehry]Frank Owen Gehry? Cannot find it in sources. Any one a confirmation? -DePiep (talk) 03:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Image gallery
Right now, the image gallery doesn't really meet the policy over at WP:IG - it's just a random collection of images of Gehry buildings that should really be moved over to the Commons. It could be improved in keeping with WP:IG if, say for example, we organized images showing the evolution of Gehry's style over the years, or perhaps a gallery that shows some of the signature elements of Gehry's style. I am not sure - someone with more familiarity with Gehry and the images that we have at our disposal (both here and at the Commons) would probably be able to come up with something. Otherwise, however, we should really be making sure that all of the images in the gallery are over at the Commons, and the gallery should be deleted. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No feedback thus far. Unless I hear otherwise, I may just delete the gallery in the next week or so, unless someone has better idea(s).  --Skeezix1000 (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Given no suggestions were put forward to improve it in accordance with the policy, I have removed the gallery. I transferred any local images to the Commons.  --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Spinning off Building section
Because Frank Gehry has created a significant amount of buildings, spinning off a list of buildings would make sense. Oldag07 (talk) 04:14, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * All for it. I've just given it a tidy, it needs more work. The works in progress is still a bit of a mess. I've tried to sort it, but there are some that I don't know if they're completed or even started. Jaydec   (talk)  08:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I vote for it also because the list on this page has gotten to long. Maybe after, if a "list of works" page is created, we just list a few of the most notable completed works on this page then re-direct for the complete list.  Cygnusloop99 (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I have started work on it in my User:Oldag07/Sandbox. Please help edit it before it is public. I think I will put it up sometime this Saturday.Oldag07 (talk) 05:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Snowed in. I got some free time. I am going to move it. Oldag07 (talk) 23:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * DoneOldag07 (talk) 23:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Criticism - Proper Section
I love Frank Gehry's work, but frankly some of it deserves fair criticism. The current section on criticism stars off with what could only be hearsay "Some have said:". It's the internet-age equivalent of "I know a guy who told somebody". The add insult to injury, the current citations cite a website and a blog. The Economist reference is good, but it stands alone.

Without sparking a debate on 'old vs. new' media, could we not agree that pointing to a Blogger site criticizing Frank Gehry shouldn't pass the bar for actual, proper criticism? The man spend his life designing buildings and suddenly any guy with a Google account on blogger has the right to offer his/her 2 cents of criticism? Umm, no. On the Blogger site, the author blames Gehry for designing a convex lens in downtown LA. It's a zingy punch-line, but it's not always the architect who makes that choice, but the property owner. Barbara Isenberg in "Conversations with Frank Gehry" addressed the sidewalk-heat issue and Gehry told her that a) he knew it was going to do that and told his clients, but they wouldn't listen & b) he initially wanted to build the concert hall out of stone, but the Disney people, after seeing Bilbao, wanted metal and nothing else (pages 239-240) That's just one example of the misinformed criticism that can come from bloggers.

What I'm proposing is this - can we focus on the criticism that comes from art and architecture critics, other architects and clients, not just bloggers or people with websites. Because there is plenty of criticism coming from established critics.

Also, I'll leave the Criticism section as is for a week or so. But the "Some have said:" line has to go - it's "Bloggers have said". We need well-cited criticism from actual experts who understand the field, but may not necessarily agree with Gehry's design choices. Anamatv (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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Changing his last name from Goldberg to Gehry
Frank Gehry's ancestry was explored on Finding Your Roots in February 2016. The Salon reference may be incorrect. In Finding Your Roots Gehry states that he chose to change his last name, and he did it with trepidation. His parents do not appear to have changed their name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.80.187.234 (talk) 16:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

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Prince of Asturias Award
I'm disputing the neutrality of the following statement within the article. I have removed editorialized puff that couldn't be substantiated by the source, but it has been reverted. It would be appropriate to remove the word "prestigious", because that is not how it is described in cited sources and adding weasel words like this is POV and makes it less encyclopedic.

"Gehry is known for his sometimes cantankerous personality. During a trip to Oviedo, Spain, to accept the prestigious Prince of Asturias Award in October 2014, he received a significant amount of attention, both positive and negative, for publicly flipping off a reporter at a press conference who accused him of being a "showy" architect."

Graywalls (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed - also, I should point out that 'flipping off' is meaningless to anyone other than Americans. Far too colloquial. VeritasVox (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Personal note
Medical stuff happening in RL. I should be able to return to this discussion within a week. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)