Talk:Frank Sinatra/Archive 1

Spouses
Hm...one glaring omission from this article is that there is no mention of Sinatra's spouses. --Johnleemk 09:09, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Let me get working on that... --SeanO 13:08, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

That was a bit of work... But quite satisfying... I used the title Married with Children for the section in honor of Frank's Love and Marriage being the themesong to said tv show. --SeanO 21:32, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)


 * No mention of Nancy Reagan? - Sparky 19:27, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Songs section: misleading and should be scrapped
This section is not so useful. First, Sinatra didn't actually write any of them, as the title incorrectly suggests. He didn't even make many of the famous; most were well-known tunes before he sang them. About the only songs associated only with him are "New York, New York", the duet with Nancy, and maybe one or two others. The only possibly useful list might be a list of songs of his which were actually hits. -- Viajero 12:29, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Don't worry. I think I fixed the problem. Marcus2 12:58, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * No you didn't. You just moved it somewhere else. -- Viajero 13:11, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Even some songs aren't as notable, it should not hurt that they be mentioned. Marcus2 13:14, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Also, these songs were sung by Sinatra, so they count. Marcus2 13:16, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * You are missing the point. While all encyclopedias have raw data, our main goal is synthesizing and distilling information from rata data. How about instead of devoting your energies to that list of songs that Sinatra sang (which already exists on the Internet), how about creating a list for this article of the records that were million sellers or songs that were top 10 or top 40? This is what this article needs. -- Viajero 13:33, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't think songs should have to be distinguished by how high they charted. Marcus2 13:48, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * It's probably appropriate to indicate the major hits, but the listing should be as complete as possible. (Oh BTW, Viajero clearly doesn't understand that the combining of singer and songwriter is a relatively new phenomenon. A singer back then was no more expected to write his own songs than people are expected to build the car they drive!) --- BRG 15:29, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you are quite wrong. As most people who like music from the 1940s and 50s, I am keenly aware of the distinction between singer and songwriter. However, that heading suggested that the songs were either written by him or made famous by him, which wasn't the case, except for a couple, from the 60s or later, that were written expressly for him. One may argue that Sinatra recorded the definitive version of "My Favorite Valentine", but it is indisputable that it was recorded by many singers before and after him. Look, all I am saying is: if we are to list songs, let's have some intelligent criteria for doing so. -- Viajero 16:57, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * "My Favorite Valentine", eh? Sorry  -- I don't know that one (and neither did Mr. Sinatra).  Perhaps you're thinking of "My Funny Valentine".  That's nowhere near Sinatra's most definitive song, tho'.  How about "New York, New York"?  How about "One for My Baby (and One More for the Road)"?  How about "My Way"?  "I've Got You Under My Skin"?  "It was a Very Good Year"?  EVERY ONE OF THESE -- Sinatra's version was the definitive one; ALL were made famous by him.Bricology 01:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, Frank did sing the songs mentioned, so that's what counts. I think we should leave it for now until someone brings details about which songs reached the top 40 and top 10, because I'm not too familiar about how high the songs charted. Marcus2 20:33, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * No, that cannot be the sole defining criteria, since he probably sang at least five hundred songs, perhaps more. -- Viajero 21:03, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, that's why I split the songs section from the list. When the list gets too large, then it should be split. Marcus2 10:28, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * You're so right Viajero. As a pianist I get so sick of people asking for Frank Sinatra numbers. I don't know any (but I do know lots of Gershwin, Cole Porter, Richard Rodgers, etc. etc.) Adambisset 11:59, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Career
From the Wikipedia article on NPOV

1. An encyclopedic article should not argue that corporations are criminals, even if the author believes it to be so. It should instead present the fact that some people believe it, and what their reasons are, and then as well it should present what the other side says.

Since edit below from the article's main body does not in my judgment at least seem to conform to that policy inasmuch that it argues that he was an ill-tempered brute - even more so than most (???), it is being moved here for disccussion Aucociscokid 23:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Sinatra could be enormously generous and kind, but he always had a hair-trigger temper. He once ripped a phone out of the wall at the Sands Hotel, broke some windows and set part of the office on fire.  Asked an innocent question by a reporter outside one of President Kennedy's pre-inaugural balls, Sinatra barked: "Where are you from? Bulgaria?"


 * A series of recent low-grade brawling incidents had been widely covered in the media on the night in 1957 that Sinatra and some of his Rat Pack pals dropped in on the act of insult comedian Don Rickles at a Hollywood club called the Slate Brothers. Rickles, who spared no one during his act, immediately ad libbed: "Here's Frank Sinatra.  Make yourself at home, Frank.  Hit somebody."  After an awed silence, broken only by a few titters on the floor, Sinatra laughed with gusto and the tension was broken.


 * Far more than most men, Sinatra's moods careened from hot anger to keen amusement. Enraged by a casino manager named Carl Cohen, Sinatra dumped hot coffee on Cohen, who responded by punching Sinatra in the mouth so hard it knocked out both of Sinatra's front teeth.   Sinatra shrugged and eventually concluded, as he told Kirk Douglas, "Never fight a Jew in the desert."


 * These edits try to show Sinatra as a complex, multi-dimensional person with both good and bad points: generous, bad-tempered, able to laugh at himself, moody, lacking impulse control, able to admit mistakes. Since you are only interested in a one-dimensional portrait of Sinatra, one that lacks personality and life, I can understand why you yanked them.  Fortunately the legend of Sinatra exists far and wide outside of Wikipedia, and will thus survive this bowdlerized rendition.  Wasted Time R 00:29, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * And by the way, au, the Rickles story you yanked is also present in the Don Rickles article. You'd better remove it from there too.   Wasted Time R 00:32, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You say you want to create <> Where's the part in your edit about the good points and his ability to admit mistakes?


 * I'm also the one whom suggested adding that part of his daughter, Tina's, biography about the role Sam Giancana and he played in delivering the labor vote to JFK in the 1960 WVA presidential primary which may have played a decisive role in it. + I added the quote from The Man himself where he says he knew organized criminals as anyone would have anyone who worked in the nightclubs of 1920s-1960s America. What more do you want? A complete cataloguing of each and every meeting, too? To what end/For what purpose? I, also, am not concerned with what may or may not be contained on any other Wiki entry. Why should I be? Aucociscokid 03:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

kidnapping of son
The article says "Sinatra paid the kidnappers' $240,000 ransom demand [...] and his son was released unharmed on December 10."

A documentary on British TV didn't mention the handover of money, but did say FBI found the kidnappper's hideout, and that 3,000(!) FBI were on the case at the time. Can anyone clarify? --[[User:Bodnotbod| bodnotbod »  .....TALK Q uietly  )  ]] 20:35, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

Alcoholism
The same documentary (What's Inside Frank Sinatra's Coffin on Channel 4) said that Sinatra began drinking very heavily later in life. One interviewee saying he had a bottle of JD, a bottle of white wine and a bottle of red every day. Sounds a recipe for copious vomiting to me, and I love a drink, I do. Anyone able to include something about this? --[[User:Bodnotbod| bodnotbod »  .....TALK Q uietly  )  ]] 21:02, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

It was mentioned in an official biography.

Discography
I find it strange that a detailed list of Sinatra's albums are missing, since he made so many of them. I think it's logical we add such a discography. I want to take task on me, but I need to know if something like this wasn't deleted before or something? :) Switcher 02:16, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I must admit I found the lack of discography to be strange as well. I think if one is to be developed it should have its own page due to the sheer number of recordings Sinatra issued. --Cholmes75 14:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Organized Crime
The Organized Crime section of the "Frank Sinatra" article needs editing badly in that what is currently posted there is far from being objective consisting, as it does of the innuendo that has circulated about him for years.

(I note there was an attempt yesterday, 5/09/05, to remove most of that section - not by me - which was restored.)Aucocisco Kid


 * I don't mind seeing that material go, but if the person(s) who added it disagree, you will have to defend your decision. That being said, a line or two on his personality might not be out of place. BTW, the easiest way to sign you can sign your posts is to type a tilde (~) four times; the system automatically substitutes your name and the date/time. -- Viajero 10:35, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * It is my belief that the organized crime section is NPOV, although citations would be useful. It is not controversial that Sinatra was frequently alleged to have had connections with organized crime; to fail to report that these allegations exist would be sloppy on our part.  The behavior section needs citations.  Kelly Martin 17:06, May 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * I think in discussing an artist's art the Bold textprimaryBold text focus should be the art in that it is possible to divorce it from whom the artist was or is as a person or human being.


 * When discussed it should be done so in the context of the totality of who that person is or was and how that totality contributed to the art.


 * For instance, the movie director John Ford was a mean, nasty, rotten, drunken, SOB. If that's all he was, he'd be just one of millions. But he was also a genius who created an art form - the cinema - from his imagination.


 * One probably did contribute to the other, but in what way and to what degree has to be carefully weighed because to favor one over the other or to give more weight to one over the other would be unfair.


 * I think FSs ties to organized crime should dealt with in the same context as Elvis Presley's homosexuality is in his article.


 * There is also a much better point of departure for exploring that subject and that is in his daughter Tina's biography,Italic textMy Father's DaughterItalic text, who does (and I think authoritatively) discuss the subject in the context of the 1960 presidential election. Aucociscokid 18:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Italic text"One of his uncles, Babe Gavarante..."Italic text This is guilt by association which I think is unfair. My maternal grandmother, her mother and father, their other children, and several aunts, uncles, and cousins came here from Italy at a time and to an area, what is now Spanish Harlem, when it was a hotbed of organized crime; most of its hierarchy was born and operated out of there. Some of my realtives may have even been involved at the periphery. But would it be a fair statement that I am involved with organized crime?


 * Italic textJoseph "Doc" Stacher later recalled of the Havana meetingItalic textOne of the reasons law enforcement has often discounted conversations gathered by electronic eavesdropping devices, such as the DeCarlo tapes" on which FS is frequently mentioned, is that organized crime figures in private are notorious embellishers; its hard to discern whether what they are saying is true or is merely being to enhance their own status within the organization. I was involved with government in New Jersey at the time the De Carlo tapes were recorded. Aucociscokid 20:20, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

It was I who put together the subsection on organised crime, which was subsequently altered by others. I also added the notorious image of him with assorted mafioso. The job of the encyclopedia is to report what is said about his life, his alleged mafia connections have been widely discussed and wikipedia must outline these speculations. I carefully worded three paragraphs domumenting the speculation about those links so as to make it clear that though there is strong evidence of general association, nothing is proven. The point is not to prove guilt or innocence, or even "guilt by association" but to deliniate the speculations and evidence.

I am going to replace the section as I had it originally and it can be discussed from there

jucifer 5 July 2005 00:28 (UTC)

I replaced the edit before it was taken down. I really see no NPOV here, it is utterly anodine, making no allegations merely documenting allegations and witness testimony.

The only part that is debatable in my view, is the reference to his uncle, however in view of his later personal relationship with Moreti (acording to his testimny) I think it should stay, to provide a context. Furthermore, an uncle convicted of murder is in itself a life event worthy of mention in a biography of so seminal a public figure.

jucifer 5 July 2005 00:48 (UTC)

The organized crime section is hearsay and guilt by association and should be deleted. 4.18.42.243 07:43, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Funeral Site Correction: The funeral was held on May 20th at The Church of the Good Shepherd in Beverly Hills, Ca. It is the oldest church in Beverly Hills and seats 600. Source: www.seeing-stars.com/churches/goodshepherd.shtml

I put the organized crime section back into the article. Perhaps the organized crime section can be improved - any edits that could do so I would welcome. But to just wholesale remove it is to perform revisionist history on the article and Sinatra. It's pertending that part of Sintra's life didn't exist. JesseG 16:29, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

<<The character Johnny Fontane in the book and movie The Godfather is widely viewed as having been inspired by Frank Sinatra and his alleged connections. Indeed, Sinatra was furious with Godfather author Mario Puzo over the Fontane character and reportedly confronted Puzo in public with profane threats. However, those involved in the making of the movie (primarily Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo) deny any intended similarities between Fontane and Sinatra.

Yet the similarities exist. The "bandleader story" from The Godfather is similar to the rumored story of how Sinatra got out of his contract with bandleader Tommy Dorsey. Sinatra's contract with Dorsey specified that he would have to pay Dorsey one-third of his earnings for life and an additional 10 percent to Dorsey’s agent. In short, 43 percent of Frank Sinatra would belong to Tommy Dorsey and his agent forever. As Sinatra's popularity started to grow, he began seeking ways to separate himself from Dorsey. In 1943, Sinatra’s representatives tried to get him out of the contract, offering Dorsey $60,000 to rip it up, but Dorsey refused. By some accounts, hard negotiation eventually convinced the bandleader to take the offer. Yet, other accounts say that Sinatra’s godfather, Willie Moretti, presented Dorsey with "an offer he couldn't refuse". Sinatra has denied that Moretti had anything to do with it, but Moretti bragged in private that he and a few associates jammed the barrel of a gun into Dorsey's mouth and got him to release Sinatra from his obligations in exchange for one dollar. In 1951 Dorsey talked about the incident to a reporter from American Mercury magazine, describing his meeting with three men who, according to Sinatra biographer J. Randy Taraborrelli, “talked out of the sides of their mouths and ordered him to ‘sign or else.’”>>

Deleted and moved to this section because Sinatra was released from his contract with Dorsey because of the intervention of Jules Stein, the founder of the agency MCA. Stein persuaded Dorsey to take $75,000 ($25,000 of which Sinatra paid himself) and some additional bookings for his band through MCA in exchange for letting Sinatra out of his contract. In return Sinatra switched agencies - from Rockwell-O'Keefe to MCA. Aucociscokid 06:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

<<He had associations with and did favors for Charles Fischetti, a notorious Chicago mobster dating back to 1946, according to the FBI. Sinatra was also friends with Charles' brother Joseph, who ran the Fontainebleau Hotel complex in Miami, who arranged work for him and introduced him to Charles Luciano in Havana. After Luciano's deportation to Italy, Sinatra visited him at least twice, singing at a 1946 Christmas Party and gifting the famed mobster with a gold cigarette case engraved "To my dear pal Charlie, from his friend Frank" the next year. These visits were widely reported by the media and used as further evidence of Sinatra's ties to the mob, haunting him for the rest of his life. Among the allegations were the two million dollars that Sinatra gave Luciano. As Joseph "Doc" Stacher later recalled of the Havana meeting, "The Italians among us were all very proud of Frank. They always told me they had spent a lot of money helping him in his career ever since he was in Tommy Dorsey&#8217;s band. Lucky Luciano was very fond of Frank&#8217;s singing. Frankie flew into Havana with the Fischettis, with whom he was very friendly, but of course, our meeting had nothing to do with hearing him croon&#8230;Everyone brought envelopes of money for Luciano &#8230;But more important, they came to pay allegiance to him." The "Havana" allegations - while the basis of rumors for Sinatra's mob ties - have never been proved, and Luciano himself denied there was any criminal association in his autobiography.>>

Deleted and moved to this section because the information contained therein can not be verified as per Wikipedia rules + a mobster, Joseph Stacher, can not by any stretch of the imagination be thought as reliable as in "reliable source" also per Wikipedia policy. Aucociscokid 06:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

<<One of his uncles, Babe Gavarante, was a member of a Bergen County armed gang connected to the organization of Willie Moretti. Gavarante was convicted of murder in 1921 in connection with an armed robbery in which he had driven the get-away car. Sinatra was also allegedly personally linked to Willie Moretti, his first wife Nancy Barbato was a cousin of one of his senior henchmen and he sang at his daughter's wedding in 1948. According to testimony from Moretti, Sinatra received help from him in arranging performances in return for kick-backs.

Sinatra had a strong friendship with Samuel Beckett who always wore a sapphire friendship ring given to him by Sinatra, and who ordered the killing of 200 people. A number of alleged incidents have been noted where people who angered Sinatra have been threatened by Giancana's mob.>>

Deleted & moved to this section for the same reasons cited above: lack of a cited source + a mobster can not be considered to be "a reliable source," especially one like Morretti who had a veneral disease which affected his mental abilities Aucociscokid 07:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The character Johnny Fontane in the book and movie The Godfather is widely viewed as having been inspired by Frank Sinatra and his alleged connections. Indeed, Sinatra was furious with Godfather author Mario Puzo over the Fontane character and reportedly confronted Puzo in public with profane threats. However, those involved in the making of the movie (primarily Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo) deny any intended similarities between Fontane and Sinatra.

But some of the story of the character Johnny Fontane was embellished for the film. The scene in which Johnny asks the Godfather to pressure a Hollywood director to give him a part in a movie that was "sure to make him a star" is a loose reference to Sinatra's role in From Here to Eternity, a role which earned him an Academy Award in 1954. However, the widely held belief that Sinatra’s godfather leaned on Harry Cohn, the head of Columbia Pictures, to force him to cast Sinatra is untrue. Unlike the producer in the film, Cohn never woke up to find a severed horse’s head in his bed.
 * Deleted & moved here because not only are no sources cited, but the two people who should know best: Coppola & Puzo say the statement is not correct. Aucociscokid 03:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Organized crime section deletion
I think the proper process would be to initate a vote for deletion for that section...I think there's such a thing. Until then, I think it should remain. You could dispute the neutrality of the article, if you'd like. --- Mike 07:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * As been discussed at length in other contexts, a vote is not a satisfactory way of resolving these kinds of issues because it does not work towards achieving concensus. In my opinion, if the mafia allegations stay, they should be attributed to someone (ie, Kitty Kelly). -- Viajero | Talk 13:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Edited again.Slander and maligning someone are anodyne? FAS gave $2MM to Charles Luciana? How? those are my comments signed 4.18.42.243 as well. Aucociscokid


 * Over the past few days, the organized crime section was removed by an anon edit and Aucociscokid, and restored by Mshecket and Juicifer; nor is this first time this cycle has repeated itself since this material is added. At this point, there is only one solution: these allegations must be attributed to someone, ie, a book, newspaper or magazine article which is verifiable. Once this is done, there will be no justification for removing this material. If it is not done, then various editors will -- rightfully -- feel free to remove it.
 * Juicifer: you took credit above for adding this information. How about digging up some citations? If these allegations are as common as some people suggest they are, then this should not be hard at all. If however you are unable or unwilling to, then you can't complain if someone removes this text again. -- Viajero | Talk 16:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

-Point Taken- Unfortunatly I don't have the time for that right now, some of the points are sourced, however those that arn't are all from online research i did one afternoon. If someone could take the time to find the sources (which are multitudinous)and which seem to be entirely undisputed it would be great. Again Sinatra was never convicted of any crime, however no biography of him has ever skimmed over this issue - so neither can wikipedia. If someone is unhappy with a passage they can IMPROVE it. DELETING a passage because it lacks citations is not a valid responce - the correct responce is to find citations (or fail to find citations and remove unsoursable lines after a explanation in the talk page.)

Try googling "sinatra mafia" or some such. The citations are ENDLESS.

jucifer 00:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The explanation for the deletion is that the author themselves say these are just rumors and nothing has been proven. What is said about FAS & Charles Luciana, for instance, was based on reporting by Westbrook Pegler, against whom Quentin Reynolds won a famous slander judgment. FAS was shown carrying an attache case as he stepped off a plane in Havana in which Pegler alleged he was carrying $2MM for Luciana. It has since been demonstrated that $2MM in $100 bills - the largest denomination in circulation - couldn't be fit in the case. What isn't rumor is guilt by association - something we decided as society was unfair back in the 50s. To include rumors and use such tactics detracts from the Wikipedia's integrity. If something must said, a starting point is is Tina Sinatra's book about her father cited supra. But what has to be said truthfully about the subject is not going to be researched in an afternoon, not on the Internet, nor quickly written.Aucociscokid


 * Jucifer wrote above:
 * Unfortunatly I don't have the time for that right now, some of the points are sourced


 * What are you talking about? There is not a single citation in that entire section. There is no indication where any of that information came from.


 * ''DELETING a passage because it lacks citations is not a valid responce
 * Sorry, but you are incorrect. Cite sources explicitly states:
 * Disputed statements for which a credible source has not been provided may be removed from Wikipedia articles.
 * It goes on to say: The disputed material should generally be moved to the article's talk page, to give an opportunity for editors to identify sources for the material. So, in fact this material should be moved here.


 * Try googling "sinatra mafia" or some such. The citations are ENDLESS.
 * I am sure you are right, but I am not going to do your work for you. If you are unwilling or unable to provide citations, then you have no right to revert Aucociscokid or any other editor who wants to remove it.
 * For my part, I think this article should address the mafia allegations, but I agree with Aucociscokid: it needs to be based on solid research. -- Viajero | Talk 17:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I came to the talk page to query something but reading it, I realise how it happened. I was reading the article today and there is no mention of organised crime in it until the note about what he is said to have been buried with. That includes "a lighter (which some take to be a reference to his mob connections)". And it looked slightly odd sitting there as a first mention. Clearly this made more sense before the stuff about the Mafia was removed to the talk page. So whilst people look for more accurate citings and so on, would it not be sensible to add a one-sentence reference to the fact that rumours have existed for a long time? Telsa 13:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, incidentally, a possible source had I only known the article wanted one: the BBC just made a programme called Sinatra: Dark Star which was looking at the question. http://www.c21media.net/news/detail.asp?area=1&article=25838 has some blurb on the programme; http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,1543175,00.html is a review which mentions some of the claims (and who said what) from the programme. The article mentions big overseas sales, so it's bound to show up on someone else's screen soon. Telsa 13:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

How do you move this article or the Organized Crime part of it to the talk section? Aucociscokid


 * Done. -- Viajero | Talk 10:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Organized crime


Sinatra has been frequently linked to members of the Mafia and it has long been rumored that his career was aided behind the scenes by organized crime.

One of his uncles, Babe Gavarante, was a member of a Bergen County armed gang connected to the organization of Willie Moretti. Gavarante was convicted of murder in 1921 in connection with an armed robbery in which he had driven the get-away car. Sinatra was also allegedly personally linked to Willie Moretti, his first wife Nancy Barbato was a cousin of one of his senior henchmen and he sang at his daughter's wedding in 1948. According to testimony from Moretti, Sinatra received help from him in arranging performances in return for kick-backs.

He had associations with and did favours for Charles Fischetti, a notorious Chicago mobster dating back to 1946 according to the FBI. Sinatra was also friends with Charles's brother Joseph who ran the Fontainebleau Hotel complex in Miami, who arranged work for him and introduced him to Charles Luciano in Havana. After Luciano's deportation to Italy, Sinatra visited him at least twice, singing at a 1946 Christmas Party and gifting the famed mobster with a gold cigarette case engraved "To my dear pal Charlie, from his friend Frank" the next year. These visits were widely reported by the media and used as further evidence of Sinatra's ties to the mob, haunting him for the rest of his life. Among the allegations were the $2 million dollars that Sinatra gave Luciano. As Joseph "Doc" Stacher later recalled of the Havana meeting, "The Italians among us were all very proud of Frank. They always told me they had spent a lot of money helping him in his career ever since he was in Tommy Dorsey&#8217;s band. Lucky Luciano was very fond of Frank&#8217;s singing. Frankie flew into Havana with the Fischettis, with whom he was very friendly, but of course, our meeting had nothing to do with hearing him croon&#8230;Everyone brought envelopes of money for Luciano &#8230;But more important, they came to pay allegiance to him." The "Havana" allegations - while the basis of rumors for Sinatra's mob ties - have never been proved, and Luciano himself denied there was any criminal association in his autobiography.

Sinatra had a strong friendship with Sam Giancana who always wore a sapphire friendship ring given to him by Sinatra, and who ordered the killing of 200 people. A number of alleged incidents have been noted where people who angered Sinatra have been threatend by Giancana's mob. Comedian Jackie Mason has alleged that after mocking Sinatra in his routine, he received threats and his hotel room was shot up in his presence. After he continued he received death threats and was roughed up and his nose was broken

J. Edgar Hoover apparently suspected Sinatra over the years, and Sinatra's file at the FBI ended up at 2,403 pages, detailing allegations of extortion against Ronald Alpert for $100,000.00. Sinatra publicly rejected these accusations many times, and was never charged with any crimes in connection with them.

The character Johnny Fontane in the book and movie The Godfather is widely viewed as having been inspired by Frank Sinatra and his alleged connections. Indeed, Sinatra was furious with Godfather author Mario Puzo over the Fontane character and reportedly confronted Puzo in public with profane threats.

Given Westbrook Pegler's, in whose Hearst newspapers column these allegations re: Sinatra being Luciano's bagman originated, reputation for libelousness; mental instability; and extreme antipathy toward the subject about whom he was writing, it should be deleted. Aucociscokid

In 1947, a Hearst newspaper columnist reported that Sinatra had flown to Havana to join organized crime figures in a celebration for deported organized crime figure Charles "Lucky" Luciano. [1] Intimations that Sinatra might be involved with the Mafia would haunt him the rest of his career. Years later allegations would surface that in this incident, Sinatra had smuggled in several millions of dollars to Luciano.


 * Because after investigation, the Casino Control Commission obviously found insufficient evidence to charge Sinatra in the incident mention of it should be deleted. Likewise for Commissioner Jacobsen's comments which were not made in the context of any official proceeding, but merely represent his unofficial opinion. Aucociscokid

Actually it was not his unofficial opinion, It was a statement he made (Official) to the press that was published not only in the Press of Atlantic City newspaper but in other news outlets including the New York Times, ABC and CBS and NBC television news. This was also a very serious incident in Sinatra's life and should be included, So I ask again nicely please don't delete this. Misterrick 06:48, 27 August 2005 (UTC).


 * This is still Commissioner Jacobsen's OPINION. OPINIONS are POV & the entries on this site are supposed to be NPOV. Commissioner Jacobsen's comment was not an official finding of the commission, nor was it arrived at after hearing and weighing testimony from witness under oath whom FAS was afforded of the opportunity of cross-examining as to his "obnoxiousness" or the manifestations of the "bloatednss of his ego."

On December 1, 1983 while playing Blackjack at the Golden Nugget Casino in Atlantic City Sinatra and fellow ratpacker Dean Martin had intimidated the Blackjack dealer and several casino employees into breaking New Jersey casino laws by making the dealer deal the cards by hand instead of by a shoe which is required by law. Although Sinatra and Martin were implicated as the direct cause of the violation neither were fined by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission, The Golden Nugget on the other hand received a $25,000.00 fine and four employees including the dealer, a supervisor and pit boss were suspended from their jobs without pay. New Jersey Casino Control Commissioner Joel Jacobsen called Sinatra "an obnoxious bully" with a "bloated ego." This statement angered Sinatra who vowed never to play in Atlantic City ever again, However this threat was short lived because a year later Sinatra returned to Atlantic City performing at Bally's.

On December 1, 1983 while playing Blackjack at the Golden Nugget Casino in Atlantic City Sinatra and fellow ratpacker Dean Martin had intimidated the Blackjack dealer and several casino employees into breaking New Jersey casino laws by making the dealer deal the cards by hand instead of by a shoe which is required by law. of the violaAlthough Sinatra and Martin were implicated as the direct cause tion neither were fined by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission, The Golden Nugget on the other hand received a $25,000.00 fine and four employees including the dealer, a supervisor and pit boss were suspended from their jobs without pay. New Jersey Casino Control Commissioner Joel Jacobsen called Sinatra "an obnoxious bully" with a "bloated ego." This statement angered Sinatra who vowed never to play in Atlantic City again, However this threat was short lived because a year later Sinatra returned to Atlantic City performing at Bally's.


 * <> There is no source for this statement. It is not contained in what is cited as the source, an article from the STAR-LEDGER. It is unclear what, if anything, the CCCs own investigation regarding the incident revealed. Also cf. Misterrick's, the presumed author of the addition comments from the Revision History <> which to me at least reveal a strong anti-Sinatra bias which, I believe, are clouding his objectivity. There is also no evidence that FAS ever broke the law with regard to this incident or ever. Aucociscokid


 * Because the Westchester Premiere Theater photo is merely "guilt by association" which is a practice we as a society have found to be repugnation and also leads to false conclusions (see Sen. Joseph P. McCarthy's use of it in the 50s), the picture itself as well as any mention of it should be deleted Aucociscokid

Further discussion of Sinatra's possible mob ties ensued in 1981 when he applied to regain his Nevada casino license. At the Nevada Gaming Control Board hearings, a 1976 photograph was revealed that showed Sinatra with a number of underworld figures backstage at a theatre in Tarrytown, New York. Sinatra denied that he had invited them there, and his casino license was reinstated. 

Further discussion of Sinatra's possible mob ties ensued in 1981 when at Nevada Gaming Control Board hearings, a 1976 photograph was revealed that showed Sinatra with a number of underworld figures backstage at a theatre in Tarrytown, New York. Sinatra denied that he had invited them there. In general, Sinatra strongly maintained throughout his career that he was not part of organized crime. Former FBI agents and other researchers have come to no consensus on the matter, and it is quite important to note that Sinatra was never charged with any crimes in connection with any of these incidents or relationships.


 * You can't wish away cited incidents involving governmental or official bodies as though they didn't happen. He did have his casino license suspended for 18 years ... The Sinatra-supporter view is now well represented in the article too.  If you're a Sinatra fan, I suggest you devote your efforts to improving the treatment of his music.  I added a lot in that area, but there is still a lot more that could be said.   Wasted Time R 17:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I am not wishing away the incidents involving governmental bodies. An allegation which is all these are is not fact. ONLY those of which Sinatra was found GUILTY after he being afforded his constitutional protections of being confronted w/the witnesses against him and having subjcted them to cross-examination which would then rise at least to the level of legal fact should be included. Otherwise they're just innuendo and should not be repeated least of all here because the Wikipedia is striving to be impartial. + I have and am conforming to the Wikipedia's rules re: deletions while the reverse is not necessarily trueAucociscokid


 * I know of no other WP articles in which your guideline applies. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Michael Jackson, Maurice Stans, O.J. Simpson, Caspar Weinberger, and many people's articles discuss charges or accusations or investigations against them of which they were eventually found innocent or no formal charges were ever filed.  I agree that retroactive accusations that have only been raised in certain press or book accounts can be omitted, such as the Havana money laundering stuff.  But events related to his casino license loss/reinstatement, for example, have to be covered.    Wasted Time R 18:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It is my understanding that Wikipedia articles are to be NPOV

<>

The most of the allegations surrounding FASs involvement with organized crime unless have risen to the necessary standard of proof ("beyond a reasonable doubt"; "by preponderance of the the credible evidence"; etc. given the court & nature of the action)required court of competent jurisdiction to pass judgment represent "one side(s)" - the state's - unfounded beliefs; they are hearsay. They are worst than heresay in that courts or quasi-courts have passed judgement on most and found the evidence supporting them to be lacking so that now they are not only hearsay but libelous and slanderous. Including them, especially in the manner in which they are, "state(s), impl(ies), or insinate(s)" that that side is correct.

The exception to this are Ms. (Cristina) Sinatra's which because of her degree of relationship to the subject can be assumed to be factual: what's known in the law as "statement against interest" and is an exception to the hearsay rule.

It was I myself and as the record will bear out whom suggested using her as a source in the 1st place.

As this article is the one being so addressed, I am unconcerned with the others you cite except to say that because something is written, done, or said somewhere or someplace else does not make it factual or so- something to keep in mind as many of the sources cited are in the deleted material are newspapers; there never was a President Dewey, the Chicgo TRIBs report to that effect to the contrary notwithstanding.

I respectfully request you refrain from restoring my moving of the questionable material to this section, "The Talk Page," which again is not only in accordance w/the site's rule, but is mentioned above until the editors have been afforded the opportunity to reviewit and reach a consensus as to its inclusion.

Aucociscokid


 * The previous consensus was that cites were needed. I added cites, and yanked material that lacked them.  But since it's hard to understand your writing (English is obviously not your native language, which is ok), and since you will discredit any source that doesn't agree with your views (except Tina Sinatra!?), I don't think any consensus involving you is going to take place.  Personally, I don't care enough about this subject to wage an edit battle over it, so you win.  Wasted Time R 19:28, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * English is not only my native language, but I believe must be written with some specificity, especially in a case such at the one at hand where not only a person's imagine is being tarnished but an icon's with all that that implies; not only the rewards but the work it took to earn them which is the reason most of us don't want to be one. Most of the sources you cite are news reports of one sort or another which are well known for more often reporting innuendo rather than facts. Another way of putting is: Just 'cause its in a newspaper or on the TV, don't make it a fact.

+ I can't understand this morbid fascination with slandering people - celebrities especially and more specifically Frank Sinatra.

To the degree there are things he's done that he's less than proud, they abound. Many of which he's the 1st to confess to himself as he's done in the case of LCN. Although it's a bad analogy: Why "frame" the guilty? Why tarnish his reputation w/false allegations of such associations when he's already admitted to the true state of affairs himself?

He's already hoisted himself with his own petard. What do you want to do, fire a cap pistol at him, too?

He knew mobsters. Okay? He wasn't a member of "The Commission" as he is sometimes portrayed. A Sinatra fan I am, although some over at the Sinatra Family Album would give us "gas" on that point. The bigger fan I am is that of not necessarily the truth, but rather, objectivity.Aucociscokid

Frank Sinatra was a thug and he did everything in his power to get what he wanted including breaking the law in the casino but the New Jersey State Police and New Jersey Casino Control Commission were such pussies that they were actually afraid of him. This paragraph should stand. If you want to remove the comments made by the Casino commissioner that's fine but leave the rest in. Misterrick 06:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC).

Does anyone apart from Aucociscokid disagree with returning the section on Organised Crime to the main article? I've added a link to the bbc as a citation - I appreciate that this isn't a peer reviewed source, but I think it's a fair citation to to the fact that there has been discussion of possible Mob involvement. The reason I'm interested in this is because it provides background to the Johnny Fontaine character in the Godfather, and because people may want to know the supposed basis for the Mafia allegations - I visited the page to find out why the allegations exist, I would have preferred to see the section in the main article rather than having to trawl through the talk section... --198.45.26.20 13:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a democracy. If 10 people says X should be in, but the 1 who doesn't is the only one who's willing to edit war about it, the 1 wins and X stays out.   Wasted Time R 18:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Reading the article, I am left with two impressions: One, it is very good, and two, (in the sense that this is an encyclopedia) the balance is now about right about Sinatra's (casual acquaintance / friendship / connection / involvement - perm any 2 from 4) with organized crime figures. The article concentrates in the main on his career, but does not whitewash him or try to portray this complex man exclusively as a saint. Everybody knows the stories, and many (including myself) would admit that this 'undercurrent' or possible 'darker side' to Frank's celebrity is actually a part of his appeal. Perhaps this actually worked the other way too, and encouraged crime figures to seek to associate themselves and be 'caught' in the same picture / club etc. with Sinatra. I think that Frank's alleged 'contacts' (both good and bad) would form the subject of a very interesting article in its own right. I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to write it myself, and I don't want to find my wife's head on the pillow next to me unless the rest of her is still attached to it, but I would really enjoy reading it :-). ChrisRed 22:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well said
I put together the body of the material on Sinatra alleged mob ties. As I wrote above, every discussion of Sinatra - biography, TV etc. - discusses this issue and wikipeida must note the discussions.

Kudos to Wasted Time R for sourcing the material. The argument against including the now sourced info seems to be allong the lines of "he was never convicted". OJ Simpson was never convicted - should his article skip from sport to acting to. . . a strange widower? What nonsence! What trash! Who the hell loves this dead man so much that they thing there should be a little bit of biography where no mention is made of suspisions that he was linked to the mafia! Show your face Frank Simatra Jr!

jucifer 20:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Suggested Article Theme/Focus
From a review of Anthony Summer's book, THE LIFE, an FAS, by Jonathan Schwartz that appeared in the May 18, 2005, edition of the New York OBSERVER:

"I believe, based on a lifetime of consideration, that Frank Sinatra was the greatest interpretive musician this country has ever produced. By that I mean he took the music and words of composers and lyricists, passed them through his own emotions, intellect and life blood, and distributed them to grateful recipients all over the world for 60 years. His singing was, for the most part, virtuosic. It was also intimate, honest and accessible, even to those who spoke no English. His recordings of more than 1,300 songs, collected in a towering stack of albums and a cornucopia of repackagings from dozens of countries as well as the United States, will stand forever as a living archive of excellence unsurpassed in its field and beloved by plumbers and dentists, entrepreneurs and violinists, octogenarians and grandchildren, astronauts and politicians, and inhabitants of tiny huts made of twigs.

Any book called Sinatra: The Life would be well advised, therefore, to follow the music. Without it, there are no girls, gangsters or Presidents, no private jets, bowls of caviar, sprawling mansions or astronomical phone bills. There are no movies to star in, private tables in fabled restaurants, Congressional hearings or stretch limousines; no Gregory Peck, no Dean Martin, no Liz Smith. And, to be sure, no Ava Gardner." Aucociscokid


 * So you are suggesting that the 'Recorded Legacy' material should be integrated into the mainline article?  Wasted Time R 19:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Singles
The main discography is pretty impressive, but there is no mention of the numerous singles Sinatra released in his career, many of which are well recognised even today and should be documented (Witchcraft, I've Got The World On A String, to name a few, the latter of which deserves a place in the narrative as some allege it saved his career).

I propose therefore a new section entitled "Notable Columbia Singles" or something to that effect. Cheers, Cdyson37 | (Talk) 17:14, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Go for it, as well as adding items to the narrative.  Wasted Time R 18:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, after a month of no one doing it, I created a whole new entry called Frank Sinatra discography that includes his singles. Williamnilly 22:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks good. Note that there is also a List of songs recorded by Frank Sinatra article that was started some time ago.  I think that list and article is totally worthless, but looking at the blue links in it may tell you which songs in your singles list have articles that you can link to.   Wasted Time R 22:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow, that really does look worthless. At least, right now. A more complete list would be impressive. I can see the reason for it, since his career has spanned five decades and he's recorded over 600 songs. It would be great to see EVERY song he's ever recorded. I might work on that too! Williamnilly 17:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Genre listed in Album Articles
Hi. I'm planning to use write articles on the individual Sinatra albums, following the format I have done with Ella Fitzgerald. Would anyone object if I ocassionally described him as a Jazz Singer, rather than the epithet 'Traditional Pop'?


 * No objection ... these labels are semi-useless anyway. A lot of great artists find gaps in between and across genres, rendering attempts to pigeonhole them into a particular genre rather pointless.   Wasted Time R 00:49, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it would be helpful. As the article now stands, it makes little or no mention of the styles he worked in. He could have been a Tuvan throat singer for all you can tell from this. Sylvain1972 15:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Frank's Last Screen Appearance
Managed to sort out the confusion about the various 'Young at Hearts'. This (IMDb) was Frank's last screen appearance, (Shot 16 Nov 1994 in Toronto). Although he only says three words ("Joey sent me"), it's a belting little film, with lots of Frank running right through it. Get on to CBS TV to put it out on DVD !. ChrisRed 00:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC) (Reference to this - and others - since deleted without discussion by a pedant who believes full-length 'TV Movies' aren't 'Movies'.  I couldn't be arsed putting it back).

Organised Crime
I forgot about this article. I looked into it and it appears that the person that kept deleting the organised crime section of the article is a member of a "sinatra family board" by the name of zaphobd of Marina Del Rey, who asked people to edit this article to keep it in line with their POV. (here)

I am going to put the sourced section above back into the article - entitling it "Allegations of mob ties".

As I have said before - these allegations are a major part of the life of frank Sinatra, some of it is undisputed even by his family, and in any bio of the man they need to be addressed.

Oh by the way you wanna know how I found out about this! I saw the Autosiskid (or whatever) had only ever edited two articles. This one (loads) and Peaks Island. So I did this search here, and found that page listed above! I am so proud of this - I should become a detective. jucifer 01:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Auto(whateverhisnmaeis) also edits from this IP adress: 4.18.42.243 jucifer 01:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * How should we best revert most of the edits by User:Aucocisco kid? And provide the correct ciataions, eg, the Kelley bio etc?. Gareth E Kegg 16:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Pop or Jazz
Many people now consider Sinatra to be a jazz singer (esp in his later years) although its true he started as more of a crooner.--Light current 13:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Crooner and jazz can be the smae things, but Sinatra was neither. Tony Bennett can explain the "Crosby Style" that they all followed;  I don't like saying I'm a jazz singer or a pop singer; I don't like categories. I just like to sing, and I like Bing for that reason. Country, pop, classical, jazz, whatever -- if he liked the melody, he did it. (from an interview by George Varga, San Diego Union-Tribune, June 19, 1997) --Sicamous 20:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unusual size of Sinatra's endowment.
Can anyone remember the title of the memoir by Frank's bodyguard in which it was revealed that Sinatra wore a harness to keep his unusually large penis from distracting and alarming people? I know I read it, but I can't remember the title or the guy's name. --62.255.236.65 01:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added a citation, but more detail would be good. --62.255.236.65 01:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I am just responding to your question above. The title of the memoir was "Mr.S, The Last Word On Frank Sinatra" and it was written by Frank Sinatra's Valet, George Jacobs, not his bodyguard Jilly Rizzo. It was also written by William Stadiem

Mr.S, 5th December, 2006

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:62.255.236.65"

Weasel Words Tag
Here goes another useless wikipedia argument! Why was the tag added? Gareth E Kegg 17:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you say "useless". The tag was added because the article starts with two sentences like these:
 * who is considered by many to have been the finest male popular song vocalist of all time
 * many critics place him alongside artists such as Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley and The Beatles as one of the most important popular and influential music figures of the 20th century


 * Please, take a look at avoid weasel words. --Gennaro Prota 23:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think one of the problems with Wikipedia, is that, in its admirable search for neutrality, stock sentences such as the one you list above, used to introduce a subject, are discounted. The opening paragraphs for Ludwig van Beethoven and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart are shockingly weasaly from this perspective, yet are written indisputeably. Gareth E Kegg 01:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that I just came here to look at this article out of curiousity, but seeing that Weasel Words tag at the top makes me want to take this article less seriously. - Don't fear the   Reaper  03:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't let it deceive you :) The template we currently have insists on the fact that weasel words compromise the article's neutrality. In fact, that's IMHO not always the case. This article is not (overall) biased, it just begins with meaningless sentences. I would have liked the template to just tell that the article has weasel words, not that for, that reason, neutrality is compromised. --Gennaro Prota 04:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it would be nice if the template was a little nicer looking. Or maybe if we could rewrite the parts that are contested, that way the tag could be removed?  That giant exclamation point is a bit of a shock like: 'Warning this page is a false glowing tribute to Frank Sinatra.  Do not take seriously'.  Don't fear the    Reaper  04:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I finally realized that what I called "weasel words" were actually "peacock terms" in wikipedia jargon (BTW, why "words" in one case and "terms" in the other - shouldn't we make the two names consistent?). Thus I created a new template and used it in this page (frankly, to me weasel words and peacock terms are very close relatives; we could even unify the style guide pages and the templates: basically they both reduce to "words that say nothing" ;)) --Gennaro Prota 18:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr Prota, I have read and re-read the introduction to the Sinatra article, and I still consider that none of the 'peacock terms' are used without foundation. My earlier comment in this discussion was ignored, so I refer you to it again. For a reader unfamiliar with 20th Century popular music, viewing Sinatra as one starlet amongst many would be a fallacy. Gareth E Kegg 19:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Your earlier comment was not ignored. The point is that words like those used here could be used for Aretha Franklin, for Louis Armstrong, for Luciano Pavarotti, for Edit Piaf, Mina (where I have removed them), for Ennio Morricone, Toscanini, Verdi and God knows who else. No matter if they are used "with foundation" or not. Our guidelines say *avoid* peacock terms, not "be sure they are used with a foundation" (whatever that means). --Gennaro Prota 01:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Immediately after writing the reply above, I stumbled upon Nunh-huh's modification and his edit summary. I think it doesn't even deserve a comment. Keep this article as you like. --Gennaro Prota 02:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The WP guidelines for weasels and peacocks suggest using factual items, such as "this guy was advisor to five kings" or "this team won three times more championships than any other team." But such factual items don't readily exist for Frank Sinatra.  He worked in an era in which record sales were not easily counted and not commensurate with later decades' artists' totals.  His prime occurred before the Grammy Awards were created.  There has never been a measurable yardstick for influence in popular music.  Nevertheless, the entire Recorded legacy section does indeed try to give voluminous, specific backing evidence to support the claims made in the intro.  As such I think the intro's use of peacockery is valid and necessary in this case.   Wasted Time R 04:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Frank being the butt of "thin"-jokes
In a number of golden age cartoons, such as 1946's Book Revue (dir. Robert Clampett, Warner) and 1948's Little 'Tinker (dir. Tex Avery, MGM), Sinatra is portrayed as sickly thin (breathing masks, disappearing behind microphone stand, etc). Upon googling I also see that Bob Hope made jokes to this effect. Was this a common joke about Sinatra at the time? If so, should it be included in the article? Mikkel 01:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

LET'S GET THE DATE STRAIGHT

"Sinatra was an ardent supporter of the Democrat Party, until 1968," a line in the text says. I question and dispute this. Sinatra had his falling out with the Kennedy's in 1961, the result of JFK visiting the Bing Crosby home in California, not Sinatra's home, at Sinatra's invitation. Sinatra, of course, demolished his backyard heliport with an axe, in a fit of rage, upon learning of this rebuff. The heliport had been constructed in anticipation of a visit from the president.

It is important to accurately note the year of the Sinatra - Democrat Party fallout out, 1961, because it happened BEFORE JFK was assassinated, not five years after. Sinatra had mob connections. The attorney for mob boss Sam Traficante came forward in the 90's and stated that it was Traficante who gave the order to have Kennedy "hit." He stated that the primary target was actually to remove Robert Kennedy as Attorney General, more than hit JFK. Robert Kennedy, incredibly, was prosecuting and getting prison sentences for mob and union figures, such as Jimmy Hoffa - the very people who put the Kennedy's over the top in the 1960 election, and into the White House. Not playing ball with the powerful people who put them in office proved to be a fatal miscalculation on the part of he who ascended the throne.

Sinatra, with mob connections and a perceived grudge / vendetta against the Kennedy's, figures to at least been privvy to the plans, maybe even part of the plans, to hit Kennedy. If the aforementioned mob boss who "gave the order" actually did give the order to hit Kennedy, as publicly stated by his attorney, was it at his own behest (doubtful), or did someone based in Hollywood with a vendetta against the Kennedy's, bring it up for consideration?

I can recall Frank saying that he was a small child, 'so skinny my eyes were single file' on his Sands monologue, but never thin as a runing joke per se. Had Franks health and career problems started by the time of the Hope broadcast? Gareth E Kegg 01:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of the references I can find to him being thin are 1945-1950. Seems that that was when Sinatra's popularity was declining and he had yet to reinvent himself as a movie star. Mikkel 12:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Bing Crosby joked about Frank's thin figure as well, during the 1940s. Frank in turn joked about Crosby's paunch and receding hairline.

Children at bedside when Frank died?
The article says at the end of the family section that Barbara Blakeley Marx didn't not call the children near the end "and the children missed the opportunity to be at their father's bedside when he died." Then, "Sinatra's last words were (according to his daughter Nancy Sinatra, as told to Variety senior columnist, Army Archerd): "I'm losing."" I'm just curious myself, and it may be confusing to other readers. Elsprucemoose 02:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
With war between Big Jock Knew and a few so-called "vandalizers", there's evidence that the last part of an article is TOTALLY DELETED!! External links, samples, etc. No offense, Big Jock Knew, but I believe that you overlooked an error. I will revert and clean up the damages either caused by 168.216.144.195 or 168.216.221.23. I promise and am serious! —Gh87 06:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: Wait a minute, 168.216.221.23 was NOT vandalizing! This user tried to clean-up 168.216.144.195's vandalizing deeds, and it it evident that 168.216.144.195 started this by doing the whole "image_caption" imitation and deleted the most important part of an article. I check the contributions, and look at a lot of comparisons. Big Jock Knew, if you're reading this, believe me. I am probably on 168.216.221.23's side of fighting against the other. —Gh87 06:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC) According the the edit history at 08:40 8 August 2006 a user called PetersPiper vandalized the page. I have just fixed this. Ethan Shay 14:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Query, though as sure to not what
I'm sure as to that I heard Frank Sinatra once appeared on Goober-Kell's Amusement Hour in the 60's but can't life for the find of me damn the tape. Anyone who could help would be appreciated..? [19:35, 6 May 2006 88.109.183.245]


 * He *was* on it! Very young. So, you're right there but it was on one of the lost editions from '65, I believe along with Mitch Thomas and Denise Carrell. Ed Jefferson's book on American 60's music has a chapter that is almost completely dedicated to lost moments such as this, and so has extensive informaterial. 88.109.143.156

Pitch perfect
Isn't Frank Sinatra "pitch perfect", a really rare musical talent where a singer hits all notes in his range spot-on? Is this at all true, or just a rumor?-akshayaj  [21:02, 14 June 2006 64.73.43.226]

answered my own question; there's a link at the very bottom called "people with absolute pitch", though the talent isn't as rare as I thought (65 ppl on the list). maybe there should be some reference in the article itself? -akshayaj

Yes, it should be mentioned. - Deathrocker 12:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Perfect/absloute pitch is the ability to hear and identify a note without any other musical support. It has little to do with hitting notes spot on. Apparently all humans can be born with the ability, but because it's not essential for survival in today's world, many lose the ability. Rikstar 22:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Influence over Nancy Reagan & the Reagan Presidency
Can anyone comment on reports that during the waning years of the Reagan Administration, when the president was already suffering the debilitating effects of his degenerative disease, Nancy Reagan often determined policy, turning to such sources as Frank Sinatra and spiritualists (fortune tellers) for advice?

--Philopedia 09:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Sinatra's relationship with the Reagans has been well documented by Kitty Kelley, and perhaps we should look to creating a section of the article on Frank's political views? At one stage, Frank was a near communist and staunch democrat, and hated Reagan, but towards the end it was a very different matter. With Nancy, I can't think who was more overawed...A B movie actress at Ol'Blue Eyes, or An aging singer at the First Lady? Gareth E Kegg 12:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Last Will and Testament of Frank Sinatra
We wish to advise everyone that we (the Living Trust Network) have a copy of Frank Sinatra's Last Will and Testament posted on our website, which we believe is of interest to anyone seeking information about the life of Frank Sinatra. We have also discussed our desire to post a link to Frank Sinatra's Last Will and Testament with Wikipedia administrators [See User talk:Livingtrust], either under "references" or "external links." Last Will and Testament of Frank Sinatra. Wikipedia does not object to the link but has requested that we not put the link up ourselves since we are a commercial website. Instead, it has requested that we make it known that the Last Will and Testament is available, and anyone who wishes to add the link to the "reference" section or the "external links" section may do so. So, we solicite your help in adding the link set forth above. Thanks. Livingtrust 03:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I have posted the link in the external links section. --Ethan Shay 14:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Most Hated
During World War II, Sinatra was known as the "most hated man." But this only referred to being hated by other males. This was due to his popularity with women and also to his military status. Soldiers and sailors would stand outside theaters and throw eggs and tomatoes at the billboard images of him. He tried to compensate for his absence from the military during the war by subsequently accepting many movie roles that would allow him to appear in a military uniform.Lestrade 19:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Emulation
When Lee Harvey Oswald left the theater after seeing Manchurian Candidate, did he have any new thoughts in his head? Were those thoughts reinforced by having seen Suddenly on television the preceding Sunday afternoon? Was this another example of the pernicious effect of Hollywood?Lestrade 19:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Mug Shot
I, for one, do not think this is an appropriate photo to illustrate the article on FS. Orbicle 08:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't either. The problem is, of course trying to find a public domain image of Frankie for illustration purposes. Gareth E Kegg 09:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Love of cabbage?
In the genre section while discussing his style of music the article currently says: "He loved Cabbage alot." Is this a bit of vandalism or a poorly written sentence about a jazz term?--BHC 04:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a reference to cash money, but... Trekphiler 15:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Sinatra, Frank - Why do we as baby boomers love him?
Frank Sinatra - I just read his bio info on Wikipedia - What a wonderful history ...

My husband and I are big fans now ... and I'm interested - why would a 48-yr old and her 50-yr old husband love the sound and aura of Frank so much now. My husband and I don't recall ever hearing him before 10 years ago (except to say "turn it off")

- What is it about Frank? The rat pack history is interesting, but his history is sketchy ... Why does the sound of Frank's voice endure and resonate so purely for us as 48/50 yrs old new Frank lovers and for 87-year-old dad?

Are we just ready to fill our pool room with stupid memorabilia? - The rat pack was cool Right? --- they were good friends? So it seems ...

BUT WHY DOES THE SOUND OF FRANK'S VOICE ENDURE AND RESONATE SO PURELY FOR US? FOR US AS COUPLE⅔? FOR US AT THE HOLIDAYS? FOR MY 87-YEAR-OLD DAD?

Why would 4 people - ok after a few glasses of wine last fall - (hubby, his sister and her 48-yr-old-hubby) blare 45 minutes of Frank's music to his CD West on Route 80 after an evening in the Ironbound section of Newark?

What is it about Frank?

What is it about Frank?

Please tell me (us) ...

Jan & Jim closingprtner@aol.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.38.136.16 (talk • contribs).

The Voice
Who gave him the apellation? Kwizatz Hederach 16:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Bel Canto is the only deeply felt vocal style?
The following sentence is, I think, just a subjective opinion:  And, more importantly, he might be said to have brought the Crosby tradition to artistic completion, taking it to levels of intensity and depth of feeling that, because of the displacement of the Crosby-Sinatra tradition by rock and roll and subsequent genres, are unlikely to be achieved again.

C'mon. It's true that rock and roll et al. have displaced the Crosby-Sinatra tradition, but by any informed standard, music hasn't been deprived of intense, deep feelings. I'm no fan, but listen to some early U2 and explain why Sinatra's voice is more intense and deeply felt.

So: if this page is anybody's baby, I recommend you delete that sentence. Figureground 00:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Can someone make an easy albums section here?
Can somebody please make a section that lists all of Sinatras albums in one easy to find paragraph?....I mean this page has a section for his albums....but when you click it.....It lists a few and not all of them.....The rest of his albums are spread out all over the page....and I dont even think this page lists all his albums anyway (I could be wrong about that part though)......So can someone have one album section that lists all his albums?.....ARYAN818 21:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Formatting
I have made a bunch of edits to bring this in line with the Manual of Style, which is the style followed here at Wikipedia, including: Also, I have converted many of the "would"s into the simple past tense. The past tense is generally preferred for describing events that occurred in the past because it is more easily understood, especially by the many people who do not speak English as a first language who read Wikipedia. Ground Zero | t 19:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) section headings use "sentence case', not "title case", e.g., "Important section heading", not "Important Section Heading"
 * 2) dates follow the format: "29 December 2006" or "December 29, 2006", and not "December 29th 2006" or "Dec. 29, 2006", or "Decmber of 2006" -- see WP:DATE
 * 3) album titles, movie names and magazine titles are italicised. Song titles go in "double quotation marks".

Low E Flat
It says that Sinatra voice could hit a low E flat, and that he hits it in Ol man river. Now, low E flat is very, very low, lower than most operas bass singer can go. Also, in the 1964 version of the song he goes low, but not that low. --Sicamous 20:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone
I tried to tone down the hyperbole in the introduction. It presented as fact that Sinatra is considered (by whom?) one of the finest male vocalists of all times (did the person who pretended this check the centuries of vocalists before, worldwide?). This sounds to me like typical editorializing with a parochial point of view. More appropriate would be:
 * Sinatra is often considered, in the United States, to be one of the finest American vocalists ''of the 20th century'.

Seriously, I strongly doubt that most people in China (1 billion) have heard who Sinatra is. In India (also 1 billion), I bet he'd be beaten in popularity by some Bollywood star. Or Michael Jackson. David.Monniaux 16:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought Freddie Mercury was the finest male vocalist of all times (or something like that)?

I can support the following:


 * Sinatra is often considered, to be one of the finest American vocalists of the 20th century.

We shouldn't limit it to "in the United States" because Sinatra has a world-wide reputation as an American vocalist. He is popular in English-speaking countries (Canada, UK, Australia) and in other countries with an appeciation for American popular music (France, Japan, Italy). --SeanO 16:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You shouldn't include it AT ALL unless there's a citation. "Is considered to be the best" is quintessential weasel-word material. Alvis 04:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View
Some of this article does not come across as being from a neutral point of view. I took out this line 'Sinatra's breath control and vocal phrasing are the stuff of legend'. It's a lay opinion not a fact. Also using the word 'exceptional' to describe his vocal range is misleading, the word suggests no-one has a similar or better range which is clearly incorrect.

'Sinatra could hold notes for in excess of 12 bars' should also be clarified or removed. '12 bars' is not a defined amount of time, it depends on the tempo of the piece. It could easily be challenged that he could not hold for 12 bars of a very slow piece. For instance a piece at only 32 Bpm would make 12 bars 1 minute 30 seconds long.

February 22, 2007 edits
A lot of info was added. Much of it seems to be unsourced. Some broke up previously cited material. Request another editor's review. Ronbo76 21:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

why does the Titale Image say POOP in capslock, I mean WTF?

Come Fly With Me — released in 1958, or 1957?
Both this and the Come Fly With Me page cite 1958 as the year of the album's release. Everywhere else on the Web that I can find cites 1957 — although there are unusual inconsistencies. For instance, the All Music Guide's review doesn't list a year at all, except in the main discography list, which lists it under 1957; Amazon suggests it was released October 1, 1957, which can't be correct, since recording is reported to have started that day.

Can anyone find appropriate citation one way or the other? livefastdieold 08:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The album entered the Billboard album chart on January 25, 1958. This would suggest that it was released in the last week of 1957 or the first week of 1958.

Too many greatest roles
How many movies are we to believe Sinatra was at his finest in? Article REEKS of non-NPOV shit like this: Alvis 03:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Here, Sinatra gave one of his finest acting performances, playing the disturbed Major Bennett Marco

In 1957 Sinatra gave one of his finest on-screen performances in The Joker Is Wild,

here, in the lead-role as reformed heroin addict Frankie Machine, Sinatra gave arguably his best and most widely acclaimed performance
 * I'm not sure it's that bad, I mean, Sinatra was a mediocre actor, so saying it was one of his finest performances is not saying much. 75.68.6.81 15:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Frank was mediocre? He won an Oscar in 1954 you git!

Yes, but his performance in "From Here to Eternity" was a little over the top. I think he won the award firstly because he played an alcoholic (something that was pretty daring at the time) and because he was acting opposite such stalwarts as Montgomery Clift, Burt Lancaster, Deborah Kerr, etc. (DaveyJones1968 12:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Vandalism
I am removing a line in the early biography because apparently, whatever the name of the group Sinatra was involved with for an early talent show, it's been changed to "Lets all edit Wikipedia" If you know the right name, please enter it. --le petite robot 19:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice Biography @ Microsoft.com !
http://shopformusic.microsoft.com/Shop/Artist.asp?locale=409&p_id=P+++++3150&name=Frank+Sinatra --Root Beers 22:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Arrest?
I found this mugshot of ol blue eyes.


 * http://www.biogs.com/famous/sinatrafrank.html --Root Beers 22:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Article's Main Picture
Frank Sinatra was most active and at the height of his career in the 1950s and 1960s. Who here agrees that his main picture should be one from this time? If we are going to show what many would agree to be the Rolls Royce of singing, why not show one in top condition?
 * The most important consideration is that we use a free image as our first choice wherever possible. If a suitable free image from the 50s or 60s can be found, that would be great and I would be all for it.  However, the image from the Budokan is an acceptable image - it may not be as good as many other images, but the most important thing is that it is free.  The only other free image I can find that might be ok to use is Image:Frank Sinatra 1973.jpg.  It's not perfect but it's reasonable.  The Budokan image at least shows him performing, which is appropriate.  Rossrs 14:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed Rossrs. I did not consider that so lets hope a free image from this time could be found one day?

Thanks Andrew

Replaced the Main Picture, I think it looks pretty good now! --Shifty86 22:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Range?
Does anybody know exactly what Sinatra's vocal range was? I've heard anywhere from less than 1 tp 2 1/2, which I don't quite believe. Sherick 17:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Change to Lead
Can we discuss this edit? I think that such a claim in the first sentence of the lead section should be sourced; the contributor originally cited iTunes in an HTML comment, which I do not feel is a reliable source. He, however, has re-added the claim, and has not verified it. I have no wish to edit war, but I feel this should be removed until it can be cited. &mdash; Madman bum and angel (talk – desk) 06:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)