Talk:Frank Zappa

Musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader
Someone had turned "singer-songwriter, musician" into "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader", which was accepted by myself and by user. This is was reverted by user  per wp:UNDUE. I don't think there's anything undue about the phrase musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader. On the contrary, these attributes are overwhelmingly supported by the article. So I undid the undo. Other comments welcome. - DVdm (talk) 16:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the ping, please note (for anyone joining the discussion) that there is a huge section up above saying why bandleader belongs in the lead (thank you ).  Just ' i ' yaya  17:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Mnmn, the noted singer-songwriter Frank Zappa... I honestly feel that if we try to put him in in with like Lobo (musician) and Neil Diamond and Christopher Cross etc. we'd risk calling forth a nameless shapeless wrath that might consume the universe. I can't think of a more misleading way to characterize Zappa... Heh I'm imagining him onstage alone on a stool in a spotlight and strumming away at "Time In A Bottle"... oof. Yes sure this is an accurate image to put in the reader's mind... I suppose "Frank Zappa was a musician, composer, guitarist, and potato ricer (a kitchen implement used to process potatoes by forcing them through a sheet of small holes)" would be a little more misleading. Sorry, this just gave me the giggles.


 * My thought remains that "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" works fine, not broke, don't fix. (But if we've got the hood open anyway, I'd prefer "guitarist, composer, songwriter, bandleader" because he really was a virtuoso guitarist I think. However, it's fine either way, don't worry about it. (My thought process being: whatever "musician" might mean, we've already spun off songwriter, bandleader, and composer, so what's left is his instruments and singing I guess?. But didn't he have other people do a fair amount of the singing? Even when not he just wasn't noted for his singing but he was for his playing. But whatever.) Herostratus (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" Dr.bobbs (talk) 14:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


 * "Composer, guitarist, bandleader" would be more accurate. For starters, Zappa considered himself a composer first and foremost (says so in his autobiography).  He composed large symphonic works.  And rock music.  And jazz.  And a few other things.  But composition was central:  everything else was to support his composition habit.


 * Once you have "composer", songwriter is implicit in that. True, not all composers are songwriters, necessarily, but all songwriters are composers.


 * "Musician" is both over-general, and redundant. Could one possible be a composer, a guitarist, and a bandleader, (and a songwriter), and NOT be a "musician"?
 * 74.95.43.253 (talk) 01:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, afaic, we can leave the musician aside. I'll make the change and we can keep it. After possible further discussion here, we can revert. - DVdm (talk) 14:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * He was a composer first and foremost! 2A00:23C6:CC8B:9601:6176:3FA9:76CE:1C0C (talk) 06:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe tours can be improved?
I'm trying to figure out if there's a more comprehensive way to list the tours. I know that there are different ways of breaking them up, i.e. Spring 74 vs Summer/fall 74, etc. but i feel like doing something like calling all of 74 the "10th anniversary" tour is a bit misleading. Also, for the chart, Ed Mann was not around in 84. 230am.cowboy (talk) 15:33, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

1940–1965: Early life and career - mercury and prostate cancer
This section looks like it contains WP:OR by strongly implying that playing with mercury gave him cancer. Unless there's source that says that, the sentence about his cancer belongs in the section about his later life and death. Rhejhect (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I've just removed some more WP:OR about the radium pellets he was given as a child. this citation: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/causes-prevention/risk/radiation/nasopharyngeal-radium-fact-sheet is NOT about Frank Zappa. If the citation is not about the subject, it's original research. Rhejhect (talk) 10:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

phrasing, "uses conventions" versus "conventional"
@24.143.103.204, I asked you to please discuss your thoughts here before continuing to make changes. You're misunderstanding my point: Zappa did use existing conventions in unconventional ways. An artist can be unconventional in the way they use conventions. He wrote down his thoughts with (mostly) conventional music notation, for example.I am worried that your particular phraseology is overly narrow, and may impact the meaning of the article in a way that's neither neutral nor represented by sources. Remsense  留  07:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Subpage time?
This article is getting very long, especially for a featured article. It was just a hair under 11k words upon FAR in 2017, and is now over my personal pigheaded bright line of 12k where I put my foot down and say "I don't care what the article is about, it's obviously too long". It seems to me that a lot of the detail regarding his work is notable enough to be viable as subpages—cf. Beethoven's musical style, Beethoven's compositional method. Thoughts? Remsense 诉  20:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

YES! Finally! This article is way too long. It still has parts that are poorly written, inaccurate, repetitive and or overly verbose. It can be tightened up. There is still a lot of trivial and or unsourced information that should be removed. Trivial info can be moved to other articles or deleted entirely.24.143.118.36 (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * You've been doing a lot of work on it, do you have suggestions for what could be split out first? Remsense  诉  20:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean by "split out"? Do you mean making new articles?

One thing that definitely needs to go is just about any quote about Zappa's music from Robert Christgau. He clearly is highly biased and has little or no understanding of FZ's music. He is one of those people who is responsible for spreading a lot of false impressions. He described Bongo Fury as "sentimental", which may the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say about FZ's music. The amount of sentimental FZ music is at or near zero. Kelly Fisher Lowe isn't exactly a widely recognized music expert as Christgau is (ha ha), but he is a musician who understands FZ's music. I would like to find other writers to quote who are similar to Kelly but more widely recognized.24.143.118.36 (talk) 20:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes—see WP:SPLIT into subpages, like History of music is from Music. Remsense  诉  22:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

"Greek and Arab descent"
I want to thank 93.66.85.208 for once again removing the reference to "Greek and Arab descent". FZ's father was born in Sicily to a family of Sicilian descent. It is really very misleading to say that FZ was of "Greek and Arab descent". Nearly all Sicilians actually have some level of "Greek and Arab descent", especially going back 2,000 years or more. They also have a lot of other influences that were never mentioned in the article. See the article on Sicilians. They have had their own language and culture for a very long time. When FZ said he had "Greek and Arab descent" he was merely describing most Sicilians in general, not himself or his family in particular. The people of Rome today are radically different, ethnically, linguistically and culturally that the ancient Romans. Same difference. Please stop re-adding "Greek and Arab descent" back into the article.24.143.109.40 (talk) 20:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the removal again. That content is explicitly and perfectly sourced in the article. - DVdm (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Please explain "content is explicitly and perfectly sourced" in contrast to evidence to the contrary in the Wikipedia article on Sicilians.


 * It's fine to quote FZ in context but he was definitely not an expert on Sicilian history. The previous editor 93.66.85.208 has previously edited articles on Italian culture and may have actually had a good reason for editing the article. I don't claim to be an expert but I do read history. Perhaps DVdm can learn something from an Italian or someone who is an expert.


 * Read the cited source: it says "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French.". - Don't revert again. - DVdm (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent. The article says that "his father, whose name was anglicized to Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent. - DVdm (talk) 23:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is what the cited source says: "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French. My mother's mother was French and Sicilian, and her Dad was Italian (from Naples). She was first generation. The Greek-Arab side is from my Dad. He was born in a Sicilian village called Partinico, and came over on one of the immigrant boats when he was a kid." - DVdm (talk) 23:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Someone is not listening and not talking to Sicilians. You have ignored the fact that the cited source is not an expert on Sicilian history or ancestry. If you are unable to support your argument it is not valid. I will agree to change it to say something like "Zappa emphasized the Greek and Arabic aspects of his Sicilian ancestry." The problem is that he left out the many other parts of his Sicilian ancestry as explained in the article about Sicilians which you have not read.24.143.109.40 (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * "And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent."


 * This is false. It makes no sense unless you are trying to argue that FZ was not the son of his father. Please stop lying about what is in the article. Here is the quote from the article. Maybe you didn't read it: Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent.


 * Please indent your talk page messages as outlined in wp:THREAD and wp:INDENT — See Help:Using talk pages. Thanks.
 * Yes, the descent is indeed in the lead. I was looking at the version before I undid the removal. In the original, long standing version, there is a note explaining it. And of course, if your father is of some descent, you obviously are as well. There really is no problem here. If you don't agree, there's always wp:DR. - DVdm (talk) 08:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)