Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive 6

The Lebanese connection
Following this exchange I removed Zappa from the List of Lebanese people which was citing page 15 of TRFZB but my copy does not mention Lebanese. Lame Name (talk) 02:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Acid Mothers Temple
It's absurd that they're not mentioned under "Artists influenced by Zappa". They basicly WORSHIP him...79.78.27.84 (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there a reliable source for this claim as he does not get a mention in their own article? Lame Name (talk) 02:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

New Album
Philly '76, I believe it is called. Will get to creating a stub. Zazaban (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

New Album
Philly '76, I believe it is called. Will get to creating a stub. Zazaban (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no idea why this was archived so fast. Anyway, I've created the page, but it still needs work. Help would be appreciated. Zazaban (talk) 01:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The absence of avant-garde as a listed genre
It seems lately the avant-garde genre has been under fire with an insistence that it practically doesn't exist in music other than decades old compositions. An insistence that music historically deemed "avant-garde" is to from now on only be categorized as "experimental". Such is the nature of Wikipedia's current avant-garde music article. Nevertheless, this article currently drops numerous references to Zappa's interactions with the very real genre. Zappa agrees to the genre in a 1974 interview. Does anyone have an objection to its inclusion? If so, please permanently append a reason why to the talk page --Pixel Eater (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * "Avant-garde music" and "Frank Zappa" are separate articles. To describe Zappa as avant-garde in his article see Citing sources and WikiProject Music, though I assume a cited source, especially a quote from Zappa self-identifying as such, would be enough. To include Zappa in the avant-garde category see Categorization. Hyacinth (talk) 01:56, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Separate articles? I was just talking about its inclusion in the genres listed in the infobox, and possibly very minor revisions to the article if useful. I interpreted its omission as deliberate since on the whole the genre in relation to Wikipedia has taken a beating. Pixel Eater (talk) 04:55, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If I counted correctly, the term avant-garde is mentioned 5 times in the main text (not including the notes and refs) of this article, whereas experimental is mentioned 2 times. Not that I personnally really care, but I think that avant-garde can safely be mentioned in the infobox without this article losing its FA-quality. I have boldly added it. DVdm (talk) 10:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Proof
I am not sure that there is any positive proof that anyone had any Arab or Greek ancestors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.66.223 (talk) 17:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not about proof (or even about truth), but about wp:sources. The statement about Zappa's ancestors is properly sourced ("Zappa with Occhiogrosso, 1989, The Real Frank Zappa Book, p. 15"). That's really all we need. DVdm (talk) 20:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Agressive archive bot...
Could we have slightly less agressive a Cluebot parameter set, leaving, say, at least 2 or 3 sections? I boldly went ahead and left minkeepthreads at 3. DVdm (talk) 22:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Then-senator's ex-wife
A few days ago there was some news about the Al Gore/Tipper Gore divorce. A few minutes later someone changed the phrase "by then-Senator Al Gore's wife Tipper Gore" into "by then-Senator Al Gore's ex-wife Tipper Gore". This sounds a bit strange to me, as it suggests that they were divorded at that time in the past. I think that we really should write "by then-Senator Al Gore's then-wife Tipper Gore", but that looks quite akward as well. Does anyone have a suggestion for good alternative? DVdm (talk) 21:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha, I think this is better: "... by Tipper Gore, at that time married to then-senator Al Gore". I made the change. If anyone has a still better way, feel free. DVdm (talk) 21:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

How about "by then senator Al Gore's former wife Tipper Gore".- Just an anonymous thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.254.246 (talk) 17:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources / Evidence of Arab American ancestry of Frank Zappa ?
I often heard statements and rumours about Frank's Arab American background, but never found any concrete proof or reference for that. I remember that he mentioned in his autobiography that his father is from Sicily. Of course, the is some statistical probability that a person originating from Sicily has Arab ancestors, if you know the history of the place. However, then you would have to classify the majority of Italian American celebrities, movie stars, entertainers, philantrophists, mobsters, politicians, scientists, etc. as "Arab American" .... ;-)

--Ischtiraki (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * He himself mentions Arab ancestry in the autobiography. Whatever this means is not up to us to judge, we can only reference it. FunkMonk (talk) 23:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * So everything Zappa said was true? Where are the reliable independent third party sources?  As Don Preston points out: "A lot of stuff in that book is bull shit. It was just his imagination.".   Lame Name (talk) 05:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Surely not everything anyone says is true. But it is a verifiable fact that Zappa mentions Arab ancestry. An extra "third party source" (aka secondary source) would be welcome, but is i.m.o. not mandatory. DVdm (talk) 08:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and without anything to back it up, we are in no position to decide what part of what he says is true. FunkMonk (talk) 10:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Right. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.". DVdm (talk) 12:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I am one who thinks that Zappa's dad was of Arab & Greek descent is inaccurate. His dad was fucking Sicilian & his mom was Sicilian/French,enough said.& I think that the false indications of Arab & Greek descent should be taken off his page & the pages of his children. The Arab and Greek statements are there just becausehe has a HOOK NOSE!!! (www.nndb.com) 11:00 5 November 2010
 * Eh, no, it's there because he claimed so himself in his autobiography. That's all we have to go by. FunkMonk (talk) 04:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"Classical composer"?
Just because music is orchestral doesn't mean it is classical. Zappa didn't write "classical" music, he wrote modern orchestral music. This should probably be changed because as it is it sounds as if it was written by someone who doesn't really know much about classical music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.184.232 (talk) 04:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Please sign your talk messages with four tildes (~) ? Thanks
 * Have you tried Francesco Zappa (album)? He didn't write it of course, but he performed it and released the album. It can't get any more classical than that. As far as I can, see the article and the infobox don't really say that he wrote classic music. The string "classic" appears 20 times in the article. Did you have any particular occurrence in mind? - DVdm (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Classical music means music written for classical instruments using classical western notation etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.102.214.233 (talk) 20:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Please sign your talk messages with four tildes (~) ? Thanks
 * I'm not sure if that is the "official definition" (-- surely that "etc." in there is a bit problematic--), but even if it is, then, since Francesco Zappa (album) contains music for classical instruments using classical western notation, written by a classical composer, the album can be said to contain classical music. DVdm (talk) 20:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not the definition classical music uses, at any rate. Still, Zappa wrote for classical (and other) instruments -- just look at the instrumentation on (say) Lumpy Gravy, which includes a broad range of percussion, woodwinds, string, and brass -- and is most certainly composed in classical notation. If composers such as Stockhausen and Stravinsky can be considered classical composers (and Wikipedia does include them in the relevant categories), then Zappa fits there too. I understand that there are more than one meaning of the term "classical music"; the broader one encompasses these composers, while the narrower one only allows for the "classical period" 1750-1820 or maybe includes Romantic and Baroque. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Quite indeed. Since the two unsigned anons clearly embody the, lets's say, "more narrow type of classical music definers", I chose to stick with Francesco, which is so classical that, alas, it almost hurts ;-) - DVdm (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Removing Billy Bob Thornton as Notable Musician
Thornton is primarily known for his work with film, not music. I am removing him from the list of notable musicians influenced by Zappa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.254.246 (talk) 17:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Grammy Award dedicated to Frank by Dweezil Zappa
OK. Given that the lead editor was given a year suspension (I believe it was) from editing, here's a question. Anyone know if this article includes the Grammy Award for Best Rock Instrumental Performance won by Dweezil Zappa at the 51st Grammy Awards for his performance with Zappa Plays Zappa of "Peaches en Regalia"? I ask because he decidated it to his late father Frank Zappa. He was particularly emotional because it was the 40th anniversary of Frank's recording of the album containing the song, and it was the album dedicated to his newborn son, Dweezil. I really think this belongs somewhere here and also at either the Dweezil Zappa or Zappa Plays Zappa articles. Obviously it left an intense impact on Dweezil.--Leahtwosaints (talk) 15:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact is prominently mentioned in the articles Zappa Plays Zappa, Napoleon Murphy Brock, Scheila Gonzalez and Peaches en Regalia, and oddly enough not on Dweezil Zappa. By all means go ahead and add it on Dweezil Zappa, and even here on Frank Zappa. If you want to mention that Dweezil said that it was the 40th anniversary of the album and that the song was originally dedicated to Dweezil, you need to present the youtube as a source, and I'm not sure that it will be accepted here on this article, although it undoubtedly satisfies WP:V. As far as I am concerned, go ahead. DVdm (talk) 17:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * If the album itself can count as a citation - I don't really know the rules side of wikipedia that well - the album's booklet says "dedicated to DWEEZIL, BUB, & GIL". Stuart Morrow (talk) 23:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is what we call a primary source. We prefer secondary sources, but if you look at the policy note in WP:PRIMARY ("A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to..."), i.m.o. this source can certainly be used to state that the album is dedicated to etc. This clearly satisies WP:V. DVdm (talk) 09:17, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a secondary source in Ben Watson's book (The Negative Dilectics of Poodle Play) on page 162: "The album was dedicated to Dweezil, born to the Zappas in late 1969.", so you can add this as a reference:
 * DVdm (talk) 10:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * DVdm (talk) 10:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Archive history numbering
Every other list of archived talk pages that I've seen goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. Frank Zappa's goes 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6. Appropriate! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theresonator (talk • contribs) 13:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)