Talk:Franz Kafka/Archive 4

Translation Issues
I see nothing in this section that shows that Kafka's German is any harder to translate into English than that of any other German writer. In particular, the illustrative sentence is a perfectly normal German sentence, easily translatable into a perfectly normal English sentence. If someone wishes to discuss the difficulties of translating German into English, in general, another forum would probably be more appropriate. So: I'm deleting the 'Translation' section. ChengduTeacher (talk) 12:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The section has extensive sources discussing the difficulties of translating Kafka in particular, not German in general. Removing it would be a bad idea. BencherliteTalk 12:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see, you didn't actually wait for anyone else to have their say first. I've restored the article.  Please wait for consensus to develop on this issue now, per WP:BRD. BencherliteTalk 12:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The assertion by ChengduTeacher that the relevant posed sentence in the translation section of the article is no harder to translate than any other German sentence is absolutely correct. The implication that this speaks to Kafka's style, however, is absolutely wrong.  Kafka writes in an extremely indirect, subtle, delicate, enigmatic style that tends to mirror the subject matter's difficulty and strangeness.  The translating convention into English has always been to break the subordinate clauses up into simple declarative sentences, such that the effect in English is to counterpoise the odd and perplexing content with a matter-of-fact presentation.  Thus, high school students being introduced to "Metamorphosis" are taught that this tension between content and form is part of Kafka's power as a writer.  Later translations have attempted to correct this type of rewriting, but the 'standard' version still reigns supreme; in fact, the original method for the production copy may have been submission to a 'rewrite man' to clean up the text or reduce it to the suitable reading level for the target audience, as is Standard Operating Procedure for troubling works, such as those of Alexander Solzhenitsyn for a very different reason.Euonyman (talk) 20:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

'''I was asked for my reasons. I though that I had given them pretty clearly, but here is a fuller version.'''

Here's what I deleted:

''Kafka often made extensive use of a characteristic particular to the German language allowing for long sentences that sometimes can span an entire page. Kafka's sentences then deliver an unexpected impact just before the full stop—that being the finalizing meaning and focus. This is due to the construction of subordinate clauses in German which require that the verb be positioned at the end of the sentence. Such constructions are difficult to duplicate in English, so it is up to the translator to provide the reader with the same (or at least equivalent) effect found in the original text.[203] German's more flexible word order and syntactical differences provide for multiple ways the same German writing can be translated into English.[204] Kafka did not write in standard High German, but rather in a Praguean German heavily influenced by the Yiddish and Czech languages, making it even more difficult to translate his works.[205] An example is the first sentence of Kafka's "The Metamorphosis", which is crucial to the setting and understanding of the entire story:[206]''

'Als Gregor Samsa eines Morgens aus unruhigen Traumen erwachte fand er sich in seinem Bett zu einem ungeheuren Ungeziefer verwandelt. (Original)''

''As Gregor Samsa one morning from restless dreams awoke, found he himself in his bed into an enormous vermin transformed. (literal word for word translation)[207]'

Another virtually insurmountable ...

Most of this is simply talking about the difficulties of translating German into English, IN GENERAL, due to differing word order and sentence patterns. There's nothing Kafka-specific about ending a German sentence with a verb! This material doesn't belong here. As mentioned earlier, the German sentence given is normal and easily translatable. The only Kafka-specific statements are that his sentences can go on for an entire page, and that his language is influenced by Yiddish and Czech. That those features of his writing make translation more difficult, however, is an unsourced claim as far as I can tell. If anyone wants to source either of those statements (in the next day or so) they may deserve to survive: the rest definitely doesn't. ChengduTeacher (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You are correct in saying that this section does mention differences between English and German. However, each point made in this section cites critical works specific to Kafka; these citations indicate long-standing scholarly concern with translation issues unique to his writing. It therefore seems unwise to delete this section. Mkumar (talk) 17:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mkumar. Pumpkin Sky   talk  19:10, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

In order to be worth the reader's time, this section needs to answer the question: what, if anything, makes Kafka'a works harder to translate than anything else written in German, or indeed any fiction written in a foreign language? German's subordinate clause structure tends to lead to a pile of verbs at the end, and the meaning-auras of its words are not exactly the same as those of roughly-corresponding English words. It has dialects. All of these lead to challenges that it is any German translator's job to overcome. But why is Kafka's German, specifically, hard to translate? Finnegan's Wake, for example, would be hard to translate well into a non-english languagem for obvious reasons. Are there similar reasons for Kafka?There may be answers in the references (I don't have the books), but the material in the article simply amounts to: because it's written in German, which I think is not enough to justify the space. ChengduTeacher (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It sounds to me that you have not read Kafka in the original. This raises two issues:  One is the way Kafka has been translated into English, and the other is the stylistic difference between Kafka and other 20th Century German authors.  For the first issue, anyone who reads both English and German recognizes the liberties that have been taken in translation with his texts.  The most common method is to reduce his long complex sentences to series of simple declarative ones, making the texts look like reportage of bizarre events rather than the elaborate and subtle telling of strange stories.  Hemingway instead of Joyce, for lack of a better metaphor.  For the second issue, Kafka's style is markedly dissimilar to rough contemporaries, such as Max Frisch, Robert Musil, and Stefan Zweig, who do not suffer so much in translation, because stylistically they are much more accessible.  Only by reading in German would one recognize the patent differences.Euonyman (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with your question. Obviously translating German lit to English is done, eg. authors such as Thomas Mann and Hermann Hesse. Kafka's use of language or wording is different & probably goes to his modernism among other things (and your example of Finnegan's Wake). Sources exist to support these theories and in my view the section could do with a slight re-working. This source looks promising, but I haven't had time to look at it yet. But I'm not one of the primary editors and haven't edited here much. (Except to post to the talkpage). Victoria (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree a rewording won't hurt. But I can't agree to a total removal of the section. I will pull that article in full and see what it says. Pumpkin Sky  talk  02:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Samples from this source: 1) speaking of the opening where he uses ungeheueres Ungeziefer "variety of vitiating interpretations precisely in the case of this pregnant and critical symbol precisely in the case of this pregnant and critical symbol." 2) "The resulting imbalance reflects a lack, on the part of some interpreters, of an ideal sensitivity to Kafka's tightly measured prose and its intimate relevance to the symbolism it conveys." 3) getting to more general difficulties in translating K "Kafka's German deserves to be rendered in sympathetically accurate and connotative language. In plain yet connotative English, Gregor Samsa became a monstrous bug". It is quite clear that Lawson feels Kafka is not so easy to properly translate. I'm open to ideas of how to tweak. Will look for more sources too. Pumpkin Sky  talk  14:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This ref, by Lawson, is already in the article. It is currently ref 209. Pumpkin Sky  talk  11:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This ref looks promising too. Pumpkin Sky  talk  17:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Samples from this include 1) she calls translating Kafka a "labyrinth" and "a concern with vocabulary and idiom and a consequent questioning of the reliability of Kafka's texts in English translation." 2) "A Kafkan text does seem more designed to foster stumbling than to allow any easy determination of meaning, and, of course, translators as well as exegetes are bound to be tripped up along the way. But it is, perhaps, precisely at such moments of stumbling that a reader is confronted with the resistant materiality of language, stopped up short, and faced with the challenge of struggling toward meaning. And if such stumbling blocks are removed in the process of translation, any meaning, however tentatively derived from the translated text, is necessarily different from that suggested by the text in the original language." 3) "carefully and curiously selected vocabulary" 4) she then goes on to give several specific examples of translations compared to the original German and why they are insufficient, in one spot saying "The English translation fails to convey the circular motion of the text by translating the Zustand of the first sentence as..." 5) "...translations limit interpretive possibilities which remain open in Kafka's German" 6) "the translation slips I have pinpointed here are most often due to failures to maintain repeated vocabulary or to translate pronouns consistently." 7) "These repeated words mark places in the text where narrative strands come together, entangle, and designate potential meaning. A translator's task is not to untangle these clusters of repetition but to leave them intact in the translated texts as hermeneutic knots over which the reader stumbles and puzzles" Pumpkin Sky   talk  19:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The section was more specific before the FAC process, that part is now found in Franz Kafka works, - perhaps a link at the beginning of the section might help? There is room to add more in the more specific article, feel free to do so, - there were reasons to keep it short in the general biography. It should not be removed completely, because it IS more difficult to translate Kafka than "normal German", - just take the music of "ungeheuren Ungeziefer" that you can"t imitate even if you could get the meaning right. (Beware, OR) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I added the link to the section. The refs I mention should go here or in the works article. Pumpkin Sky   talk  01:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added this ref to the article and tweaked the article a bit. It is currently ref 210. Will do likewise to the Works article. Pumpkin Sky   talk  11:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've rephrased slightly but won't be bothered if reverted. I'm thinking it might be okay to pull the bit about German sentences ending with a verb because I think the translation problems are much more complex and nuanced w/ Kafka, but I readily admit I've been busy IRL and haven't had the time to delve into the sources above. Victoria (talk) 16:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your choice of word there is better. Thanks. Pumpkin Sky   talk  16:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Kafka reference in Breaking Bad episode Kafkaesque
Here is one sourse that Kafka is DIRECTLY referenced by Breaking Bad, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/09/literary-references-breaking-bad-_n_3731502.html#slide=2786642

Also the episode is titled Kafkaesque http://www.amctv.com/shows/breaking-bad/episodes/season-3/kafkaesque

The direct reference is at a group therapy meeting, Jesse describes his new workplace as a boring corporate laundromat he complains about his boss, that he's not worthy to meet the owner whom everyone fears. "Sounds kind of Kafkaesque," responds the group leader. This does fall into the section cultural legacy and the List The following are examples of works across a range of literary, musical, and dramatic genres which demonstrate the extent of cultural influence: and so should be included in the list.

Although I do not understand how to site sources in Wikipedia because I am not a computer wiz(I can site sources in papers and such using MLA/APA styles)I do believe that this reference to Kafka should be included since it was done in a MAJOR television series, and many people after seeing this show (including myself) who had never heard of him until it's reference. Like wise I believe that should a page be developed discussing Kafka it should direct here also — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cr8meone (talk • contribs) 23:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Along thematic characteristics, stylistic characteristics merit to be in the lede, too
This (reverted) edit was made with the intention to give Wikipedia readers of the article also some info on (modernist) Formal/Stylistic characteristics of Kafka's work. Please discuss. -- DancingPhilosopher ( talk ) 13:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's in the source and frankly interesting that he influenced science fiction writers, but I'd suggest moving to the "Literary influence" section. I'd also suggest that it's okay to wait a day until the activity on the page calms a little. Let's see what the primary contributors think. Victoria (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I never track changes to a TFA while it's on the main page. Best to wait til it's over to decide what to keep permanently. Pumpkin Sky   talk  19:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If Gerda agrees, I can agree to putting that back in, but it shouldn't need the refs because the lead should be a summary of the article and what we add to the lead should be in the body. If need be we can add a bit to the body, with refs. Let's see what Gerda says. Pumpkin Sky  talk  02:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the lead should first introduce basics to someone who doesn't even know that Kafka is a writer. The post seems too specialized too soon. Please word here what you would like to be part of the article body, with the sources. Let's discuss that, then insert, then see how to perhaps summarize it in the lead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Inasmuch as Metamorphosis is widely taught in high schools in the United States, The Hunger Artist is widely anthologized, The Castle and The Trial are frequent readings in advanced literature courses, and Kafka himself is an essential entry in the history of 20th Century literature, and a seminal figure in various literary genres, including existentialist and surrealist literature, the lead is adequate, although some tweaking may be helpful—isn't it usually?Euonyman (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I can see Gerda's point. We can work this out. Leads should be a summary for sure. Pumpkin Sky   talk  12:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow. What a lot of minutia B.S. about one guy. They left out what color pajamas he wore. Maybe what they say about the Wikipedia bent is true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.1.100.148 (talk) 17:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Use in Foreign Language Learning
From my experience and the experience of many other people I've known, Kafka's writings are often used in the earlier years of German as a foreign language instruction. This is done presumably because Kafka often tells very interesting stories with fairly simple language and is therefore one of the most accessible writers in the German language. I've read what others have said in this article about his extensive use of the SOV order in subordinate clauses, but this is normal in German and something a student cannot avoid learning even in the first semester. Even his long sentences tend to have an easy natural flow. Where long sentences become difficult in German is when the subordinate clauses get so deeply nested within each other that the verbs from multiple clauses all pile up together at the end of the sentence. (BTW, even in the main clause with a compound verb, all but the inflected verb follow the SOV order.) Unfortunately I don't know where to find sources for the frequency of and reasons for the use of Kafka in the early phases of German language instruction. Maybe a German teacher can document this. Bostoner (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Good point. When I was studying German literature, I did not find Kafka particularly hard to read.  I did find him subtle, a facet of his style that is almost lost in the older translations.  It's not always because it is broken down in English to successions of simple declarative sentences but because those sentences are often blocky and humorless.  Personally, I found some of Robert Musil more baffling but not on account of style.  At times, it was difficult to see what he was getting at.  Luckily I had a teacher who made us talk about what we were reading as literature, not simply studies in German.  Some modern works, such as Max Frisch's Homo Faber, are perfectly straightforward whether you read them in the original or in translation.  It's "adult" subject matter, however, that might not go over in some programs.  That was another benefit of my teacher.  She was not squeamish.  You see, in this country we find it okay to imagine a person transforming into an inhuman monster reviled by his own family but we balk at portraying an affair between a man and his daughter, even when they are both unaware of their connection.Euonyman (talk) 19:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Introduction
I'm not an expert in Kafka, but I suggest someone edit the intro to this article. First, there is no mention of humor in Kafka's texts in the intro, and I believe there is already a lot about it written. I remenber reading that Kafka read this work aloud for friends in cafes and they all had a lot of fun. Of course, many people fail to see this exactly because of the stress in the dark gloomy aspect of his work. Definying a Czech Jew as a German speaking person is kind of funny. Am I an English speaking scholar because my thesis is in English? I don't think so. Kafka was a Czech Jew. Also, it seems to me that the interpretation of the identity issue is kind of funny. I remember reading that Jews had a strong Czechoslovakian identity (that country emerged after the 1st war). The comment on identity should be backed, presented with other views, or simply taken from the text. Actually, I just thought that the two things are connected. Identity and humor. --HeloPait (talk) 13:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't help that he spoke and wrote in German, and he was Czech only from 1918 to his death, became Czech automatically when Austria-Hungary collapsed, without national identity as far as I know. - Humor, fine, how would you word it? With a source please? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Bohemian Jews and Czech Jews
I would like to invite editors to express their opinions about Talk:Czechs.--Der Golem (talk) 09:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Please add ESSENTIAL KAFKA
request edit

>> please add Essential Kafka, Rendezvous with Otherness - Authorhouse 2011, 9 Stories & 3 novel excerpts, translated by Phillip Lundberg to the bibliography. You might also see fit to add it to the Translation section (recent-"Critical") as I used the latest German edition to do my translation, thanks! ISBN 978-1-4389-9021-7  <<<<

I very much appreciate your attention to this matter. You may email me at philliplundberg@earthlink.net << should you have any ?s or are nice enough to inform me that you have taken care of the matter.

Thanks, P.L.


 * Phillip (talk) 14:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I added it a while ago. - I reverted your last edit because the fact is mentioned before, and the article is already very long. Thank you for contributions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Dear Gerda - Thank you for adding Essential Kafka - however there is at least 1 mistake, maybe 2. I have no idea where the names "Deleuze and Gerattari" came from, the publisher is Authorhouse, 2011; also I would prefer the listing to come in the "Bibliography" section (not "Further Reading") - which brings up the ? as to whether it should be under "Lundberg, Phillip" OR "Kafka, Franz" - as that seems to be where the translations have been put. I might note that it's rather a mess, mixing things up & perhaps it would be best to have a "Translations" section separate from the other sections where the various translations are listed with the respective translators being the key.... Of course, now we would be talking about some extensive editing work and perhaps it would be simplest just to move my translation out of "Further Reading" and into the "Bibliography" section - ?? Your call, these computers are way to complicated for my tastes...

Thanks Again!! - phillip. Phillip (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, will fix the publisher, but can't get it to the bibliography section unless it's a reference. What do think of adding it to Franz Kafka works? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Sure, you could certainly put it there too - I'm sorry that I've been negligent on checking the status of this talk item. I'll try to do better though this may well wrap up the issue as best as possible. Again, Thank you for your help ... if you're interested in my translation there is a free download of Josephine, etc. from my website which is ez to find, just google my name - a link should be obvious in the 1st five choices to Tallyho!

yours, pl. Phillip (talk) 22:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed Clause on Difficulty
I removed the clause:

Kafka did not write in standard High German, but rather in a Praguean German heavily influenced by the Yiddish and Czech languages, making it even more difficult to translate his works.

Simply because I've found so much evidence to the contrary both on this discussion page, Banville's Article, Neugroschel's discussion of the difficulty of translating Kafka (who happens to speak Yiddish and Prague German), and numerous other places including a conversation with a German speaker. Deleuze and Guattari do not make any citations of their claim, and neither speak German as a first language. If anyone wishes to challenge me on this, I'd be more than happy to discuss it further. At the moment, it appears Guattari and Deleuze were very mistaken when making this claim.Artimaean (talk) 21:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, that makes sense, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
 * as a native speaker of german i can assure you that kafka's original writings are in normal standard German 12:57, 6 October 2014 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.96.95 (talk)

Translation difficulties exaggerated, not unusual, irrelevant, let's delete
Absurd. When is translation easy? Whenever one has to deal with colloquialisms, or with poetry of any sort, when the meaning of words is vague or multifaceted, there's difficulty. We're here describing most of the world's literature. That's a universal translation problem, not something unique to "translating Kafka into English." Want something you can translate universally? I give you Euclid's "Elements."

As for the other specific "difficulty" mentioned here, the sentence construction with the verb at the end, there are at least two problems with this complaint. One is that, were it true, it wouldn't matter, because understanding a text isn't a matter of the psychological impact of your first reading of a sentence. As in, "oh, THAT's the verb, how that changes the experience of the story!" It might be true for inexperienced readers, middle schoolers for example, and it's certainly a problem with comedy because it messes up the timing, but that's it. The second problem (see my use of the subjunctive, above) is that it's not true. English is flexible enough for the verb to come at the end. See Shakespeare for a thousand examples. Yes, in the hands of most translators it will sound awkward, but that just means you need a better translation or a more intelligent reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.232.191.16 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Ask for help
What does the "Bare throat" means? Suebear Gaua (talk) 09:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * We are quoting a translation to English of "Freier Hals", literally "free neck" or bare neck, uncovered neck. No idea where throat comes from, but can't change the quote. Anybody who can find a better one welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh,thank you very much.At first,i think it means silence，And from the Vietnamese language Wikipedia page of Franz Kafka (it was translated from the English),i find the "Bare throat" means the "uncovered neck",but am not very sure,so i came to this talk page to ask for help,so thank you.--Suebear Gaua (talk) 03:31, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

"Infobox writer"?
Shouldn't Kafka have an Infobox writer instead of Infobox person? It would look the same in the article, but it would look better to all sorts of Semantic Web tools. -- 176.186.77.90 (talk) 10:58, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No, because there is no guarantee that the name of an infobox matches the occupation of the person described in the article it is used on. Besides, the infobox currently in this article includes Novelist and Short story writer, which are more precise than just "writer". Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:47, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Kafka should be added to Category:Surrealist Writers
So I really think Kafka should be added to that category. My edit was reverted however with the comment "not in the sense of our article on Surrealist writing". Well I think it's obvious and well sourced (just look it up yourself; example 1, 2, 3; it's even and for good reason included in the article itself) that Kafka was a surreal writer. He might have expanded on the ordinary surreal. But that doesn't make his works less surreal. Hence if the article on surrealism doesn't capture his taste of the surreal that article should be expanded (including mentioning Kafka) instead of having Kafka blocking out of the surreal categorization. And yes that might require shifting the focus a little bit from the art movement towards the "Surrealism" itself (that's the title of the article after all and should be its topic!). --Fixuture (talk) 18:46, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * To my understanding, to write about something surreal is not the same as being part of a style or movement called Surrealism which began later, according to our article which says it began in the early 1920s, - after most of Kafka' major works were written. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Well then I guess Kafka should at least be mentioned as a precursor or something alike. And I think it's worth a discussion to consider moving the focus away from Surrealism's origins (the cultural movement) towards its essence and characteristics of itself. For example: Cyberpunk was and is also a social and cultural movement (in which it has its origins and life-force), while at the same time being of a specific quality - a property and artistic categorization. The movement and its output are always intertwined and codependent - for any larger cultural phenomena that emerged there's also an underlying movement. The problem with surrealism's article is that for the most part it digs beneath the culturally perceivable plane under which those people united and which they shaped (or: found² [as did Kafka]) to the detriment of the thing itself. The conflict of the adjective surreal and surrealism as a movement should be descriptive of that and not be regarded as any kind of exception to the rule. There are surrealist artists/movement that use their cultural domain to subvert and influence reality by their fiction/art (characteristic being the stark conflict with what is thought to be real; the attempt to make look beyond by making otherwise impossible) as well as there's cyberpunk artists/movement that use their cultural domain to subvert and influence reality by their fiction/art (characteristic being the dystopic extrapolation [continuation, from a realistic technological approach, and disorganized acceleration] of what is thought to be real [or: thought in the real]; the attempt to make look beyond by technological and societal forethought [and human/psychological dystopic introspective]). Where surrealism has Kafka as a preceding (prior and "outside" the cultural mass-phenomenon) artist, cyberpunk has Philip K. Dick (cyberpunk as a movement only really started with Neuromancer). Nothing in the cultural complex is sharply discrete as it's an interwoven continuous fabric - none of it can be said of to have started at a certain point with the previous blended out of sight. My point is that Kafka is a too large strand (root might not essentially be the fitting term here; ²again: recognizing the "found" prospect of it might help in understanding my point) in what is "surrealism" to be left out. Just like PKD's works are too cyberpunk to be left out on the Cyberpunk article, Kafka's works are too surreal to be left out on the surrealism article.
 * But I guess that's more of a point I should take to surrealism's talk page than here. --Fixuture (talk) 22:09, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok, I moved it there by now: Talk:Surrealism. Please proceed with the upper section as you wish and if desired join the discussion on the linked Talk page. --Fixuture (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Anschel
In the first line it is said that Kafka has a "Jewish name: אנשיל, Anschel;". Does anybody know what this does mean? As far as the article goes, Kafka's official last name was Kafka, and he didn't seem to use a pseudonym. When or where or by whom was the "Jewish name" used? That should be explained somewhere. Ilyacadiz (talk) 21:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Google doodle notable?
Could anyone please elaborate as to why the mention of a google doodle isn't considered WP:Trivia on this page? -- CFCF  🍌 (email) 14:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Affiliation
Franz Kafka was born and raised in Prague and lived his whole life in the Czech Lands.

He spoke Czech and had Czechoslovakian citizenship.

Franz Kafka was a Czech-Jew.

He could not be anything else.

Btw. The Czechs were forced to speak German under hapsburg Misrule.

--Posp68 (talk) 20:44, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Addition of Jan Hladík etching image
Somebody added this image which I have since reverted. I feel that it is not an improvement by having in the article for the following reasons:


 * 1) -- Neither the artist or the picture are mentioned in the text.  Was this a notable picture in its own right? If so, would it be worthy of including in prose form first before the image is added?
 * 2) -- The image is nearly sixty years out of date in terms of the text;
 * 3) -- Does not visually aid the reader anymore than any other Kafka image, of which there are plenty;
 * 4) -- A major edit, such as this, on a featured article would require some level of discussion on the talk page first as it would alter the version which passed WP:FAC.  Those who took part there might not agree with the picture being added, thus voiding their support vote.  If I were reviewing this article st FAC I would almost certainly be questioning its role in the article.

Thanks.  Cassianto Talk   14:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not bothered one way or the other. I edited the change which described the image as a sketch rather than an etching, but did not add the image. Some thoughts:
 * Notability refers to articles. Is the image significant per the article? The article is about Kafka; the image is an artist's rendering of Kafka. As an etched portrait rather than photograph does it provide a further visual insight into Kafka beyond photographs
 * WP is full of older images which do not coincide in time with the text they are describing.
 * Good idea to discuss a change but I don't consider it major since it does not change text or meaning although it does change the visual impact.
 * I like seeing the etching since as an artist this is meaningful to me and adds insight, realize this is not true for everyone, and as I said I'm fine with the image there or removed.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2016 (UTC))

You say: As far as I can see the image is not notable; there have been literally hundreds of drawings, pictures, sketches, and prints of Kafka over the years. This image offers us nothing visually of Kafka that other images can't. It may, on the other hand, be more suitable to be included in Jan Hladík's article.  Cassianto Talk   16:36, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Muddle with novella
I mistakenly adjusted the quotes around "The Metamorphosis" to be italicized as if a novel. Apologies for the muddle on that edit.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC))


 * No problem, only "novella" doesn't even appear in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Just that "Matamorphosis" is a novella; I had mistakenly treated it as a novel. (Littleolive oil (talk) 00:41, 9 November 2016 (UTC))


 * Who says "is"? In German, the stories are all called the same, "Erzählung" (story), not one singled out. "Novella" is some English category, - yes, it's in our article about the work, - sorry we neglected those when we worked on the biography. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:31, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

German-language writer
Does nobody else feel that this could be better worded?--John Bird (talk) 02:43, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * No, and you seem to be on some form of campaign to add 'Jewish' to nationality here and elsewhere - that needs justification Snowded  TALK 21:50, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Many reviewers looked during the FAC process (click on the bolded "identitified" above), and many readers look every day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

"some sort of campaign"? I made one single edit. Kafka was born in Prague which is now in modern-day Czech Republic but at the time of his birth was part of the multi-ethnic Austria-Hungary, he was a German-speaking ethnic Jew. --John Bird (talk) 23:36, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Fake quote
There is a quotation cited by citation number 193 that claims to have been found in Kafka's diary. This quotation is fake and should be removed; or, at least, it does not exist in the material mentioned.

I've pasted the fake quote here: Enclosed in my own four walls, I found myself as an immigrant imprisoned in a foreign country;... I saw my family as strange aliens whose foreign customs, rites, and very language defied comprehension;... though I did not want it, they forced me to participate in their bizarre rituals;... I could not resist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.80.203.45 (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

a Prague German-language novelist ?
What is a "Prague German-language novelist"? a novelist who writes Prague German? a Prague-based novelist who writes in German? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 21:27, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * It was, I'll remove it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

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Usage of 'kafkaesque' in The Squid and the Whale
Good evening. I inadvertently stumbled upon this page, and was struck by its gripping prose and layered construction. Thanks to everyone involved for their beautiful work in making this an FA. I was wondering, however, if the usage of the term 'kafkaesque' in the 2005 Noah Baumbach film warrants mention here. 'tis been a while since I've seen that film, but I have vivid memories of the scene where the adolescent Walt (Jesse Eisenberg) -- strongly influenced by his erudite father (Jeff Daniels) -- labels a Kafka novel 'kafkaesque' in front of his love interest, to her great bewilderment. Just curious. Best Gertanis (talk) 17:50, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

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Was K a civil servant?

 * I self-reverted an edit which removed "Austrian Civil servants". But just as a point of clarification. His employment with the workers accident insurance bureau, was this an arm of local government or was it a private company which had been contracted to do this by the Kingdom of Bohemia? Do we have any information on this? The passage is uncited. Irondome (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I belatedly realized that he was employed not only by Generali but also by the "Arbeiter-Unfall-Versicherungs-Anstalt für das Königreich Böhmen" - though it's not all clear to me to whether this was a public institution or another private insurance workers' compensation insurace (or underwriter) company.--2A00:1028:83BE:4392:FC27:ED7D:844B:6E89 (talk) 17:02, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Irondome (talk) 19:56, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Assicurazioni Generali was/still is quite clearly a private insurance company, the Arbeiter-Unfall-Versicherungs-Anstalt für das Königreich Böhmen (i.e. - roughly translated - "Workers' compensation insurance institute/establishment for the Kingdom of Bohemia") certainly sounds quite official-like. Again, I was not aware about the latter when I made my previous edit, otherwise I hadn't made it.--2A00:1028:83BE:4392:FC27:ED7D:844B:6E89 (talk) 20:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * (e/c)It is just not made clear in mainspace. I am assuming that K's latter job at the Arbeiter-Unfall-Versicherungs-Anstalt für das Königreich Böhmen was part of a public-private partnership. Insurance-related matters are almost invariably handled by the private sectors of most non-communist states as far as I am aware. So was FK part of an outsource? In which case what was his status? Seconded to the Bavarian state? We should have a dig around sources on this. Very specialised stuff but it would improve the article. Irondome (talk) 20:35, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


 * this source calls it a "government-supported insurance agency". – filelakeshoe (t / c) &#xF0F6;  20:29, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Which does not make the whole thing anything easier, at all - term "government-supported insurance agency" still does not make it much clearer if its clerks/officials were considered being 'civil servants' by the Austria-Hungary.-2A00:1028:83BE:4392:FC27:ED7D:844B:6E89 (talk) 21:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Moldau or Vltava?
German vs. Czech name? We don't write however Kleinseite. Xx236 (talk) 10:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Kafkaesque
An FA I think should have some history of the term, especially first usage. Spicemix (talk) 11:05, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * doesn't §4.2 do it for you? ——  SerialNumber  54129  11:25, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If you have reliable sources for first usage, feel free to add. I don't. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:31, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gerda. We can look out for it. I think someone somewhere will have mentioned it. Spicemix (talk) 12:43, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The FT and Merriam-Webster both say 1939, without a source. Wouldn't first usage have been in German? ——  SerialNumber  54129  13:15, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * OED has loads of sourced derivatives; The Guardian dates in to 1946. ——  SerialNumber  54129  13:24, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No, not at all used in German. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, after all, but it's de:Kafkaesk and even has an article, supporting the 1939 claim with an offline source. Perhaps that's what we could do: create a separate article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:23, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Inquisitorial versus Adversarial
"However, James Hawes argues many of Kafka's descriptions [...] are based on accurate and informed descriptions of German and Austrian criminal proceedings of the time, which were inquisitorial rather than adversarial.[204]" (in Critical interpretations)

This implies the criminal proceedings may be adversarial today. I am happy to report that the criminal courts in Germany still work inquisitorial to this day, looking for the truth.

Maybe the wording can be changed into, say ... descriptions of the inquisitorial German and Austrian criminal proceedings at the time or something similar?

82.1.102.235 (talk) 20:59, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Kafka was not Bohemian, should be switched to “Jewish” as Jewishness was an important part of the human experience for Kafka
Present in Kafka’s books were neither Bohemianism nor any ties to the land of Bohemia (if at all, his geographic ties were limited to the then-German city of Prague, where he was brought up). Kafka’s Jewishness was very important to him and caused him a great deal of angst present so much in his works.

I suggest to drop the misleading descriptor “Bohemian” and put “Jewish” in its place, as I don’t think this should be omitted in the case of Kafka. LordParsifal (talk) 14:06, 8 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why Bohemian is misleading as Prague was located in that Kingdom the time of this bith and it lasted to within six years of his death. The second paragraph makes it clear that he was born into a Jewish family.   If there is a source which supports an emphasis on ethnicity then happy to look at a change but he was not a practicing Jew in adulthood not, from my limited reading, did he emphasise it in his works, although his interest in his heritage is clear and there is controversy in the third party sources both on that and Zionism.  So I think the question falls back on policy and weight of third party sources.  Policy says that "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" so we have to establish the link to notability (which is not the same thing as influence in his writing). -Snowded TALK 14:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * When the article was TFA on Kafka's 130th birthday, there was neither Jewish nor Bohemian, and perhaps we should return to that, because for him as highly influential on international 20th-century literature, none of the two matters. I'd not object to "in Prague" instead, much better known than Bohemian. I don't remember when "Bohemian" was introduced, - it should have been discussed then, but we missed it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Prague is in part identified by Kafka so I have no objection to that change -Snowded TALK 14:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I also have no objection to the change to Prague. As for his Jewishness, it's already explicitly stated in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the lead, so on top of violating MOS:ETHNICITY, it's not required (and bad writing) to put it in the first sentence. Jayjg (talk) 16:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This may be entirely OR, but I would say Kafka's writing is part (even if a prominent one, to be sure!) of a rich Czecho-Polish surreal, bizarre, and partly satirical tradition that began centuries before him with Czech folk tales and still went on after him (other names from that tradition that come to mind would include Stanislaw Lem, Karel Zeman, Jan Švankmajer, Zdeněk Miler, Karel Capek, Roman Polanski, József Romhányi, Jindřich Polák, Jaroslav Hašek, Josef Nesvadba, Konrad Fiałkowski, Adam Wisniewski-Snerg, Jacek Yerka, and even Heinz Edelmann, production designer of Yellow Submarine (1968), was originally born in Prague).


 * Of course, that would be just one third of the kafkaesque experience that permeates his work, where the other two consisted out of a.) being Jewish within a predominantly anti-Semitic environment, and b.) having grown up in the highly kafkaesque empire of Austria-Hungary. Of course, his German prose is superb as another ingredient, but it's very hard to find any other Germanophone writers before Kafka that wrote like him. The closest equivalent in language *AND* motives would probably be Robert Walser (writer), while some remote resemblance in motives alone could probably be found in E. T. A. Hoffmann and Paul Scheerbart. Maybe, and that's a very big *MAYBE*, some very remote germs could be found in the irrationalism of Friedrich Hölderlin.


 * So, all in all, I guess Kafka was more of a perfect translator of a Czech and Jewish experience into German literature than actually coming from or contributing to a native German tradition. It's a fact which actually adds to the delightful strangeness of his stories, as he had next to no peers in German literature and is much closer to this age-old surreal and bizarre Czecho-Polish tradition. --2003:EF:1704:4E37:E9C1:113C:52E:DD9 (talk) 00:16, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Franz Kafka didn't play chess as "hobby"
The claim that Franz Kafka played chess regularly is based on a fairly well-known hoax. The link to a website hosted by a chess software company ("ChessBase") is not a reliable source. In any case, the article found under the link admits, after revision, that there is no proof that Franz Kafka played chess. Renasian (talk) 10:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * removed --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Ambiguous sentence
Quote:

"His father, Hermann Kafka (1854–1931), was the fourth child of Jakob Kafka, in Osek,(...)" Who was that ritual slaughterer, Hermann or Jakob? 85.193.228.103 (talk) 23:12, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 * For me, Jakob, because otherwise, it would better be "Hermann Kafka, a ritual slaughterer", no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:32, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
 * You are right, now I see it clearly. Thanks :-) 85.193.228.103 (talk) 14:16, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Titles in German
The titles of Kafka's works should be in English per WP:UE, since English sources overwhelmingly use English titles. This article is a violation of the policy due to a local consensus many years ago and we should correct it. Most readers will not be familiar with the German title and will find it confusing. Compare with Thomas Mann for example, which mentions The Magic Mountain in the infobox not Der Zauberberg. Vpab15 (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * UE is a policy on article titling, not on referring to titles within an article. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Still, the question remains. Why use the uncommon foreign title instead of the one most readers will be familiar with? Vpab15 (talk) 15:25, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Simple: we aren't. The article uses both, not one instead of the other. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The article has many instances of just the German titles being used. Vpab15 (talk) 15:42, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, all are introduced bilingually. If there are specific titles for which that is not the case, feel free to point them out. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict:) As explained on your talk page, we authors of this article decided (in 2012) to use the titles as Kafka wrote them, with their common translations. Once title and translation are established, you can use the title alone without the translation, as we also don't repeat links. Kafka simply didn't write in English. Compare Balzac which was used as an example. Or Rossini. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The articles for Balzac or Rossini use the titles that are more common in English sources. In the case of Kafka, that is English titles. We have WP:UE and the MOS that apply to titles of works in foregin languages. It is true that they mostly refer to the titles of the Wikipedia articles themselves. But the same applies to titles used in other articles: we should use what most readers are familiar with. Vpab15 (talk) 16:28, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Please don't say "should be" as if your way to see this was the only possible way. Our article for Rossini's master piece is The Barber of Seville, but when talking about what Rossini composed, it's not historic, and our featured article correctly says "He composed Il barbiere di Siviglia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Class photograph
Researching Kafka's classmate Emil Utitz, I came upon a class photograph showing both: (you may need an archive.org account). Am I right to assume that this image has no known author and won't become free until 2028, 70 years after the first known publication? —Kusma (talk) 09:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * No idea, but it's not the greatest pic anyway. You could use the page as a ref, perhaps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The book was published in Germany in 1958, but the picture is from c. 1898 so the German side of the copyright is already covered by Template:PD-old-assumed. The only question is the US copyright (required to upload at either Commons or enwiki). Unless we can show that  the picture was free in Germany in 1996 (in which case PD-URAA applies), the picture is protected for 95 years after publication date per Hirtle chart. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  03:08, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Translation difficulties exaggerated, not unusual, irrelevant, let's delete
Absurd. When is translation easy? Whenever one has to deal with colloquialisms, or with poetry of any sort, when the meaning of words is vague or multifaceted, there's difficulty. We're here describing most of the world's literature. That's a universal translation problem, not something unique to "translating Kafka into English." Want something you can translate universally? I give you Euclid's "Elements."

As for the other specific "difficulty" mentioned here, the sentence construction with the verb at the end, there are at least two problems with this complaint. One is that, were it true, it wouldn't matter, because understanding a text isn't a matter of the psychological impact of your first reading of a sentence. As in, "oh, THAT's the verb, how that changes the experience of the story!" It might be true for inexperienced readers, middle schoolers for example, and it's certainly a problem with comedy because it messes up the timing, but that's it. The second problem (see my use of the subjunctive, above) is that it's not true. English is flexible enough for the verb to come at the end. See Shakespeare for a thousand examples. Yes, in the hands of most translators it will sound awkward, but that just means you need a better translation or a more intelligent reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.232.191.16 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Doctor of Law Date
In the section "Education" it says "Kafka was awarded the degree of Doctor of Law on 18 July 1906" with note "Some sources list June (Murray) as Kafka's graduation month and some list July (Brod).[42][43]".

I think this can now be settled to 18 June (not July) 1906 – thanks to scanned and indexed university records offered by the Charles University of Prague –, as follows.

[1] Registry books of the German University in Prague, inventory No. 3, Registry book of doctors of the German Charles-Ferdinand University in Prague/German University in Prague (1904–1924), page 42

Gives 18 June 1906 — in almost perfect handwriting, plus with consistent dates for other graduates on the same page, as well as on the previous and following page.

A plausible indication why a date of "18 July" might have been mistaken for the date of promotion by Max Brod might be found in the three other records for Kafka in the same archive, as follows:

All three are records of exams that Kafka took also at the German Charles-Ferdinand University between 1903 and 1906.

[2] Faculty of Law of the German University in Prague, Books of examination protocols of State Examination Commisions, inventory No. 75, State Scientific State Examination Commision at the German Charles-Ferdinand University in Prague (1905-1906), page 8595

[3] Faculty of Law of the German University in Prague, Books of examination protocols of State Examination Commisions, inventory No. 44, Judicial State Examination Commision at the German Charles-Ferdinand University in Prague (1905-1907), page 10639

[4] Faculty of Law of the German University in Prague, Books of examination protocols of State Examination Commisions, inventory No. 10, Juridical Historical State Examination Commision at the German Charles-Ferdinand University in Prague (1902-1903), page 12789

[2] is dated 22 March 1906. It lists that Kafka studied at the university from winter semester 1901/1902 until summer semester 1905.

[3] is dated 23 (November?) 1905. Besides also listing that Kafka studied at the university during the same semesters, it lists that Kafka passed the "Rechtshistorische Staatsprüfung" (state exam of law history) on 18 July 1903.

Note that this would be a date of "18 July", but not for the doctorate, instead for an earlier exam.

[4] is the document for that exam, dated consistently 18 July 1903.

To search for these records yourself, go to https://is.cuni.cz/webapps/archiv/public/?lang=en then click the link to the search for particular names and there enter e.g. Kafka's birth date or name...

Direct search link that yielded the above 4 records.

I propose to change the date given in the main text to "18 June 1906" (and to add a reference to the new source – in whichever way makes most sense, no specific suggestion how/which one(s)). Xphi (talk) 13:41, 25 May 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xphi (talk • contribs) 10:47, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It makes sense to me, and you can do that yourself. I am busy today but will check later. - Or you wait. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have just submitted a corresponding change, but since this is my first edit, I am not sure if I got it all formally right (technically and in terms of conventions).
 * Besides changing the month in the main text, I changed the note to "Records of the university lists June as Kafka's graduation month, as well was some secondary sources (Murray), while Brod lists July, possibly having mistaken the date with the one of an earlier exam three years earlier, 18 July 1903." and added the above four web sources. Xphi (talk) 07:48, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

personality - AVPD
would kafka’s personality be likened to one suffering from an Avoidant Personality? he would meet the criteria and be diagnosed if born today. Teodoir (talk) 12:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * We should probably not measure him with today's diagnoses, and also everything in the article needs a solid independent reliable source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Lost material in the intro
I'd find it fitting to mention the fact that much of what Kafka wrote and didn't burn has been lost or left unpublished in other ways (see the drama that happened after Brod's death). Synotia (talk) 19:32, 8 November 2022 (UTC)