Talk:Fraternitas Saturni

edits
I completly reviewed and enhanced the article in the last weeks, based mostly on the information given by Stephen Flowers. Also I consulted several german publications, but tried to cite by the information vailable in english. -- Darkravenwise (talk) 11:33, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It's completely ok to cite German publications, citations don't have to be English language. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 14:23, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I took out an exclaimation mark in main body of text. simonzer0 11:11 am 11-23-2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.95.64.254 (talk) 17:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

As in the article pointed out Eugen Grosche (Gregorius) was founding father and first grandmaster of FS. The modern author "Konstantinos" however, is not a member, nor was he ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.199.99 (talk) 07:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Largest german magical brotherhood?
Dear Rodneyorpheus,

you asked for citation of the claim, that in the 1950´s the FS was regarded as the largest german magical brotherhood. Fact is, that there is no other known working order in that time. The OTO was out of function in Germany (P. Koenig has documented this very well, even if his commentaries are more or less useless), and no other brotherhood has left any signs in history. But the FS had documented around 100 active members in 1957, the time of its installation as "Grand-Lodge" (vgl. publications by F. Haack, P. Koenig, and the FS itself). This dwindeled in the following years, especially after Gregorius´ death, but the claim can be made for the 1950.

For the actual FS I have deleted the claim. Instead I repeated the statement from the german WP-page that the membership doubled with the incorporation of the GAG into the FS, as I don´t have information about the membership scale of the other orders in Germany. Greetings -- Darkravenwise (talk) 11:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no such statement on the German WP page and the German language reference you cited does not state it either. I question your good faith. Denial (talk) 16:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * For the time being I have removed the contentious claim.--Rodneyorpheus (talk) 11:06, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Ups, wrong link! The correct link would be: "http://fraternitas.de/hist-faqtrad.htm" (last point), instead of http://fraternitas.de/hist-hist5.htm. But it´s really common knowledge, that the FS merged with the GAG. The FS claims it in: Fraternitas Saturni, Saturn Gnosis Vol. III, No. 1 (Fraternitas Saturni 2008), S. 23-29. You can check it further in the books of "Frater Oriphiel", where he (as a member of both organisations) describes this merging, f.e. Frater Oriphiel, Magische Einweihungspfade (Bohmeier Verlag 2005), S. 128 - Stichpunkt "Fraternitas Saturni". Further link away from self-potrayal concerning the Lodge GAG would be: http://www.agape-thelema.de/szeneberichte/54-in-nomine-demiurgi-saturn/180-communitas-saturni-a-gag. -- Darkravenwise (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Btw. Denial, you wrote: "There is no such statement on the German WP page". But of course it is! I cite: "Zu ihrem 75-jährigen Bestehen (2003) vereinigte sich die Großloge Fraternitas Saturni mit der „Großloge Gregor A. Gregorius", die von "Großmeister Immanuel" (Mitglied der FS seit Oktober 1955, Orient Berlin) gegründet wurde. Diese brachte drei Ortslogen in die Fraternitas ein. Der Name Fraternitas Saturni wurde nach dem Zusammenschluss beibehalten. Durch diesen verdoppelte sich faktisch die Mitgliederzahl der ältesten Saturnloge. Traditionsreiche Ortslogen wie Hamburg und Berlin wurden wiederbelebt." (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternitas_Saturni#Weblinks_.28Eigendarstellungen.29). Better read correctly, before you question other peoples "good faith". -- Darkravenwise (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It is not relevant whether it's on teh German page or not. References must be to third-party sources. One Wikipedia article cannot be used as a reference to another.--Rodneyorpheus (talk) 11:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I know, I know - just wanted to defend myself against the statement of Denial. The citing is done correctly... -- Darkravenwise (talk) 11:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Rating
How does the rating work? Shouldn´t the quality scale in the WikiProjects Secret Societies and Thelema to be rated higher, maybe with an "B"? Compared to - let´s say the article about the "Illuminates of Thanateros"... -- Darkravenwise (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Witht he work that's been done on this article I'd say it's gone up to C class now, and will be amending the Thelema rating appropriately. For more detail see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Thelema/Assessment --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The "secret knowledge of the OTO"
Dear Rodneyorpheus,

how do you define "flimsy evidence"? Even if the O.T.O. don´t like it, Gregorius was in fact an Initiate of the O.T.O. as well as Tränker or Rudolf Steiner. What he knew or not can´t be proved now, but he had the right to make this claim... -- Darkravenwise (talk) 15:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm an initiate of OTO, but if I claim the moon is made of blue cheese it neither proves that it is factually correct or that OTO agrees with me, unless I can produce statements from NASA and OTO to back it up. I know this claim has been made in a couple of places, but until there is documentation to back up the claim, it either needs to be removed or qualified in the way I did in this article. Personally from what I know of both Orders, I think it's nonsense, but my personal opinion doesn't matter here. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * So an acceptable statement had to be backed up by Initiates of FS 18° and OTO IX°, who exchange their knowledge? That seems to be a quite impossible task, doesn´t it? Especially as the "secret knowledge" (whatever that shall be) of the Califat-OTO today might not be the same of the OTO from 1926, Tränker initiated Gregorius into... -- Darkravenwise (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * For the time being I have removed the contentious claim. -- Darkravenwise (talk) 15:38, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Page-Name
For reasons unknown to me, the article is named "Brotherhood of Saturn", instead of "Fraternitas Saturni". How can this be changed? -- Darkravenwise (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * This has been corrected. We do not translate the official names of organizations in titles. Yworo (talk) 20:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)