Talk:Fred Phelps/Archive 7

Death
Nathan Phelps just confirmed his father was dieing right now. --76.105.96.92 (talk) 15:33, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a huge difference between being near death and dead, but it has been noted in the article. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 16:04, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * No need to rush. A coroner report and a death certificate will come in time, if this is true. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Once he goes, be it soon or 20 years from now, have there been any indications that there might be an organized protest at his funeral? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:43, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not that I have seen, but it would be counter-productive to protest at the funeral of someone who made that a living. Besides, George Takei said it best in this post. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 17:35, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Ironically, George's post demonstrates a true Christian attitude. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:37, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If there are such events, I believe that they would be worthy of inclusion in this article.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Such events would be worthy of inclusion if they are significantly covered by reliable sources. Ivanvector (talk) 01:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, my question is answered. Thank you all. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 16:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

He died on Wednesday the 19th. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:10, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Could someone correct the date of his death? He died late Wednesday night 19th of March 2014, according to this and many other sources: http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/Family-Member-Confirms-Fred-Phelps-Has-Died-251212461.html User:Thomsterdam 18:39, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Died of natural causes, not "cognitive" heart failure (there is no such thing). ace42292 21:21, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Though the news of his death may sadden some, it goes without saying that it will have the opposite effect on many others who decried his and his church's actions. An example of this is clearly noted in the following blog: www.fark.com/comments/8187500/God-hates-Freds?startid=89860453 User: Wiggins Hat — Preceding undated comment added 00:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The CNN writeup referred to him as "the most hated man in America". Oddly enough, they used to call atheist activist Madeline O'Hare "the most hated woman in America". Both examples are probably exaggerations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Size of family
I put the number of his various family members (and not their individual names) in the infobox because it is in the article and is an important part of the story – i.e. the extreme size of his family and how the church is composed of most of them. The selection of children who were named are mentioned in the article, too. The infobox should stay as it was. —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 13:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I added his 54 grandchildren as it is an impressive number and a large portion of them make up the size of the church. While the infobox is a summary of the article, you have to be careful as to not clutter it up with information that users will look at and not know what they are looking at. Adding non-notable family members and children will just add names that noone is familiar with. Thus why it should be notable family members only. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

"Gay rights supporters denounced him as a producer of anti-gay propaganda"
This is insinuating, as fact, that only gay rights supporters saw Phelps as rabidly anti-gay. It's also rather buried down in the fourth paragraph while we note he had four failed runs for office in the first paragraph, for which he is not widely known. As numerous sources, including television reports, and documentaries attest, he is primary known for his anti-gay antics, which galvanized many in the LGBT movement, especially when he targeted Matthew Shepard's funeral, and then brought renewed attention when the church started targeting US service members. I think the entire lead needs to be reworked to put due weight in encapsulating his story. Likely the avalanche of obituaries will give some guidance. Sportfan5000 (talk) 12:38, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that the lede reads far too neutral about his actions, given how widely regarded as despicable they were. I tried to work in a line from the NYT article about being loathed by those across the political and religious spectrum, but couldn't make it not break the existing flow. —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 12:49, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Articles are supposed to be written neutral. Avoid stating opinions as facts and vise versa. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:04, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we can be NPOV, and still express how he has been characterized. Let's see what the sources offer. Sportfan5000 (talk) 13:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a fact that he was widely known -- and reviled -- for his anti-gay stance, and if you read carefully, that's what's being said here. -- 96.247.231.243 (talk) 19:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The lead is not terribly long, so I think an overhaul is easily achievable. Let's look for obituaries from the most reliable sources and use those as a guideline for reworking the material. Sportfan5000 (talk) 13:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a few good ones coming out - so to speak. this one from The Australian is obviously written in the US for a global audience and seems to be a good example of balance. They refer to his troubles in recent weeks, but no source is given. I think if we track down the source for anything controversial and ensure it isn't just one family member chewing sour grapes we should be right. --Pete (talk) 19:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * FWIW, you're misusing the phrase "sour grapes". -- 96.247.231.243 (talk) 19:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Excommunication
I'm not seeing a lot of WP:RS on this. The Huffington Post's source turns out to be estranged son Nate, and the only other sources we list are bogs and such. If we don't actually have anything solid, i think we should lose it.--Pete (talk) 19:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Protest bans
I changed the language of that section slightly. Indiana for one does NOT ban "protests." The law makes "disorderly conduct" within 500 feet of a funeral a felony. There is a huge difference between disorderly conduct, an actionable offense, and protest, a form of speech. I believe several other states have used similar language. Banning protest would violate 1A, as SCOTUS has ruled. States are well within their authority to define disorderly conduct and prosecute on a sworn complaint. It's a legal difference, but an important one.Mzmadmike (talk) 01:39, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Education
...something is inaccurate here, i.e. 2 yrs or 3 semesters @ Bob Jones & then 2 semesters more @ Praire Bible to 'complete his Freshman' year...that is 5 or 6 semesters. Did he fail all or most classes @ BJU ? The IMDB article cited has also changed. Peace is contagious (talk) 16:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Question
Should there be a mention on the fact that a lot of people and some groups are actually celebrating his death..?--186.213.183.68 (talk) 02:02, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it is irrelevant, and not encyclopedia worthy.Boris Crépeau (talk) 02:15, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * See Death_and_funeral_of_Margaret_Thatcher --Pete (talk) 05:10, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If celebrating a death and protests at funerals is not encyclopedia worthy then why does this article exist? It makes perfect sense to include a section talking about how his organization has asked others to respect the friends and family trying to grieve by not protesting funerals when his entire existence and the reason for his notability was that he refused to do the same for others. C 1776 M Talk 09:48, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Theological Views
I noticed the page said that Fred Phelps held to equal ultimacy, and links to a dead link (the debate with John Rankin). In the debate, Fred never claimed to hold to equal ultimacy, yet expresses the view "God Almighty makes some willing and he leads others into sin, that’s Calvinism". This viewpoint should be classified more accurately as double-predestination, the concept advanced in the "Doctrine of Absolute Predestination", which was a document he mentioned in his debate with John Rankin. Equal ultimacy is a type of double-predestination, but an extreme form of in which salvation and damnation are symmetrical and means that God reprobated the reprobate in the exact same way as he elected the elect. I don't think Phelps had ever advocated for this type of position, although he did advocate for double-predestination in general. If he advocated for equal ultimacy, he would have said something along the lines of "God leads some to heaven in the exact same way as he leads some to hell", or another phrase implying perfect symmetry in predestination. Because he never said such statements nor explicitly stated he believed in equal ultimacy, I believe this phrase should be replaced with double predestination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.19.99 (talk) 10:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Fred Phelps Political Affiliation- Democratic Party
Shouldn't that be listed as "Former Democrat"? He actively campaigned against Democrats including President Obama. From my experience, the charter of any political party forbids openly campaigning against endorsed candidates. 12:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhindin (talk • contribs)
 * That's not how party membership works in the United States. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  20:48, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually he's run in 6 Democrat primaries not 5. --98.220.198.49 (talk) 05:55, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * An editor has just switched his party to Republican without providing any sourcing. Unless a good current source is found, can we really say which party he's in? This is a private matter unless serving/running in/for a partisan office, or openly affiliating as such. I'm going to edit this to a Democratic affiliation based on his prior campaigns. Boogerpatrol (talk) 22:54, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Your "experience" is irrelevant on numerous levels. -- 96.247.231.243 (talk) 01:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

hilarious how all the liberals are editing about the democrat party affiliation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.92.193 (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Democratic section, due weight?
I won't imply that it's there for a political reason, but the section on the Democratic party seems a bit larger than due weught would suggest. I'm not sure how it's entirely pertinent to be there to begin with...Phelps certainly had interactions and views on democrats, republicans, and everything else. The majority of the sources and history regarding Phelps is based on his WBC insanity. That he ran for office is certainly notable...his views on various democratic candidates seems superfluous. I would recommend changing the section to refer to his attempts at office, and removing the non-notable material about his views on Gore, Hillary, etc. I am assuming good faith, but this gives the appearance of impropriety, even if no one is trying to push POV/guilt by association.76.238.186.96 (talk) 23:37, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and I removed all the unsourced content in that section. Bearian (talk) 17:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Trimming out WBC specific content?
Karpouzi (talk) made this set of changes, which I've rolled back until we have some discussion. I agree that the removed content is overlong, and that since it is covered in depth in other articles, is not really needed in a biographical entry. I think that blanket remove, though, is going a bit too far. So, how can we trim, while making note of Phelps' involvement? TechBear &#124; Talk &#124; Contributions 14:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. --76.105.96.92 (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Undone. Let's discuss what can be deleted and what should remain before making wholesale cuts. TechBear  &#124; Talk &#124; Contributions 00:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I have moved the content to subsections of "Church protest activities" without removing anything. Editors can then trim it down as they see fit. I agree it should be covered, but I think the main point we all agree on is that these legal issues should not have comprehensive primary sections in this bio article. Karpouzi (talk) 09:15, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

If there is sufficient noteworthy content the list of their protests could be made into its own article. 121.222.43.40 (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2015
The article says: 'Phelps died in 2013, after being in very poor health.' This is inconsistent with other dates on the page, which say he died 2014.

ab (talk) 19:33, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done thanks for catching that Cannolis (talk) 21:03, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2015
There are two errors on this page - Phelps wife died before him. The year is not reported but Nathan Phelps reported his demeanor changed after his wife's death. The Marjorie Simms-Phleps you have listed as his wife is actually his daughter. His wife was born in 1928 and went by the a.k.a Marge while his daughter goes by the name Margie.

Stevenwinkelman (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Kharkiv07 Talk  23:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Change cause of death?
Recently read that Phelps died from complications of AIDS. http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/03/fred-phelps-funeral/ Someone should consider changing the info in this article.StevieB5175 (talk) 15:02, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

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Theological Inspiration and Derision: Regarding "William Munsey"
I was curious when I came across the statement "Phelps viewed Arminianism (particularly the views of the Methodist theologian William Munsey) as a 'worse blasphemy and heresy than that heard in all filthy Saturday night fag bars in the aggregate in the world'." I'd never heard of William Munsey and I grew up in a family full of Arminian Methodists. I decided to search for him and found nothing particularly notable so I checked the Phelp's footnoted sermon and saw that he refered to him as "Elbert Munsey." Doing some additional searches I was able to find some information about the minister William Elbert Munsey, though it does not seem that he was a particularly notable figure in the development and propagation of Arminian theology. I don't know why Phelp's decided to single out Munsey in that sermon, but he did still the same. --Rex Diablo (talk) 15:33, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

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Website infobox
Since he was head of the organization, is it proper to include http://godhatesfags.com/ in the  param of infobox; or is this not done since the subject is deceased, and thus no longer representative of subject? -- dsprc   [talk]  11:55, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

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Posthumous Mariage Needlessly Politcal
Agree, indifference or hate. Leaving that on the wikipedia article makes wikipedia look like a political trash rag. We need to be better than that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.61.120.3 (talk) 08:08, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

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