Talk:Freddie and the Dreamers

Sections and References
I have added sections and references to the article. Capitalistroadster 16:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Date of birth?
Freddie Garrity died May 19 2006. The day of birth seems unclear. At wikipedia 14 November 1937 is given, but I found elsewhere 4th November 1940 and also 14 November 1940. Who knows the correct date? I think it is 14 November 1940. Harm Frielink 11:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The obituaries in the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph say he was 69, but virtually all the other reports say 65, and I've just watched the obituary on BBC1 Northwest which prominently gave his dates as 1940-2006, so I've been bold and edited the year in article. -- Arwel (talk) 17:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Several obituaries I read online stated categorically that he was 69 when he died, and that he was born 14 November 1936. I can think of several other 60s and early 70s music personalities who 'subtracted' a few years from their date of birth, and only many years later did we find out that they were actually between two and six years older than we had been led to believe! - Durajohnpatrick

Pic
Inserted a better picture with close-up faces to contrast with action pic. Placed it higher up to break up the block of text, but there is no ideal position which does not leave widows/orphans. Adjusted for consistency: all titles go in italics, all quotes go in "quotation marks", just look at any reference book. Also dates link [ []], and one day soon there will be articles for every song which was a US or UK Number 1, hence linking them now saves somebody the job of backtracking and changing them later. Why don't you write the article for this one?


 * Can someone who knows please complete the names to the faces in the picture caption. Lumos3 09:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Pete Birrell and Peter Birrell
I have moved here the following comment posted in the article by anon User:86.140.90.115. There seems to have been a confusion between band mamber Pete Birrell and the actor Peter Birrell who died in 2004. Lumos3 11:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Pete Birrel From Freddie And The Dreamers Is NOT dead as reported on this page he is alive and kicking sill in sunny Manchester, How do I know this you may be wondering? I used to be a member of Freddies band and at the funeral of Freddie I spoke to Derek Quinn who confirmed Pete was still alive though he couldn't attend Freds funeral through ill health. User:86.140.90.115.

Cleanup
This article has some serious opinion issues: remember we're writing an encylcopedia, not a music review. You're meant to be a neutral, objective observer and not a subjective critic. In light of that, I question the following:

"their show was probably more suited for the seaside show...than for a rock festival", "could make hit records of songs that other "serious" bands had turned down", "would probably sound unberably twee if delivered by a more 'earnest' singer", and the seemingly contradictory opinions of "The band did have musical ability, and at their peak of popularity were probably second only to the Beatles" yet "their inability to write their own material severely hobbled them".

Some sources cited here would go a long way towards lending credibility to statements that otherwise smell of WP:NPOV. 66.17.118.195 14:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have deleted all of the above. If someone wants to find some notable reviews of the band and add sourced information about their critical reception, that would be great, but this was just someone's opinion. Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 14:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Other
Great article everyone, Freddie Garrity was my great uncle and it was great to see such accurate information on him,  bit of info though after he retired from the music industry, he became a milkman until he officially retired at 65. Guru Larry 01:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

 The above statement isn't quite right. Freddie was a Milkman prior to Freddie And The Dreamers as well as brush salesman & engineer, Although the original Dreamers disbanded in 1972, Freddie Carried on preforming right up to 2001 with diferent line ups of Dreamers, including myself Mike Quinn, who was one of his last remaining Dreamers & was with him with the rest of his Dreamers when he fell ill on the plane returning home from America,after performing in the British invasion returns show at the Foxwood Resort Connecticut June 2000, which was televised for USA, and distributed on DVD, along with Peter Noone, Troggs, Searchers, Gerry & the Pacemakers Etc. We toured up to the end of February 2001 when Fred was instructed by doctors to retire from showbusiness, Freddie was indeed born in 1936 & died aged 69 May 19th 2006 a date I can't forget as it is my daughters birthday

Fair use rationale for Image:Freddygarrity.jpg
Image:Freddygarrity.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring
My attention has been drawn to this article. I notice that an edit war is in progress. This appears to revolve around two issues; a) whether phrasing should be 'later members' or 'last members' b) the addition of a number of external links. It is regrettable that there has been no discussion on this page for nearly five years since this is where disputes have to be resolved.

External links should only be added where they meet WP:EL. The default position is not having external links so the onus is on those adding external links to show that they meet this guideline. I also note that sourcing is substantially sub-standard. At a minimum all important or contentious statements and facts must be sourced. See WP:CITE. It is irrelevant that one of the editors claims first-hand knowledege - all such statements must be independently verifiable. It should be noted that neither 'Facebook' nor 'MySpace' constitute reliable sources.

What should now happen is that interested parties should table the key elements of the dispute on this page and seek resolution through discussion. If that does not happen, and the dispute continues, then I will fully protect this page to prevent editing, by anyone, until consensus on here is reached.

I should be happy to answer any queries. TerriersFan (talk) 23:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems that there is some kind of rivalry between past members of the group, lets not forget this page is supposed to be about Freddie and the Dreamers, The recording group from the 60s, and that alone, all other members were not CONTRACTUAL members therfore have no bearing or realavance to this page, Link to external pages of later members are also irrelavant, and have no bearing on the history of this group,
 * Mature adults supposed to be Profesional musicians acting like spoilt children, This page should be soley relavent to 5 members & 5 members ONLY, Garrity, Birrel, Quinn, Crewdson & Dwyer, No one else, you others didn't record or contribute anything to the music of the group, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.109.36 (talk) 11:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Respectfully there are members of the band who have spent over 30 years .Some of the originals only 5years.There are oyjer members who did record on lables as Freddie and The Dreamers.It is this that is subjective.The name should not imply certain people but all who contributed to the legacy.Even to this day.There is no war broken out here it is a simple fact that those of you who do not have the true facts are editing.I have spoken to all band members concerned and we agreed to leave the editing alone.I suggest you do the same.thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 14:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * While the story of the original group is the main one, the later years can be included too, but they need to be sourced. Rothorpe (talk) 02:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for this.If this is the case for later members to be included then the phrase last band should be removed and all those who have performed in Freddie and The Dreamers be allowed to be included.Respectfully the last band where only around 5 years.Between 1972 and 1996 other long term musicians performed including recording new songs. It has been stated that sourcing is required.The internet links of myspace and www band sites that have pictures of Freddie and the Dreamers of these band members performing at Freddie and The Dreamer concerts.Qualified evidence. My name has been the subject of a campaign to be removed by remote users to this site.As a valid member of the band i wish it to be included on the site.Forth with please.A section should be drawn up for former band members. Lastly.....why do you insist there has been some type of editing war?.....not the case at all.All i have done is replaced my name when it has be removed by erratic behavior of others.Normally not other former band members either.Without explanation. signed EamonnMK — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 04:26, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Lets get one thing clear right now! it wasn't me editing the page, I did it once and removed all later members causing the page to be locked, yes that was me, as for any other edits look closer to home for your answers, mainly the last backing group, yet another set of people trying to work off the name Freddie and the dreamers, do you really think people are that gullible? Birrel Quinn Dwyer,Crewdson should be the only recognised members. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.101.73 (talk) 09:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Page now protected
I notice that discussion has started; this is all good; please continue to discuss the edits. Meanwhile, since edit warring has resumed, I have protected the page. The version of the page that I have protected is not, in any sense, an 'approved' version. When agreement has been reached on the key editing elements I will lift the protection. TerriersFan (talk) 19:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Its evident that the purpatrator responsable for attacking and removing links etc from this site is plain for everyone to see, just check the IP numbers in the history and check back on all the edits, The Kasuals always remain or get replaced along with the new dreamers, it's not rocket science just basic detective work. really anyone wanting to edit these pages should be required to create and account to stop this MINDLESS vandalism of this page. Grow up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.109.36 (talk) 11:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree entirely with the above comments.Fred's last band should be here as all of the others. I have spoken in the past to other band members and it is not them who create this problem. Clearly TN Dreamers,The Kasuals and Freddy's Dreamers members have been taken brunt of others deleting without any regard. This is a great piece of musical heritage which some of us continue to uphold in performance.Mindless editing. Agreed........suggestion...... before you can edit you must be a verified member. Come out from behind your bearded cloak.EamonnMK — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 11:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I have noticed all links have been removed with the exeption of one. Is there any reason why? and why only the link for the Kasuals remain? This group / Band have no bearing or relavance to Freddie and the dreamers. yet this link always remains after all others have either been deleted or edited. or maybe I have looked at the editing history wrong, No I didn't think so! These other group members as you put it, did they have any chart hits or contract with EMI? No thought not as I recall the last time F&TDs had a top 10 hit was in 1965. Ok they might have recorded new material etc but non published for release or any chart success. Garrity owned the name lock stock and barrel after the origional group split. The group are known for the few hits they had back in the 60s also their contribution to the pop world. Maybe last/later members should be included, but all irrelevant links remove or it ends up a free for all to advertise, it doesn't matter who was what where or when, they are not now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.104.190 (talk) 07:29, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Addressed to the above.Respectfully sir....some of your comments are anthorpogenically far removed. Freddie and the Dreamers had other hit songs all over the world.With other line up members.A singer in a rock and roll band to be one of just of the top of my head.As far as owning any name is also irrelevant.A grey area as other band members and their decendants have a right.......Here..... is about a matter of record and the continued legacy.I do agree it is not a place for all and sundry to advertise.Given any evidence to support the case of a band member whether past or present then links are important with qualified evidence.Hence any dreamers website with pictures of the band performing with Freddie Garrity should qualify.Your writings dismiss members of this legacy all to quickly.Some have spent over 30 years performing under the name. From my half there is no oneupmanship at all......it is a matter of record.Shall we now have a section for former members and their documented evidented links placed at the foot of the page.Sensible and logical. Diplomacy and being polite should be the agenda.EamonnMK — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 08:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

As a so called member you history of the band isn't too good. "I am a singer in a 60s band" was never published or charted. Yes it was recorded and performed by other members on the cabaret scene & penned by Garrity, you say other members performed with the group for more than 30 yrs, excuse me who? the Dreamers? they might have been performing under the name. But were constantly contested by Garrity for using the name, while F&TDS were active. Those 2 members were dismissed for gross misconduct. just how long were you a member? not more or up to 30 yrs The origional group split between 1969/1972 Garrity went solo for many yrs, appearing on shows such as wheel tappers etc, & performing the club circuit, Garrity retired in 2000 so do the math, in between those yrs there have been at least 40 different personel line up, Non of where given an equal share of the earnings, neither were you, you were all just a backing group supporting Garrity under the name Freddie and the dreamers. although he called you dreamers on stage, you, nor any other backing group member had no claim to the name, Garrity knew he couldn't go alone on the 60s circuit, he could be difficult to work with hence the high turnover of personnel, one last note why does everone presume I'm a sir? maybe I know more than I'm letting on or maybe I'll wait until someone slips up. This debate will continue to raise it's uglyness, the page should just be of the original group, who Made all the hits, oh and who ever altered the Album "you were mad for me" to "You were made for me" please revert it back to "Mad", again.and do your research & history before changing/editing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.104.190 (talk) 09:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment.Shall we talk in a civilsied manner.You continually.... appear... to be attacking the page. Their is no ugliness.....wiki is about record and facts.Not personal opinions.

Fact Mr Garrity dismissed three members of that particular band you refer to.Not two.Fact they had just completed around 49 nights of bookings in 52 days.Tired band i would say.Given no notice to quit either.Not defending anyone at all here but its fact.Still a Dreamers band though...that is a fact.Backing band or not a Dreamers band like many others.

If you examine other band pages...eg Thin Lizzy......it gives original band members and then later members.This is the norm for wiki.Why cannot this be done here.

When and who is irrelevent but it is a matter of  record. Consider this......we should respect the legacy of the band.I found Mr Garrity a decent good man to work with, contrary other remarks made by yourself on this page..that is my opinion...you may disagree.

We continue the legacy of the band to present day with others .As former members we are entitled to do this .Whether you agree or not.That is a fact.A matter of record. EamonnMK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 07:23, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

To close.......respectfully......i with others have contributed to this page only to have at differing times others delete names facts ect without just cause in our opinion. To the user IP 86.159.104.190 We are open and not on the faceless internet......come out into the open please.We are not here to argue but to debate. As members of wiki we have the same right as yourself to edit or include.Of course with qualified evidence. Ours is qualified being former members.Can you explain your status and your qualified sources please.Sitting in judgement as God is not debating..... your comment...........maybe I know more than I'm letting on or maybe I'll wait until someone slips up..................Academically not a qualified source for Wiki.Your opinion.

The Dreamers as a band have toured for over 30 years that is a fact.....whether you agree or not they are The Dreamers is your own opinion.As a matter of record they were in Freddie and The Dreamers....as where Freddy's Dreamers and members of The Kasuals....as myself and many others......all former members of Freddie and The Dreamers. All factual and all a matter of record. respectfully. EamonnMK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 08:40, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Please note that you can sign your posts by typing ~ four times. Rothorpe (talk) 13:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

As for attacking the page, complete nonsense, I'm asking valid questions, Thin Lizzy as you mentioned are all contractual signed up band members, you sound like a MP always diverting the question & moving off topic, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.101.73 (talk) 09:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC) Did you or any other member have a signed contract with Freddie &TDs?

The Dreamers, The New Dreamers, Freddies Dreamers, are all just dreamers, they'll never have or acheive what was created in the 60 with the original group & have no place on this page, I sorry you find it hard to accept, why dont you satrt you own wiki page & link to this one? simple —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.101.73 (talk) 09:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Respectfully i am sure everyone here is glad that you in your own words above now agree that we are all Dreamers..I was contracted to Kennedy Street, Freddie and The Dreamers management.As a member of Freddie and The Dreamers.On  contract. All members of Freddie and The Dreamers where under contract. Your comment about acceptance on this page......we have no place here.....wiki is a matter of record.We were all part of Freddie and The Dreamers.That is a fact.A matter of record with supporting evidence.

My reasons for a leave of abscence from the band ( Freddie and The Dreamers ) ......my wife was diagnosed with cancer.That is a private matter for my family and i. You with others should respect that.Nothing to do with this page and not known to anyone at the time.

Postdate myself with other famous 60's bands tour the country raising money for cancer researchUK and Prostrate cancer.

About time you come clean as to who you are.Making unsigned comments has no validation.

In the past week we can all now clearly see why The Freddie and The Dreamers page has been subject to unwarranted attack without no justification.Just because it is your own opinion does not mean you are correct.Again we are please you now recognise with your comments.... that we are Dreamers... and a part of the legacy.I, nor any other would ever detract from the original band and their achievements or would ever claim to do so.

We are all members of the band.On contracts.All part of the legacy and will always be.A fact.

Projection or assumption is not factual evidence.

.....from my point of view i have clearly stated a valid documented case with evidence.Your view and opinion demonstrated here is unsupported, without contributing any evidence. You hide behind unsigned comments.Clearly cannot be taken with any validation.A fact.

Hard to debate with the invisible man. Respectfully EamonMK.

I see you edided the page and removed some of my comments as to why you should be included on this page. You had no written contract through Danny Betesh,( something to hide or can't answer the comment truthfuly) all corresponence was done through Garrity. as they arranged travel visas etc etc, as for being a "Dreamer" as you call it I was refering to it in the sleep sence your just dreaming of something you never had.if you had a drawn up contract as did the original members Legally your entitled to as share of royalties Name etc,YOU ARE NOT! thats why Garrity contested the Dreamers legally for using the name. I'm not asking for validation on my part, I know facts, and things about the group you can only dream of knowing, How long were you a Dreamer? since you deleted my last request(dont tell me the admin edited this question, I know they didnt).You go off topic too many times changing and avoiding questions, Dream on I have nothing to prove, you have to prove to the admin why you NEED to be added to the page, Hey lets invite the Reg coats experience on here ad dreamers they backed garrity as dreamers, as did Colin r Price with the Rapiers, Most people I know are embarrased to be associated as being members, Your clutching in desperation for something you wanted but never got, Ok I accept you might have backed the guy, dosent give you claim to the name or inclusion of the page, start your own and link to this one. Let it go, I dont see anyone else on here contesting this debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.101.73 (talk) 09:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you tell us all then in your chrystal ball why you hide behind faceless comments.To date you have supplied no evidence and no identity as to who you are.Therefore any comment you make has no actual bearing here.No evidence.Freddie Garrity never actually went to court over any Dreamers name.MYTH. All Freddie and The Dreamers had contracts with Kennedy Street.Just because you don't like that does not mean its not factual.You assumed yet again contracts of royalites....again assumptions but factual performance royalites off recordings is factual.Performance royalites. It is time for you to stop acting as GOD.You have no evidence.You are avoiding and detracting the main reason for this page with your intimidating writing.I am sure other former Dreamers will add here.Given time. You rebuke all too quickly.You assume other former members where embarrassed .NO evidence. Your words ...you know things....balderdash really.....no evidence.

The page is called Freddie and The Dreamers.All former members would be included here.That is wiki not your point of view. Your highly reflective in assumptions and have never mention,demonstrate or supplied evidence.Clearly in the readings you have no case at all.Come out of hiding.I doubt that you will.....and we all know the reason why sir, and we all know who you are to.Did you think we didn't. I suggest Sir.....you let it go.Shall we give others a chance to comment here. Can you actually do that.... stand back, give room to others.I have.Now so should you.Watching this space for the invisible man to appear. signed EamonnMK — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 12:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Where is your evidence? a few scrawny photos, that group could be the Reg Coates Experience for all I know. as they backed too freddie shall we call them dreamers too? you have no proof, and this is how you spell crystal ball. What about the Rapiers? are you adding them as well, you really do have a bee in your bonnet, I have nothing to prove why do you keep asking me for proof, I have no desire to be include on this page, why should I? you feel you have the GOD given right which you dont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.101.73 (talk) 15:22, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Cold hearted orb....He doth to... complain too much and then eventually showed his colours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.163.67 (talk) 15:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I read all this with great sadness and despair, because whilst all the names that have been mentioned on here are quite rightfully a part of Freddies' history. The truth of the matter is that the DREAMERS mantle that was bestowed upon them was only their true right whilst they stayed with FREDDIE. He and he alone had the rights to the name.

Whoever said on here that any of the Dreamers were just his backing band and nothing else are completely wrong. Freddie bestowed the gift of the name to each and every musician who played with him and considered it to be quite official as long as you stayed in the Garrity clan. Many ex members have taken it upon themselves to use this name after they had either abused Freddies'friendship or for whatever other reason left the band.

Oficially they were no longer Dreamers and have to this day absolutely no right to use this name

I know all this because I was in the last remaining group of Dreamers who actually never left or were never asked to leave by Freddie. He told me this himself emphatically and He considered us to be his official Dreamers up to when he died in 2006. And With his full permission in the past we have tried in vain to work as The Dreamers.

We gave this up a long time ago because there is too much confusion and misuse of this bands name.

I have plenty of physical evidence to support this should anyone wish to see it.

In fact he gave me his own personal Guild guitar and it is signed to me by him inside as his best friend which I consider the highest honour.

I ran the band for him in his last years and so I consider it my right to be included on this page.

There are only two sets of Official Dreamers and that is the original founder members and the last remaining set who worked and recorded with him on his last album which was commercially published and produced.

Some evidence which you can see immediately is a plaque that Freddie sold in the millenium year at all his concerts and signed for the people here......

http://www.box.net/shared/lxbi1k6fuo

I wil not be taking part in any more of this nonsence as I respect Freddie too much If anybody wishes to dicuss any of these issues privately with me or wish to see any of my evidence

you can contact me on my email address nickfoti@live.com  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickfoti (talk • contribs) 17:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Well said Nick i agree with you entirely.Hence why we never used the name The Dreamers either .As a matter of respect for Fred the band and the legacy.Last comment on this. EamonnMK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.163.67 (talk) 08:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Lastly......the page is for Freddie and The Dreamers and its history.Original, former and last members.Sections for each then the matter is resolved.As to who is official is not the issue but to whom played and performed in the band.Then there is the question about other..... The Dreamers... bands...if they were in Fred's band then, band names suggests, that band names have to have that particular person heading.Eg ( Mike Penders Searchers ).There are plenty of cases of this. Matter now closed for me.EamonnMK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.163.67 (talk) 09:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Who put you in charge of what can and can't be added to the page? you have no right or relavance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.101.73 (talk) 11:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

never mind being dreamers, youre all just like a bunch of silly little screaming schoolgirls, for goodness sake grow up !!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Can someone remove all this nonsence  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.199.220 (talk) 10:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC) I can't believe what I'm reading, the reading on here does not look good for general public, Nick, I couldn't have put it better myself. I just hope Christine doesnt get to read this what can only be described as S**TE. as said above Grow up, Nick knew Fred better than all of us. Mike Quinn...

Respectfully to all.If you edit and delete others off here because you think you are right then the page will always have problems.I don't think anyone has right over others.The page should be for all who where members of the band.The last band or so called official band is not what matters but those over the years contributed with the band.The last band guy should not be editing and changing but it should state former band members.Respectfully you have stated that you could not use the name The Dreamers because of band name confusion.You have brought that with others to this page.As for using Kasuals it is too familiar with the other famous 60's band.That is also confusing. I am not saying who is right or who is wrong but nobody should edit others off the page just because they disagree.There is a bias by the last band that is unfair on the others.All former members please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.211.117 (talk) 17:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

While the story of the original group is the main one, the later years can be included too, but they need to be sourced. Rothorpe (talk) 02:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs)

Mature adults supposed to be Profesional musicians acting like spoilt children, This page should be soley relavent to 5 members & 5 members ONLY, Garrity, Birrel, Quinn, Crewdson & Dwyer, No one else, you others didn't record or contribute anything to the music of the group —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 20:57, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

An extract from Freddies' autobiography. "Over the next few years musician's would come and go, until finally I settled on a band that was formed by my very good friend and rhythm guitarist Nick Foti who is a sixties freak, as are the rest of the band. And I can't speak more highly than to say that at long last the new Dreamers from the Blackpool and Burnley area are an absolute pleasure to work with. And although there have been many musicians over the years, it seems that with this band, we have one thing in common and that's a love for sixties music. I also have to say these lads musically and vocally, are for sure the best yet".

"The new Dreamers were Nick Foti -Rhythm Guitar, Simon Clarke - Keyboards, Alan Edmondson - Drums and Ray Barlow - Bass Guitar. Ray Barlow has since retired and bought a large hotel and restaurant in Kirkham on the outskirts of Blackpool, Who said I didn't pay good wages? Ray's replacement from the Burnley area is that splendid Bass Guitarist called Mike Quinn." Freddie Garrity —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

please grow up, I didn't sign up for this non-sense — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikequinn10 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

After tracing IP addresse it's obvious that the 2 waring editors are 86.163.211.117 Milton Keynes and the other ending in 72 is from Blackpool, come on guys other people are reading this and if I can trace an IP others can too. Once the page restrictions are lifted Im removing all association with this page, I dont want dragging down to your level, unless someone else wants to remove my link and name from the page. I used to be proud to be associated with this group, sad to say I'm not now Im embarrased not to say the least. Your comments are completely irrelevant to the subject ,pal, anyone from any ip adress can enter comments on this page, its meant to be a discussion on improvements to the article. so i suggest you keep your comments to relevant ones only. If you're not happy i suggest you take it up with the people themselves as you seem to know exactly where they live. god preserve us from busy bodies like you lol !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 17 April 2011 Stop embarrasing your self, I see baby house has started, it pathetic — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikequinn10 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 17 April 2011 (UTC) yet another irrelevant comment. If youve nothing relevant to add to this discussion. just be quiet please....

Way forward
In order for editing restrictions to be removed there needs to be a good indication that edit warring will cease. The best solution seems to be to divide the page into separate sections covering the history of the 'original' and the 'new Dreamers'. I would emphasise that deleting big chunks of content from this page is unhelpful to the process and will only delay the lifting of editing restrictions. Further, if content removal continues I will not hesitate to block the editors responsible. TerriersFan (talk) 15:53, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The Dreamers, The New Dreamers, Freddies Dreamers, are all just dreamers, they'll never have or acheive what was created in the 60s with the original group & have no place on this page, Im sorry they all find it hard to accept, why dont they start thier own wiki page & link to this one? simple...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 16:44, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * In articles like this, it is normal for Wikipedia to include brief details of spin-offs etc., especially when they are not of sufficient note to merit their own page. Rothorpe (talk) 16:53, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

well it is absolutely certain that none of them are of sufficient note to merit their own page. I think that anybody reading all this will realise that fact in the way they all behave !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 00:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The New Dreamers 1975.An authentic band.TN Dreamers The New Dreamers an established band Uk and abroad. The original New Dreamers where part of Freddie and The Dreamers.They toured as an independent band without Fred 1975-1976 The band has been in existence since then.A well known fact.The New Dreamers 1975 still touring at this time and continue to do so.

Later novice millenium members possibly would not known this because of age.

The reference to the new dreamers 1990's from Fred biog is as such.. newcomers.As that is what they where newcomers. They were part of Freddie and the Dreamers last band.Extraction and the play on words of new dreamers does not mean they are the band. The New Dreamers.Moreover....at that time they where latest back line up.Being as New.Novice Dreamers so to speak. Biography also refers to Mr Ray Barlow.....i gave Ray Barlow the job in Freddie and The Dreamers.He had been stranded on the QE2 when it had ran a ground.Previously with Manchester Radio Orchestra but played bass in Freddie and The Dreamers.His father used to play the organ in Blackpool's Tower Ballroom.

Wiki is about documented history with evidence not one person's opinion or oneupmanship.

Whether you agree or disagree the page is for history as stated with band spin off's included.

For one person to force their own opinion on others by insisting that last band members is not fair play. There have been members before you.Not for personal gain but as documented history.

The original band has premier status.

Band history to follow is a simple straight forward logical method to employ here. EamonnMK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.211.117 (talk) 04:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

While the story of the original group is the main one, the later years can be included too, but they need to be sourced. Rothorpe (talk) 02:33, 3 April —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.211.117 (talk) 04:20, 18 April 2011 (UTC) Fair Comment but we only have your word for all this... Freddie Garritys Biography names all of the Dreamers he thought important to his band over the whole of his career including The Dreamers who left him, i.e, Alan Moscas lot and The Rapiers amongst many others. Eamonn Carr is not mentioned once. I think this is a reputable soursce if there is any...Freds own words... I rest me case... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 09:17, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Main point of this Eamonn Carr was a member of Freddie and The Dreamers and that is a documented fact.There are many other former band members not mentioned in the said biography either.Does not mean they where not members of the band.We only have your word those members where important to the band.Your words. 77.100.205.72 Direct evidence please adding your own hearsay gossip not factual./ Will you clarify your intent why you have stated this. EamonnMK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.211.117 (talk) 11:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

In articles like this, it is normal for Wikipedia to include brief details of spin-offs etc., especially when they are not of sufficient note to merit their own page. Rothorpe (talk) 16:53, 17 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.211.117 (talk)

ok let us all see your factual documented evidence. prove your claim and all will be clear.. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 11:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

here is some factual photographic eveidence...w

these pictures provided below are of some of the officially recorded members taken over the years..

http://www.box.net/shared/static/cgej15drny.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 12:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

http://www.box.net/shared/static/2ay05i7rhx.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 15:10, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

my goodness this is all really fascinating stuff. my wife and i never realised that Freddie had so many dreamers. They are all coming out of the woodwork. We are so intrigued that we are setting up a site with all the dreamers info on.

if you have any dates or further proof that you are ex dreamers, email us and we will collate it all and post it on here as well. what we have at the moment from here is keeping us going.

all great stuff gents. keep it coming...and keep the battles raging lol.. its sooooo funny,,,,,

email..freddiegarrity@live.co.uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by SIXTIES FAN (talk • contribs) 16:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The way forward lol, this is a disgrace!!! Grown men acting worse than my 20month old grandaughter, I hope your ALL proud of yourselves... info@quinntastic.co.uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikequinn10 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. But at least this discusion has proved one thing beyond a doubt. Freddie only had one proper set of Dreamers. The one and only originals. All the rest of you were just musicians who worked for Freddie and have no place on this page. He had so many cheap and cheerful musicians that he obviously used and abused. There is not one who merits a place in connection with the original history of the band. There are quite a few on here who are just riding on the name. Thank goodness this debate has devalued each and every one of you. I shall make sure I absolutely avoid any concert by any so called phony dreamer bands or solo artists purporting to be ex dreamers. The name is not worth a light.. enough said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerry knight (talk • contribs) 17:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

and i suggest you take every single name off the article except the original history. and lock it so no one but an administrator can edit. all these these phony dreamers will never agree to anything its obvious so let em go to dreamland where they all belong,,,thats what i think anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerry knight (talk • contribs) 18:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

This is addressed to IP number 77.100.205.72.He alone is responsible for the decline of this page.He has continual deleted off other legitimate members on the mainpage resulting in it being froze.He has made others the subject of his direct page abuse.See prvious posts of 77.100.205.72 In academia it is about being polite with substance evidence.Not personal opinion.Evidence was on this site with reference to other members which he continually removed.He does not sign his posts.Thus have no substance.If he disagrees he deletes adjust and manipulates.Clearly destroying the page. The New Dreamers are legitimate band with former members of Freddie and The Dreamers.77.100.205.72 at any costs wants this page to his own value.WIKi is about collated evidence.If you want see any former members of the above.www.thenewdreamers.com     click pictures. There are pictures there of Freddie and The dreamers.We can also send via direct email our link is there also.

Lastly i say again, any way 77.100.205.72 can manipulate the page for his own end he will.He has clearly demonstrated this and should barred.He  hides and does not sign his posts.Just look back at all his attacks on others here. As a successful band The New dreamers have tried to contribute to this page with dignity in respect of all of Fred's Three wife's and families. I appeal to all to share that view with us and move forward with signed posts.

quote...the jealous man hides and points from afar.Remove your blindfold and view damage to non but yourself.

EamonnMK — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 07:57, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Evidence supplied personal attack deleted.

Yes, Eamonn Carr was a musician working for Freddie for a very short amount of time. No one disputes this. All we are all saying is that he does not belong on an article about the ORIGINAL FREDDIE AND THE DREAMERS RECORDING BAND> He along with all the other musicians on here were merely employed by Freddie in later years.

He seems to be allowed to say whatever he likeso here and then when someone like me sticks up for The original person who cannot stand up for himself being deceased, namely Freddie Garrity, I get hauled across the coals and get my factual comments deleted.

Its very unfair and one sided. and I will not be taking part further.

Unfortunately this is all very sad but everyone now knows that Carr is one of hundreds and had but a very small part to play along the way.. .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.205.72 (talk) 10:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

As you can see from the above a direct attack on myself again EamonnMK — Preceding unsigned comment added by EamonnMK (talk • contribs) 10:40, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I have written to wiki and suggested they close this page for a period of time given its now non constructive direction taken. EamonnMK

This is all very laughable and exceedingly trivial. To sum up my thoughts on the matter as an avid reader of Wiki Pop History.. I have just been to the article and read it all through. I think it sums up everything very well. The founder members are mentioned, The last members of a line up that actually covered hundreds of musicians are mentioned and the now world famous Mr Carr is mentioned in the legacy part as touring his band The New Dreamers.

What is all this tripe about. The facts are all there in black and white.

the only thing that i think should be erased is the link to the kasuals which has no bearing on the subject and nor actually have any adverts to any other spin off dreamers cos they really are not part of the original history.

does anybody else have any views on this subject ... OTHER THAN THE USUAL 3 WARRING PHONY DREAMERS !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerry knight (talk • contribs) 19:47, 19 April 2011 (UTC) Hooray .. Well said - First sensible comment in ages !!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SIXTIES FAN (talk • contribs) 18:06, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

And we will be very wary in future if we see any New Dreamers, Dreamers or Freddie Dreamers. This has all proved to us that truly all that glitters is not gold......or dreamers even...

actually its not just this lot, just go to sixties festivals and theres very few originals. Lets face it all the proper pukka band members are into their seventies like us mostly retired or deceased. So I think this lot should not think the public so gullible.

People like us are starting to think they are being some`what fraudulent...bout time we started boycotting anybody but the originals..

This is all completely irelevant. Who Cares Fellas, Go and battle it out elsewhere. This is not the place to advertise or wage wars. Your makin youself look ridiculous, especially that Mr. Carr bloke.....SIXTIES FAN (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Would like to point out a few things that are important to these obviously novice editors.

This page in a nutshell: Participate in a respectful and considerate way, and avoid directing profane and offensive language at other users. Do not ignore the positions and conclusions of others. Try to discourage others from being uncivil, and avoid upsetting other editors whenever possible.

When disagreement occurs, try to the best of your ability to explain and resolve the problem, not cause more conflict, and so give others the opportunity to reply in kind. Consider whether a dispute stems from different perspectives, and look for ways to reach consensus. When doubt is cast on good faith, continue to assume good faith yourself where you can. Be civil and follow dispute resolution processes, rather than attacking editors or edit warring with them. If you wish to express doubts about the conduct of fellow Wikipedians, please substantiate those doubts with specific diffs and other relevant evidence, so that people can understand the basis for your concerns. Although bad conduct may seem to be due to bad faith, it is usually best to address the conduct without mentioning motives, which might exacerbate resentments all around. Be careful about citing this principle too aggressively. Just as one can incorrectly judge that another is acting in bad faith, so too can one mistakenly conclude that bad faith is being assumed, and exhortations to "Assume Good Faith" can themselves reflect negative assumptions about others if a perceived assumption of bad faith was not clear-cut.

Even if bad faith is evident, do not act uncivilly yourself in return, attack others, or lose your cool over it. It is ultimately much easier for others to resolve a dispute and see who is breaching policies, if one side is clearly acting appropriately throughout. Wikipedia administrators and other experienced editors involved in dispute resolution will usually be glad to help, and are very capable of identifying policy-breaching conduct if their attention is drawn to clear and specific evidence.

Wikkki fan (talk) 15:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems that there is some kind of rivalry between past members of the group, lets not forget this page is supposed to be about Freddie and the Dreamers, The recording group from the 60s, and that alone, all other members were not CONTRACTUAL members therfore have no bearing or realavance to this page, Link to external pages of later members are also irrelavant, and have no bearing on the history of this group,

The Dreamers, The New Dreamers, Freddies Dreamers, are all just dreamers, they'll never have or acheive what was created in the 60 with the original group & have no place on this page, I sorry you find it hard to accept......

This page should be soley relavent to 5 members & 5 members ONLY, Garrity, Birrel, Quinn, Crewdson & Dwyer, No one else, you others didn't record or contribute anything to the music of the group

Wikkki fan (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

In addition to the above.... It has also been noted and reported that certain editors have been misrepresenting others This is unacceptable... See below Never post personal details: Users who post what they believe are the personal details of other users without their consent may be blocked for any length of time, including indefinitely. Do not misrepresent other people: The record should accurately show significant exchanges that took place, and in the right context. This usually means: Be precise in quoting others. Generally, do not alter others' comments, including signatures. Do not ask for another's personal details Do not impersonate other editors

Dont forget you can be traced ...Be warned. This is illegal activity..Wikkki fan (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

- Never post personal details: Users who post what they believe are the personal details of other users without their consent may be blocked for any length of time, including indefinitely. Do not misrepresent other people: The record should accurately show significant exchanges that took place, and in the right context. This usually means: Be precise in quoting others. Generally, do not alter others' comments, including signatures. '''Do not ask for another's personal details Do not impersonate other editors Dont forget you can be traced ...Be warned. This is illegal activity''' Wikkki fan (talk) 12:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems that there is some kind of rivalry between past members of the group, lets not forget this page is supposed to be about Freddie and the Dreamers, The recording group from the 60s, and that alone, all other members were not CONTRACTUAL members therfore have no bearing or realavance to this page, Link to external pages of later members are also irrelavant, and have no bearing on the history of this group,

When disagreement occurs, try to the best of your ability to explain and resolve the problem, not cause more conflict, and so give others the opportunity to reply in kind. Consider whether a dispute stems from different perspectives, and look for ways to reach consensus. When doubt is cast on good faith, continue to assume good faith yourself where you can. Be civil and follow dispute resolution processes, rather than attacking editors or edit warring with them. If you wish to express doubts about the conduct of fellow Wikipedians, please substantiate those doubts with specific diffs and other relevant evidence, so that people can understand the basis for your concerns. Although bad conduct may seem to be due to bad faith, it is usually best to address the conduct without mentioning motives, which might exacerbate resentments all around. Be careful about citing this principle too aggressively. Just as one can incorrectly judge that another is acting in bad faith, so too can one mistakenly conclude that bad faith is being assumed, and exhortations to "Assume Good Faith" can themselves reflect negative assumptions about others if a perceived assumption of bad faith was not clear-cut.

'''Even if bad faith is evident, do not act uncivilly yourself in return, attack others, or lose your cool over it. It is ultimately much easier for others to resolve a dispute and see who is breaching policies, if one side is clearly acting appropriately throughout.''' Wikipedia administrators and other experienced editors involved in dispute resolution will usually be glad to help, and are very capable of identifying policy-breaching conduct if their attention is drawn to clear and specific evidence. Wikkki fan (talk) 12:32, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

All gone?
Looks like the various sockpuppets of Quinn2go have all been blocked. Anyone left out there? Rothorpe (talk) 23:10, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still here watching, waiting, great to see all the misusers gone. hopefully for good and the ones who were trying to impersonate me. the IP doesn't lie. Mikequinn10 (talk) 11:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have unprotected the page; if the dispute resumes, I will slam down the protection faster than anyone can say 'edit warring'. :-) TerriersFan (talk) 22:53, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Rothorpe (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry; having reflected I have altered the protection to semi-protect for 1 month so as to ease back to normality! TerriersFan (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds wise. Thanks for giving me time to do my edits! Rothorpe (talk) 01:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It won't affect you as an established editor, of course, only new editors and IPs. TerriersFan (talk) 01:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, I missed the "semi-". Rothorpe (talk) 02:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

- Never post personal details: Users who post what they believe are the personal details of other users without their consent may be blocked for any length of time, including indefinitely. Do not misrepresent other people: The record should accurately show significant exchanges that took place, and in the right context. This usually means: Be precise in quoting others. Generally, do not alter others' comments, including signatures. Do not ask for another's personal details Do not impersonate other editors Dont forget you can be traced ...Be warned. This is illegal activity — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeanbyker (talk • contribs) 00:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Notice per recent ANI thread
May I remind all editors that using multiple accounts abusively and personal attacks are completely prohibited. Please comment on the content, not the contributor, and do not edit war to support the inclusion of your changes, but use talk pages to discuss and establish a level of mutual agreement and consensus cordially among everyone. WilliamH (talk) 05:54, 18 October 2011 (UTC)