Talk:Frederick William Franz/Archive 3

Relevant Controversies Added
To be fair, I have added extremely relevant documentation under a "Controversies" heading that should be considered by anyone wanting to know about Franz's education, and credentials as a past President of the Watchtower Society.Shaneroosky (talk) 07:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * A few quick points:


 * Wikipedia pages should not be cited to support assertions in other WP articles. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, is a tertiary source. We need to cite secondary sources.
 * We need to avoid original synthesis by editorializing on what may or may not be found in primary sources. (See WP:AVOID, WP:SYN)
 * If reliable secondary sources are found that make editorial comments, by all means, please add them. But please, attribute them to author(s) and a secondary source that can be verified in hard or electronic copy. (See WP:ATT)
 * Transcripts are primary sources and should be removed from this article.


 * Regards, J Readings (talk) 05:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I'm fairly new to Wikipedia so I appreciate your input to help make my edits and input more verifiable. The statement I made of Franz being "generally recognized" is stated in the third paragraph of this article, which is not verified. The addition about the actual number of hours he spent in certain classes at UC was taken from the Wikipedia article on the New World Translation and it seems to be under dispute at the moment so I will remove it. I think the rewritten section should be an improvement. Thank you. Shaneroosky (talk) 19:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ray Franz

 * 1) Ray Franz is Frederick's nephew.
 * 2) Ray Franz was a member of the governing body.
 * 3) Ray Franz was both of these things when he was disfellowshipped in 1980.
 * 4) Fred Franz was president of the org in 1980.

Explain to me, Marvin Shilmer, exactly how this material is "irrelevant"? He is the highest ranking member of the org ever to be disfellowshipped. He wrote a book about his experiences and his notability has been TOTALLY established on wikipedia, so much so that there is a link to his article on the series template. If you ask me, i think quotes from Ray regarding his uncle are relevant in this article as well, considering this was one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) scandal in WT history. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 08:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Popefauvexxiii: It is simple. This article is about Fred Franz, not Ray Franz. I see no irrelevancy in using published statements about Fred Franz, whether these are written by Ray Franz or anyone else that is reliable. The place to put details about Ray Franz is in the article about Ray Franz.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I respectfully but strongly disagree. Ray Franz is probably the single most famous JW in the world, short of maybe Rutherford, and a close blood relative of the Org's president, the subject of this article, at the time of his excommunication. I cant imagine how anybody could disagree with the pertinence of this information in this article, in good faith. We are either going to need mediation on this matter or begin to discuss alternative presentations of the statement. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 09:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * PopeFauveXXIII: Mediation? Are you kidding me? Do with the information as you please. It is just not that important, regardless of the disagreement. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 16:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Works for me. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 23:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong with linking to him. But I don't think so much information is required. Something simple, along the lines of "Raymond Franz was a notable nephew of Frederick". No need for listing his date of disfellowship and the like. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 03:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)