Talk:Free climbing/Archive 1

Trimming
Until this article has refs I'd like to leave Long's book in place. The external link seems fine too. The article needs expansion and refs but until then the link and Long book are useful.(olive (talk) 22:09, 11 May 2013 (UTC))

misinformation
Free climbing means climbing solely on one's own effort, with or without pro (protection- rope, cams, nuts, etc). Within the context of climbing, "free climbing" is the antithesis of AID climbing. This definition is pretty universal. I hope that this entry will eventually be corrected.Reddirt 22:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The article suggest this, but I'd agree the wording and so meaning is poor. I'll fix it later today. Thanks.(olive (talk) 15:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC))


 * I'm not sure the definition is universal. I think it is only an Americanism. In Europe free climbing pretty much exclusively means free from any equipment / ropes / other people. Your definition makes no sense -109.246.155.98 (talk) 21:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above comment but as Wikipedia is American they will just put what they want and not care about what the rest of us think. There should be a comment in the lede saying:


 * 1. In the majority of the world free climbing means climbing without any equipment or ropes.
 * 2. In America free climbing means the opposite of aid climbing and can include using ropes for protection.


 * However this will not happen as Americans are so insular that they cannot comprehend that anyone would disagree with them.--109.246.155.161 (talk) 22:21, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The term free climbing is used as opposed to aid climbing. It means climbing using only the rock as means to ascend, as opposed to using gear as a means to ascend. Protection is another matter. You can free-climb with or without protection, and you can aid-climb with or without protection. Free climbing without protection is called free solo climbing. This is true in the US and in Europe as well. The only slight difference is between British English and American English, and it's not about the "free" part, it's about the "solo" part, where in British English "solo" tends to be understood as in alpinism and mountaineering, and in American English is tends to keep within the rock climbing field. Akseli9 (talk) 00:08, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I know that is what it means in America. That is not what it means in the rest of the world.--109.246.154.14 (talk) 18:25, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it is what it means at least in several parts of Europe, i.e. not only in America. May I ask where your area is?--Anderfo (talk) 10:28, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I disagree. In those parts of Europe I've climbed (mostly Norway and Italy), free climbing means without aiding, soloing means without a climbing partner, and free soloing means free of rope.--Anderfo (talk) 10:28, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * As it is, the article is plain wrong about the term being different in all of Europe. As mentioned by Anderfo it is certainly not different in Norway. I believe the terms are mostly the same in the UK too. In what countries does "free climbing" refer to "free solo climbing"? 2001:700:303:C:1C5A:FE5C:E077:ABBF (talk) 00:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * free is a word in the English language, and in English speaking countries, free climbing is climbing without artificial aids, but with the use of a rope for protection. There may well be European countries which use a word for soloing that translates as "free", but this is English Wikipedia, and the terminology used in English should stand.24.108.51.53 (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

In the UK climbing community Free climbing refers to climbing without the use of artificial aids for progress but with the use of such equipment (including ropes) for protection. Soloing refers to climbing alone and the context is derived from the style of the climb being soloed, thus if you climbed an aid route alone it would be described as a "solo" but everyone would know that you climbed it as an aid route. There is also a Roped solo which is used to describe a free climb done alone but using some form of self-belaying system. The confusion between free climbing and soloing appears to have come from commercial concerns ignorant of the differences between free and aid climbs.REWightman (talk) 12:37, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Untitled
I dont agree with the posts about maintaining free climbing separate from free solo climbing. However, I dont think that free climbing and lead climbing should be merged. From my own stupid knowledge base they are the same thing and reading the articles the only distinction I can find is that one is indoors climbing and one is outdoor climbing. But climbing is organized by technique and they have the same protection technique. Comments? User: Chem777 15:39, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I changed the sentence "The term free climbing is commonly confused with free soloing by non-climbers. This is a type of free climbing where no rope or protective equipment is used for protection,..." to disambiguate what the word "this" refers to since I did not find it to be obvious from the text and the two terms are often confused by people, anyway. I also added a short section discussing the difference between free soloing and soloing since, in my experience, these two terms are confused by people constantly. I'll try to find a book that I can site on this one... I'm sure that Long and Middendorf have defined the terms in one of their "Technical Rock Climbing" how-to type books. User:Mathfu —Preceding comment was added at 03:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It's certainly cleaner now :) -Clueless (talk) 04:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I added the tag to this article. Both articles are quite short and say almost the same thing. The only diffrence between the two seems to be that the topic of the other article is a subset of the this one, where the only diffrence is weather or not you are going about the free climbing while alone. I suspect that such a minor diffrence coudl be addressed in a single article with a short discussion of variations. Dalf | Talk 06:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Free climbing is a general term for rock climbing done using only the hands and the feet for forward progress and using the rope only to protect the climbers from falls. The termonology is a bit confusing, but free soloing is free climbing done without a rope. I don't feel that the topics should be merged because they are quite different: free climbing is what the majority of people are doing when they go rock climbing whereas free soloing is done much more rarely and is considered by many to be quite risky. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.213.211 (talk) 18:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the two warrant distinct definitions. "Free climbing" and "free solo" are often confused. Furthermore, the definition of "free solo" has no relationship to whether or not the climber is alone. It is entirely possible to climb "roped solo" (either "free" or "with aid") or for two or more climbers to be climbing "free solo". 203.32.168.75 —Preceding undated comment added 01:26, 23 January 2006‎ (UTC)


 * Yes that distinction aside, it does seem that the two are very much related, in terms of equptment used (or in this case not used). As both articles are almost sub-stubs it might be worthwhile to combine them (possibly into a diffrently named article).  I think combinning articles can encorage mroe deiting attention and then once they have grown if it seem approprate they can be split back out based on the content present. Dalf | Talk 04:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Parachute
What about parachute? Is that considered free solo or free climbing? 213.149.51.253 (talk) 15:39, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

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Free Soloing and Free Climbing are quite different
These two terms are often confused by non climbers as the names are very similar however, they represent two completely different styles of climbing.

Rock climbing can be broken into several different forms, and technically, free soloing is a subcategory of free climbing, but so are many others: this goes for sport climbing, traditional climbing, toproping as well as bouldering. Free climbing denotes NON-AID climbing, thats all. It just means that protection, whether bolts, a toprope, trad gear or otherwise, is simply that, protection, it is not to be used to aid a climber up the wall. Free soloing usees NO protection, which starkly contrasts all other styles of climbing (excluding bouldering which uses no roped pro but still uses crash pads.)°

Despite the name "soloing," being alone is not the deciding factor here (though it is often done in this manner), it is simply climbing without protection. Roped soloing is another form of climbing in which a climber belays himself.

Free climbing is a large general category of climbing which includes many others, Free soloing is a very small one generaly only practiced by very experianced climbers, thus the two are very different and should not be merged. If anything the free climbing page could be expanded to show all forms of climbing included in "free climbing" whith links to their respective articles.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Prana3 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the comment above. gala.martin ( what? ) 17:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. The text above describes the terms quite clearly, and perhaps some of it should be moved into the entry for Free Climbing, because non-climbers often think Free Climbing means Free Soloing.  One other point - there is also an entry for "Solo Climbing" which is not inaccurate, but might be better linked.  Duncant 03:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * A UK take on this. The basic term is "soloing", i.e. climbing alone. Since we have very few aid climbs in the UK the term "soloing" is the same as "soloing a free climb without using protection". We then qualify the term for other styles: Used a rope and gear - "roped solo"; soloed an aid route - "aid solo". Removing the adjective "free" means that there is less confusion between the two terms, we also simply say "climbing" - the assumption is that we are doing non-aid routes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by REWightman (talk • contribs) 08:15, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

To free climb = no rope. Simples. 109.246.155.98 (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it most precisely does not. Please read this article (focusing on the section "Misuse of the term" [of free climbing]) and the article on free solo. 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 12:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Common Usage
There is some regional differnces as well. Growing up in Southern California, as a teen, when we talked about "free climbing" we really meant... the term "free soloing" as defined here. But in common usage by non-professional climbers... we all knew it meant using NOTHING> from my perspective as a climber for 20 years, but not a professional, we used the terms "free climbing" to denote nothing.. just you and the rock... "Roped Climbing" to climb with just a safety rope ( the protection noted above) and then "techincal climbing" to denote the use of "hardware" beyond simple securements.... such as bolts, laddeers, pulleys, etc. anything more than just a simple belay.

Some individuals i know use the term "clean climbing" which refers to not using anything that "stays behind" for example, pitons or bolts. They use only nuts and cam devieces, adn the bottom climber "cleans up" as they climb and are top belayed. then they have the nuts and botls, and then pass the previous "lead climber" and takes the lead, being belayed from below.

Some feel this is a bit riskier as you "clean up" there is aperiod of time when you have one point of contact with the rock for a belay. but for the many "free solo" climbers I know... this is how we have delt with our age and lesser abilites. also with greater responsibility to work, familes, the group / community I climb with is using more "protection" and those"single belay" moments bring back the "juice" of our old free climbing days. Just a thought. 146.82.32.242 14:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This poster provides some interesting reflection on past regional use of certain terms, as well as introduces some new ones used in their circle, but is absolutely confused on the notion of a second being left to the mercy of a single point of removable protection.
 * This should never be. Only when a lead climber is being protected during a free climb by a single item of placed protection (following the first item they place) are they protected by that one item.  No second will advance (and begin removing protection placed by the leader, as they encounter it) until the leader has established an appropriately secure belay (whatever that may entail, from a single point around a credibly secure ("bombproof") anchor (such as a stoutly rooted tree) to a basic equalized three-point belay (comprised of any combination of fixed features and removable protection).  That is what protects a second when they are down to removing their last item of previously placed route protection, and after it has been removed.  There should never be a time where they are being protected by anything less than a properly secured belay.2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 12:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

The confusion
Ok, currently there is:
 * Solo climbing - defines "solo climbing" as climbing by yourself, split into "roped solo" (, and "free solo" (without ropes, a form of free climbing). The possibility of climbing by yourself, using a rope only for protection, does not seem to be covered
 * free solo climbing - defines "free solo climbing" as not using any protection, but doesn't specify whether you have to be alone
 * free climbing - defines "free climbing" as being the opposite of "aid climbing", climbing with protection but only using hands/feet. Also considers "free solo climbing" and "bouldering" as sub-forms.

Based on the conversation above, the most coherent picture would in fact be:
 * Free climbing: just the opposite of aid climbing, but occasionally misused to mean "free solo climbing"
 * Free solo climbing: a variation of free climbing with no rope, of which bouldering and deep-water soloing are safer variants
 * ?Solo climbing (if that's the real term): Completely unrelated, just means climbing any style by yourself, whether with protection or without.

Therefore I recommend:
 * Don't merge Free solo climbing and Free climbing, as Bouldering and Deep-water soloing have their own articles. Either merge them all (!), or leave them separate.
 * Tighten up the definitions of the above. In particular:
 * Make free climbing, bouldering and deep-water soloing start off with some phrase like "Is a form of free climbing that does not use protection..."
 * Make solo climbing explicitly disclaim any similarity with free solo climbing.

Hope this helps. Stevage 15:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The poster has many things correct above, but is confused - and wrong - about free climbing solo (that is to say, a single climber ascending using protection) being "aid climbing". It is not.  Using a self- or auto-protection device to protect against a fall when climbing solo without a belayer (as basic as a prussick placed above the climber on the climbing rope and attached to their harness with a sling) is not "aid climbing", as the climber is not intending to use the item to help them ascend, only protect them in the case of a fall.
 * Only if the climber is intending to make their solo climb using artificial aid (such as placing a pair of prussicks attached to long slings that act as "stirrups" and allow them to "walk up" the rope by alternately raising the unloaded knot; or attaching jumars to the rope and using them to ascend) does it become an "aid climb", and therefore no longer a "free climb". A "solo aid climb", to be precise.
 * Further nuance, such as whether the above climber ever rests on a single prussick placed for protection (or any auto-locking device placed above them), is a matter of climbing "style" or "ethics", and does not alter the definition of the climb. Only using protection to ascend does.2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 12:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

My take

 * I am new at this so I am going to forgo the formating for now.
 * Don't merge them. The distinctions are important.
 * Learned to climb in socal. Free climbing meant not to use aid.  Free solo meant not to use a rope.
 * "Solo climbing" never really heard of that term before.
 * Have heard of
 * roped solo (free or aid)
 * unroped solo (aid and sometime free(not the same as free soloing))
 * Intratext post: "Unroped solo" being an "aid climb"? This has to be a typing error of some kind, as it is not a rational statement, given the definitions of "aid climbing" and "free solo" - unless somehow the poster is referring to something like ascending a klettersteig route (with bolts placed close enough to constantly clip into and out of without using a rope).  Which most certainly is not "free climbing" by any definition (nor is it "aid climbing" if the climber is not using the protection points to ascend). 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 13:01, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Many people freesolo with a partner.
 * Intratext post: The ambiguousness of the language here risks distorting the intention of the statement. What the poster appears to be trying to say is that sometimes free solo climbers independently climb with other free soloing climbers (in the same area, on the same pitch of rock or route, whatever).  Like folks do bouldering (sans using spotters, in the case of "free soloing").  By definition the terms "free solo" and climbing with a "partner" are antithetical. 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 13:01, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The line between free soloing and scrambling becomes blurred in the mountains.
 * Intratext post: A very excellent point, and useful to be brought up in efforts to define "free soloing" as a distinct form of climbing (that has gone beyond where scrambling falls on a climbing rating system, such as the Yosemite Decimal). Nobody would attempt to characterize two hikers ascending a patch of scrambling "free soloing" anything, no matter if they are not using any protection (as by definition none is required scrambling; as soon as a rope and belayer are employed it's no longer a scramble, no matter how the actual terrain may be rated in a guidebook). 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 13:01, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

--Thinredline 17:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

from the article
 * Free climbing is a style of climbing in which the climber uses no artificial aids to make progress upwards, but just hands, feet and other parts of the body.
 * (according to that, sport climbing is aid climbing unless your on a redpoint attempt or flash. In other words 90% of the time sport climbers are not "free climbing" Now, I suppose you are going to claim that hanging doesn't aid forward progress")
 * Intratext post: The poster is confusing climbing "definitions" with climbing "style". (Although the two have been much confused, conflated, and entangled with the introduction of concepts such as "flashing" and "redpointing" and others derived from climbing gyms.)
 * The definitions of aid climbing and free climbing using protection are well and long established in broad strokes (regardless whether matters of nuance may be drawn into flux over time). An "aid climb" is one where one uses "devices" ("aids", in the form of ascenders, knots such as prussicks attached to slings used as stirrups) to ascend.  A free climb uses "protection" (from the rope itself and removable chocks to pitons and even epoxied bolts) for protection (and protection only).
 * The matter of resting while roped has always been one of style, accepted when the climber is responsible for their own balance and secure attachment to the rock, regarded as "poor form" when secured in any way by the rope (as in resting mid-move, steadied by their belayer), or, even worse, not even attached to the rock, suspended by their belayer). Both are known as "weighting the rope", and are rock climbing party fouls.
 * Mincing the matter of a self-stable climber resting (responsible for their own balance) while protected by a rope has traditionally been foregone and not regarded as any form of aid, as they are not ascending a climb using any of their protection directly.
 * "Weighting a rope" has been regarded as poor form, a "demerit" against a climb and climber, as it begs the issue of the climber being "aided" by their protection. It, however, does not cross the line into being an "aid climb" - even if it provides an unearned "rest" - because it does not involve using one's gear directly to ascend.
 * Similarly, weighting a climber - that is, a belayer steadying or actually accepting some of a climber's weight to make a move easier - is regarded as a matter of very poor form.
 * (Though such sanction for either (weighting a rope, or weighting a climber) is relative. While opprobrium would be leveled at an experienced climber, such things involving a climber say on their very first time on a rope, even a child (who tires and loses their hold mid-move, rests briefly (held by their belayer), then resumes; or peels, ends up suspended, gathers themselves while the belayer takes enough of their load to make them feel secure and willing to continue, then does), are overlooked in the spirit of the climb.  As it is better to keep them climbing, and back on the rocks the next time out, ideally educated on the matters of style involved, then for them to sour on the sport and never tie-in again.) 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Equipment is used only for protection against the consequences of a fall.
 * (Never heard of a belay anchor? Few people refuse to weight a belay anchor(to fullfill the ideal of free climbing) and most accept it as a point of aid)
 * Intratext post: Once again the poster misconstrues the terminology. A belay anchor should never be weighted in a "free climb".  And thus is it not a form of aid; it is a point of protection.
 * If a climber is weighting a belay anchor in order to use it to ascend by definition they are "aid climbing", however they are using it thus (as via prussicks, jumars, or whathaveyou). It does not matter if the belay anchor is an epoxied bolt, balanced three-point, or redwood.
 * If the climber is somehow weighting a belay anchor to rest during a free climb (which should not happen as described, as their weight should be on the belayer, on their belay device, not the anchor protecting BOTH the belayer and laboring climber) they are technically still free climbing (since they are not using their equipment to ascend) but are showing very poor form, a matter of style, not climbing definition. 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The term is used in contrast to aid climbing, in which equipment is used directly to make progress.

(finally something partially factual. The only problem is that many, if not most, aid routes have free climbing sections)
 * Intratext post: An aid climb having a stretch or more of free climbing does not make it not and aid climb, so long as it has points where the climber ascends using gear.

Styles of free climbing include traditional climbing, sport climbing, some forms of solo climbing and bouldering. Free soloing is a type of free climbing where no rope is used for protection and falls would be disastrous.

(So the only style of freeclimbing that fits your definition is   free soloing) ps being protected from the consequences of a fall by a rope or crash pad is another form of artificial aid that aids upward progress, unless your into word games as oppossed to reality.
 * Intratext post: Again, the poster is confused by the definition of "aid" in rock climbing, conflating "aid" (using gear to ascend) with "protection" (employing gear for safety).
 * They do, however, beg some distinctions involving bouldering, which is not regarded as "free soloing" on two grounds: length of climb (which like the matter of distinguishing between "scrambling" and "free soloing" above is subjective, with the general distinction being that "bouldering" is done on "boulders" and "free soloing" is to climb a "pitch" (or more) on a "free climb" without protection. One by definition short, the other by definition long (in commparison); and the use of spotters and/or crash pads (or both), which are forms of "protection" that are not employed in free soloing. 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Better to have left it as free climbing means not to use aid. (simpler and more correct)
 * Intratext post: That would be an incorrect definition (on multiple grounds). 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

definitions of Free Climbing pat ament, wizards of rock:  ... avoiding direct support from equipment  ... don mellor " climb from the bottom to the top without weighting and gear or the rope freedom of the hills: weight the rope or gear is poor style..,  "switching between the techniques of aid and free climbing." chris oxlade rockclimbing  "Most climbing is free climbing" definition of "free"  by john long : hands and feet, rope is strictly a safeguard, not for upward progress

Not one mention of anything being a "style of freeclimbing" in any of the above books.. What books do you guys use as a reference source?
 * Intratext post: The impetus for the poster's comments here are unclear in 2022; perhaps that phrase was used in the version of the article when posted. Properly, subsets of free climbing are "forms" of free climbing, while the term "style" is generally applied to such matters (of how a climb was climbed, within its definition, such as "weighting a rope") as those illustrated above. 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 14:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Thinredline 04:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Using ropes for resting and returning to previous positions
The El Capitan article says
 * On January 14, 2015, Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson completed the first free climb of the Dawn Wall after 19 days, one of the hardest climbs in the world. In November 2016, Czech climber Adam Ondra free climbed the Dawn Wall in 8 days. [Boldface added for emphasis]

All three of the cited sources use the term "free climbing" to describe what these three people did. There is also a popular film about Caldwell and Jorgeson's climb, called The Dawn Wall. The film also refers to what they did as "free climbing". So do the articles on Wikipedia about Caldwell and Jorgeson. The article about Ondra refers to his feat as a "free ascent", which seems similar. Obviously, in a span of 19 days or 8 days there are some periods of resting. In the film it is also clear that Caldwell and Jorgeson used ropes for returning to previous positions and used a portaledge and lots of other equipment. Forward progress was made using only hands and feet, but between periods of forward progress, there was lots of equipment being used, and ropes and pulleys and such were also being used for returning to previous positions. Forward progress was made in "pitches", and IIRC, the complete ascent included about 20 pitches. For some period of time, Caldwell was 1–3 pitches ahead of Jorgeson on the route, but between pitches, Caldwell and Jorgeson used assistive equipment to get back into position and also often returned to their portaledge. Caldwell did not repeatedly climb the same pitches over and over – each climber climbed each pitch only once. IIRC, after each fall (and there were many), the climber would return to the beginning of the pitch in question (using assistive equipment) before proceeding. When I modified the lead section of this article to acknowledge these uses of assistive equipment, my change was reverted. The person who reverted it said "Not free climbing if you use rope or other equipment to rest or move back to previous positions. That's what you do when you study a route. Not when you "free climb" it. See Redpoint." I have never seen anyone describe Caldwell and Jorgeson's climb as "studying". There is nothing relevant in the Redpoint article. I just found an article called Redpoint (climbing). It discusses a mixture of lead climbing and free climbing, but does not seem to resolve the issue. I skimmed the previous discussions here on the Talk page and didn't notice anything directly about this question. What do others think? All sources that I have seen have described Caldwell and Jorgeson's climbing as free climbing. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:20, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * This subsequent edit seems to resolve the issue. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:52, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * New post in response to BarrelProof's:
 * The climbs described are "free solos", a subset of "free climbing" (i.e. climbing without making vertical progress using gear) where the climber climbs independently and without gear.
 * The free solo climbers can retreat via ropes - that is doing down, not up - and sleep or rest on a portaledge, as neither involves using gear to ascend. They can also climb near or in parallel with one-another, but still be "soloing" as neither is tied into or dependent on the other in any way.
 * Matters of how long a climb takes, whether a climber has ever seen the route before, or a move is repeated or not, and such non-gear and non-partner related issues fall under style and relate to terms like "flash" and "redpoint", and do not disqualify a climb made entirely alone and without the aid of any gear to either protect the climber or ascend the route from being a "free solo" climb. 2601:196:181:BE00:44F8:2AB7:E8C2:908A (talk) 14:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)