Talk:Freedom Riders/Archive 1

Old text
I've removed the following edits by 66.30.225.99 (talk), but in deference to its spirit I've also added cleanup-verify.
 * This entry is riddled with errors, and should be merged with Freedom Rides, and fact-checked. For example, the Freedom Riders were not :begun by CORE, but were ignored by CORE, and later appealed to CORE for help. Also, there were earlier bus protesters than Rosa Parks :(not to diminish her importance, but let's get the history right.) In general, this entry mixes up several groups. For a history of the :Freedom Riders that at least sticks to the facts, start with
 * http://www.freedomridersfoundation.org/brief.history.html.

Hairy Dude 12:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Note
The corresponding history for this archive can be found at Talk:Freedom Riders/Old history. Graham 87 06:41, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
How can you listen to the song if you cant find it can someone put a url or somehting so people can listen to the song not just to a myspace —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rice91 (talk • contribs) 08:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this should be combined. Note that Freedom Riders entry has many errors, attributes the Freedom Rides to CORE (incorrect), etc. See http://www.freedomridersfoundation.org/brief.history.html for a better history. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.30.225.99 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 25 January 2006 UTC.

No it shouldn't be combined, and it can correctly be contributed to both SNCC and CORE, which founded it. -J.E

I agree with both of you....

It definitely should be combined, and CORE did create the freedom riders! Colea

It should be combined; the two are essentially synonyms. No knowledge of the history but that should be easy to come by. Calmofthestorm

yes should be combined, and the main founder of freedom rides was CORE

I'm a Freedom Rider and I think it should be combined. SNCC sponsored several Freedom Rides when a ICC ruling finally abolished segregation in interstate transportation facilities. (A lot of people confuse the Nashville Student Movement with SNCC, which wasn't true at the time.) Virtually all of the 436 persons who went on Freedom Rides during the summer of 1961 were sponsored by CORE. It's worth noting that NAACP Legal Defense Fund chief Thurgood Marhall--who opposed the Freedom Rides at first because he was afraid they would prompt a backlash threatening civil rights achievements--later gave Jim Farmer several hundred thousand dollars in "excess" funds to use for bail in Mississippi. Dr. King refused to join the first Freedom Rides and had very little to do with any of them. Read Ray Arsenault's recent book titled "Freedom Rides: 1961 and the Struggle for Racial Justice" (Oxford University Press 1961) for the definitive work on this subject.

Combine them, just not under Freedom Riders, under Freedom Rides, no one searches for participants they search for the events.A mcmurray 23:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, combine them. As the first discussion item points out, the Freedom Riders entry has many errors, foremost that it fails to mention the Journey of Reconciliation (if anything, that should be a separate entry) and waxes long but irrelevantly on the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Also, with all due respect that Professor Arsenault's book is the most complete on the subject, it unfortunately has errors. Notably and ironically, that includes missed dates, similar to the "1961" publishing date cited by the writer above (the book came out earlier this year). As for the writer of that discussion item, I apologize for even mentioning your minor error; we all owe much to you and certainly should defer to your judgment as a Freedom Rider that one entry would suffice.

Cleanup
This article has been tagged for a while now, and it needs to meet the standards. Lets get sources, tables of contents, all that stuff.

Stealthrabbit127, the RabbiN8r 16:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

What a mess! This article has been almost rendered useless, with a mixture of the very academic (Boynton v. Virginia right in the beginning, which would lose most readers and means nothing for the serious student without first citing Morgan v. Virginia) and the inane, a rock song mentioning the rides. This article should be one of those that is closed to editing, after it is restored to a reasonable version of months past. Robinbirk (talk • contribs) 19:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

While I am currently busy I have several books which discuss the Freedom Rides at length including:
 * Blumberg, Rhonda Lois. Civil Rights: The 1960s Freedom Struggle, Twayne Publishers, New York: 1984, 1991. (ISBN 0805797335).
 * D'Angelo, Raymond. The American Civil Rights Movement: Readings & Interpretations, McGraw Hill/Dushkin, 2001. (ISBN 0072399872)
 * Dierenfield, Bruce J. The Civil Rights Movement, Pearson Education Limited, Harlow, England: 2004. (ISBN 0582357373).
 * Lewis, John L. Walking with the Wind: A Memoir of the Movement, Simon & Schuster, New York: 1998. (ISBN 0156007088).

My original intention, when I created sections that have since been eliminated, was to incorporate these sources into a major expansion/referencing project. I kind of got busy with other things around the Wiki. When I have time, I will make it a priority to fix this article up good and proper. Following a major expansion on Rock Springs Massacre and near future FA nomination I should have a good idea how to approach a good quality history article such as this. IvoShandor 16:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thins like "This is true!" make the article look unprofessional. teamcoltra


 * Old vandalism to be sure, thanks for catching it, I will watch this article a bit more closely as I removed "this is not a very helpful source from the intro. IvoShandor 09:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to add to additional messiness - I have some documentation regarding the Freedom Riders in Tallahassee FL, and a resulting lawsuit (Dresner v. City of Tallahassee), that I added (and forgot to include in the edit summary (I'm new, be kind...) --LesaDG (talk) 03:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Removed "Today's Freedom Riders" section
I removed the unsigned new section titled "Today's Freedom Riders" because it has nothing to do with the subject of this article. If someone thinks that it is worth posting, it should be a separate article. Brucehartford (talk) 15:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Murdered freedom riders
I came to this page to learn about the 3 freedom riders who were arrested, then handed over to the KKK by a sherif, and then turned up dead in a swamp a few weeks later.

Their names were a 21-year-old black Mississippian, James Chaney, and two white New Yorkers, Andrew Goodman, 20, and Michael Schwerner, 24

Iam suprised this isn't mentioned on the page

86.137.134.53 (talk) 22:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * They're not mentioned here because they weren't Freedom Riders. :-)
 * You can read about Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman at Mississippi civil rights workers murders.—Malik Shabazz 03:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Malik is correct, Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman were not Freedom Riders as the term is normally used, and their lynching is described in the Wiki article Mississippi civil rights workers murders. But after the Freedom Rides it was common in some black communities of Mississippi and elsewhere in the south to casually refer to all civil rights activists as "Freedom Riders." So, it was not unusual for Freedom Summer volunteers, and SNCC, CORE, and SCLC organizers in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana to be called "Freedom Riders" even though they had not actually participated in the Freedom Rides of 1961.
 * Brucehartford (talk) 19:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, thankyou. The book I read about them in referred to them as 'freedom riders', so I assumed that that's what they were. Much obliged to you for pointing me to the correct article and clearing up the soubriquet confusion.

86.141.182.225 (talk) 16:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed Senator Dodd from list of riders
Someone listed Senator Dodd (D-CT) in the Notable Freedom Riders section. I removed his name pending some evidence. I checked "Freedom Riders" by Raymond Arsenault which contains the definitive list of riders, and did not find Dodd's name. Brucehartford (talk) 16:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My mistake. I happen to know he was one, but I can't seem to find an RS. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 02:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Source for negative press comment?
Towards the end of the "Impact" section is the sentence: "The press in white communities condemned the direct action approach CORE was taking, while the national press negatively portrayed the Riders." What is the source for saying that the national press negatively portrayed the Riders? My recollection at the time, and my current ongoing research does not support that assertion. Yes, some in the national media condemned direct action of any sort, but many others lauded the courage and nonviolence of the riders -- particularly in light of the fact that the riders were not engaged in civil-disobedience but rather demanding enforcement of Federal law. Brucehartford (talk) 17:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Added some primary source citations
I found some good newspaper articles from the day. Glad to contribute to this article. Ynottry (talk) 05:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)Ynottry

Movin' on?
Since even the page itself uses "Freedom Riders", shouldn't it be moved to Freedom Riders? TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  21:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed Unsourced Mosquite/DDT Allegation
I removed the following: "...and removed the screens from the windows. When the cell block became filled with mosquitoes, guards hosed down the prisoners with DDT at 2 AM." There is no source given for this allegation and it is not mentioned in Arsenault's extensive description of the conditions that the Freedom Riders experienced in Parchman (see "Freedom Riders" pages 348-65). I personally know a good number of the Freedom Riders who endured Parchman and have heard their stories often, and none have ever mentioned any incident with DDT. Spraying jailed protesters with DDT did occur in some other southern jails at other times, but I have not come across any source saying it was done to the Freedom Riders in Parchman. Brucehartford (talk) 17:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Old page history
Some old page history that used to be at the title "Freedom Riders" can now be found at Talk:Freedom Riders/Old history. The history and content of its corresponding talk page is at Talk:Freedom Riders/Archive 1. Graham 87 06:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Pending Changes Logs Hidden
This page is under PC protection but has no visible logs for it. There are also no logs for previous pending changes reviews. Phantom Tech (talk) 04:34, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Changed roster and route
Could you provide a citation for Bevel's inclusion and the route change? Bevel is not listed on the Nashville Student Movement Freedom Ride roster from pages 537-538 of Freedom Riders: 1961 and the Struggle for Racial Justice. Also on page 184 (last paragraph) of same work it states, "Somewhat surprisingly, Bevel's ten choices did not include Nash, who was deemed too crucial to the entire operation to be placed in jeopardy, or himself. As Bevel explained, rather lamely to some, he had already promised a close friend that he would drive to New York to pick up a load of furniture."

Also, the route for the Nashville Student Movement Freedom Ride is stated as being "Nashville, TN, via Birmingham, AL, to Montgomery, AL" on page 537 of above book.

On a side note, would you like to create a stub for Nashville Student Movement Freedom Ride? The plan going forward is to provide a separate article for each Freedom Ride like the Journey of Reconciliation. That would give individual attention to riders and the events of each Freedom Ride. Thanks. Mitchumch (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi. Bevel did not go on the initial stage, from Birmingham to Montgomery, and joined the riders there on the next stage, the Montgomery to Jackson stage, where everyone was then arrested for trying to desegregate the separate waiting rooms in Jackson. If the list is just for those who started the trip from Birmingham, neither Bevel or Nash were on it. I changed "Nashville" to "Birmingham" because that's where the Nashville group picked up the discontinued ride. I wouldn't think their trip to Birmingham, mostly by car, would count as a Freedom Ride, just transportation to the Freedom Ride. Thank you, but no, just because I wouldn't count or name this the Nashville Freedom Ride, even on this article. It was a continuation of the original Freedom Ride which had been called off because of violence, and the Nashville group, well trained in nonviolence and per Nash's strategy, picked it up at that point to keep it going. Someone I know is looking into possible dedication ceremonies for the two national monuments, and hopefully they will specifically honor Nash along with John Lewis at the Anniston Monument's dedication if there is one. Randy Kryn 14:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Unfinished Citation and Evaluation for Class
Citation #7 found early in the article after "Boynton outlawed racial segregation in the restaurants and waiting rooms in terminals serving buses that crossed state lines." is labeled Catsam and that is all. Doesn't seem to be a valid source... This isn't the only source on this page that strikes me as off like this. SecretKeeper (talk) 07:20, 2 February 2017 (UTC) MC

All the info included in the article seems to be relevant, including the information relating to more modern movements inspired by the Freedom Rider movement, at least in my opinion. SecretKeeper (talk) 07:28, 2 February 2017 (UTC) MC


 * Please list the other sources that you think are off. Afterwards, an effort to address the issue can proceed.  Thanks.  Mitchumch (talk) 07:38, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Clearer Daily Chronology?
I find it difficult to tell how long the Freedom Rides story took to unfold, and I struggle add sources to this article because it is not clear on what days particular events happened. Can someone supply dates, particularly in the Anniston-Birmingham-Montgomery interval? Replacing "that night" with "later on the night of the 18/19/20" would be helpful. For example, the NYT Archives has very detailed articles describing events on May 19 (An injunction issued by State Circuit Court judge Walter B. Jones prohibiting the riders from travel, see https://nyti.ms/2q1yW6u ) and a very detailed description of the events at the Birmingham station (https://nyti.ms/2H8lbuM) that would add excellent detail if it could be ascertained exactly where it went. KevinCuddeback (talk) 12:50, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Library of Congress' New York World Telegram & Sun Photos
It would be really good to get more Freedom Rider photos into the public domain. The Library of Congress has the archives of the New York World Telegram & Sun, and those photos that are the works of its own reporters were placed in the public domain when they were donated to the LOC. see: and a typical search, such as: https://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=freedom%20riders&sp=1&st=gallery KevinCuddeback (talk) 19:37, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Cultural depictions
Most of the current references in this section aren't 'cultural' at all: they're historical presentations that should feature in the Legacy section or a new one about the movement's historiography. (Certainly at this point everything scholarly written about the riders is nearly hagiographic, but it would be interesting if the then-prevalent racism continued for a while within academic accounts of the rides.)

In any case, there should be a place here or on a subsidiary page of actual use of the freedom rides in popular culture, as in one of the fourth season episodes of Boondocks, where one of the recurring characters is a very unwilling participant in an exaggeratedly violent version of the ride into Birmingham. — Llywelyn II   05:33, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Monroe, North Carolina, and Robert F. Williams
I suggest something more like: In early August, SNCC staff members James Forman and Paul Brooks, with the support of Ella Baker, began planning a Freedom Ride in solidarity with Robert F. Williams the NAACP chapter president for Monroe, North Carolina. Williams was controversial and had been suspended by the NAACP national board after he had made a public statement that he would "meet violence with violence," (since the federal government would not protect his community from racial attacks). Williams retained the support of his local chapter and continued his work against segregation however, but now had opposition in both black and white communities. He was also facing repeated attempts on his life because of it. Some SNCC staff members sympathized with the idea of armed self-defense, although many on the ride to Monroe saw this as an opportunity to prove the superiority of Gandhian nonviolence over the use of force. Forman was among those who was still support of Williams. KevinCuddeback (talk) 20:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

"Freedom Ride" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Freedom Ride and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 21 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 10:03, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

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