Talk:Freedoms of the air

=Examples=

Philippine Airlines currently has a flight with a routing of MNL-MEL-SYD-MNL. Does this qualify to be described as 8th freedom rights? --58.69.182.65 08:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

=Question=

Why both the first and second right are called as "TECHNICAL FREEDOM"? --Petersimpsons 07:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Petersimpsons

=West Berlin-West Germany Flights during Cold War being considered Ninth Freedom=

I am deleting the paragraph about Pan Am's (and, although not mentioned in the article, TWA, British Airways, and Air France) flights between West Berlin and West Germany because these flights in the strictest sense were not domestic flights. Although the Federal Republic of Germany did not have passport controls on flights arriving from West Berlin, West Berlin was not legally a part of the Federal Republic of Germany until unification in 1990. Therefore, those flights cannot be considered domestic as they were flown between two political entities. Furthermore, the West German authorities had no control over the use of those airports, which remained in control of the West Berlin occupying forces (who were the ultimate sovereign during the Cold War period) who only allowed airlines from their countries to fly into West Berlin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.153.220 (talk) 05:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

= Capitalization =

The freedoms are not proper nouns, they are only colloquial shorthand, and thus should not be capitalized. The original treaty never even uses the word "freedom". Jpatokal (talk) 01:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The source that I was using to expand the article recently does use caps, so I guess that's bizarre too. I don't think it's as clear-cut as 'Fifth Freedom' or whatever is not a proper noun, perhaps you could explain why it isn't? Proper nouns are incompatible with vernacular language? That doesn't sound right. Should the word 'freedom' even appear on the page then? Well, yeah, because it's in the secondary sources about the subject (and sometimes it is capitalized). I won't be changing it back, because caps are silly and the issue is debatable, just thought I should justify the part of my contribution which was characterized as bizarre.Synchronism (talk) 03:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

= Difference between eight and ninth freedom =

After reading this, I am confused about the difference between eight and ninth freedom. How do all the examples in the section of the eight freedom "relate to one's own country"? I am also not clear what the definitions are. Is it that eight freedom apply to continuing flights, such as British Airways flying London-New York-Los Angeles, and the eight freedom is allowing passengers a stopover in New York? And would it be ninth freedom if BA were allowed to carry New York-Los Angeles passengers? What about complete flights operated in a different country, such as the various Ryanair flights within Italy? Ninth freedom? --SmilingBoy (talk) 11:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

=Merge= Suggest merge into Freedoms of the air article which provides a list of all 9 freedoms, as well as their description and history. I believe that having a specific article on Beyond rights, which is just another name for the 5th freedom, is redundant. I've already added the term to the to the more inclusive article Freedoms of the air. That addition can be seen here. Captjosh (talk) 15:06, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with this merge. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 21:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree Boleyn (talk) 21:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree. Sounds good to me. bobrayner (talk) 01:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

= External links modified =

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Freedoms of the air. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160106173720/http://www.mcgill.ca/files/iasl/chicago1944b.pdf to http://www.mcgill.ca/files/iasl/chicago1944b.pdf
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20151019113310/http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=23786 to http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=23786
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130304233224/http://www.mlit.go.jp/english/mot_news/mot_news_960627.html to http://www.mlit.go.jp/english/mot_news/mot_news_960627.html

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=Flying vs. traffic=

In the overview table, the Third and up Freedoms are described as "the right to fly...". But as the rest of the article makes clear, these are actually the rights to carry traffic, not just to fly. The examples are also misleading. For example, the 5th Freedom says
 * Description: the right to fly between two foreign countries on a flight originating or ending in one's own country
 * Example: Bangalore – London – New York by an Indian company

This is completely unclear. In fact, the 5th Freedom would more accurately be described as
 * Description: the right to carry traffic between two foreign countries on a flight originating or ending in one's own country
 * Example: carrying a passenger from London – New York on a Bangalore – London – New York flight, by an Indian company

Some of the others are also poorly phrased, e.g., 7th freedom:
 * Description: the right to fly between two foreign countries while not offering flights to one's own country
 * Example: Tokyo – Hyderabad by a Chinese company (bad example, because it overflys China)

Better would be
 * Description: the right to carry traffic between two foreign countries on flights not landing in one's own country
 * Example: Bangkok – Hyderabad by a Chinese company

Comments? --Macrakis (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

= Remove list of 5th freedom flights =

While a lot of work has been put into creating this list, it is woefully incomplete and I think it would be best just to exclude this list as trivia. Among the flights missing are several between US & Singapore (see this 2017 listing); Cathay's HKG-Vancouver-JFK flight; South African Airlines JNB-Accra-Washington and JNB-Dakar-Washington; Air New Zealand AKL-LAX-LHR; Qantas SYD-SIN-LHR; several Emirates flights from DXB (MEL & BNE via SIN; Newark via Athens, JFK via Milan; Buenos Aires via Rio de Janeiro; Phnom Pehn via Yangon ; Male via Colombo; and Singapore via Colombo (ends 28 October 2018)); Air Madagascar from Antananarivo (Madagascar) to St.Denis (Reunion Island, France) to Guangzhou (China); KLM Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur-Jakarta; Qatar Airways Doha-Phnom Pehn-Ho Chi Minh City; British Airways Johannesburg-Mauritius (not sure if its flight originating in LHR or one of their planes based in South Africa); Philippines Airlines JFK-Vancouver-Manila; Lufthansa Frankfurt-Baku-Ashgabat; Turkmenistan Airlines Ashgabat-Yerevan-Frankfurt; Turkish Airlines Istanbul-Bishkek-Ulanbataar; KLM AMS-Buenos Aires-Santiago; Qatar Doha-Sao Paulo-Buenos Aires; Turkish Istanbul-Sao Paulo-Buenos Aires; Ethiopian Addis Ababa-Sao Paulo-Buenos Aires; Emirates DXB-Sao Paulo-Santiago; LATAM Chile Santiago-Madrid-Frankfurt; Uzbekistan Airways Tashkent-Kuala Lumpur-Singapore; China Southern Guangzhou-Colombo-Male; China Eastern Shanghai-Colombo-Male; Korean Seoul-Colombo-Male; Cathay Pacific HKG-Taipei-Tokyo (Narita); KLM Amsterdam–Dammam–Muscat and Amsterdam–Kuwait City–Bahrain ; Lufthansa Frankfurt-Kuwait-Muscat; Swiss International Airways Zurich-Dubai-Muscat; Thai Airways BKK-Karachi-Muscat; Cathay Pacific HKG-Dubai-Bahrain; KLM AMS-Kuwait-Bahrain; Sky KG Airlines Bishkek–Karachi–Doha–Kuwait City and Bishkek–Lahore–Doha–Kuwait City (new airline, both services begin 28 October 2018)

There are numerous fifth freedom flights to/via Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport (BKK), including the following based on cities listed in the airport's wikipedia article: Air Mauritius (Mauritius) to Singapore; Cathay Pacific (HKG) to Singapore; Egyptair (Cairo) to HKG; Ethiopian (Addis Ababa) to HKG; EVA Air (based in Taiwan) has Vienna, LHR, & Amsterdam; Kenyan Airways (Nairobi) to Guangzhou; Malivian (from Male) to Hangzhou & Chengdu; Qatar (Doha) to Hanoi; Royal Jordanian (Amman) to HKG & Kuala Lumpur; SriLankan Airlines (Colombo) to Guangzhou; Ural Airlines (Irkutsk, Khabarovsk) to Beijing–Capital, Changchun, & Harbin, China& Ordos (Mongolia).

I've listed a few above, but several African airlines have fifth freedom rights on long-haul flights to Asia and Europe (some Ethiopian flights) and there are numerous fifth freedom flights within Africa both on African airlines as well as European/Asian airlines. There are also a large number of Trans-Tasman flights operated by non-Australian/New Zealand airlines (eg. LATAM Santiago-Aukland-Sydney; Emirates DXB-Denspar-Aukland & DXB-Melbourne-Christchurch; Singapore Airlines Singapore-Melbourne-Wellington; China Airlines Taipei-Brisbane-Aukland & Taipei-Brisbane-Christchurch). In the sparsely populated South Pacific, there are many fifth freedom flights, including United Airlines' island hopper flight that goes from Honolulu to Guam through several airports in the Marshall Islands & Federated States of Micronesia (Chuuk, Kosrae, Kwajalein, Majuro, Pohnpei) as well as Nauru Airlines' weekly Nauru–Tarawa–Majuro–Kosrae–Pohnpei flight ; other South Pacific 5th freedom routes include Fiji Airlines Nadi-Apia-Honolulu & Nadi-Kiritimati-Honolulu, Nauru Airlines Nauru-Honiara-Brisbane, Air Niugini Port Moresby-Honiara-Nadi and Port Moresby–Chuuk–Tokyo (Narita)(https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/280227/air-niugini-reduces-tokyo-service-from-oct-2018/0), and United Guam-Koror-Manila. United & Delta used to maintain hubs at Tokyo Narita Airport, but that article only lists Delta's non-US destinations as just Manila and Singapore so I don't know if those are fifth freedom (continuing flight from US) or seventh freedom (aircraft solely flying between Tokyo & Manila/Singapore) flights.

The point I am making is that there are numerous fifth freedom flights, so maintaining a list in the article will get very long and start to border on trivia that should not be included in the article. AHeneen (talk) 03:41, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

I think that a list of this information would be valuable to the community. a possible solution would be to make a new article and separate the list by the continent of origin, or continent of the stopover, similar to the way List of international airports by country is organized. additionally, I have the entire list on my computer, and am working on vetting each flight before I upload. Garzipan —Preceding undated comment added 17:20, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I would agree that the list has no place in this article. Not only is the present list too short to be useful and it would grow endlessly, but it opens the door to more lists for one thing and another, making the article bloated and unreadable. I cannot usefully comment on whether such lists are worthwhile in the first place, i.e. whether a separate page for it would be appropriate, as I disagree profoundly with the consensus habit of creating endless lists for civil aviation. WP:NOTADIRECTORY. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 04:29, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I think WP:NOTADIRECTORY and WP:TRIVIA covers why we should not have this here adequately. The list is woefully incomplete, but a complete list would be far too long for inclusion and would take constant updating as flights are added and removed from service. It would always be out of date. Keep in mind Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia and should treat the subject in a more "overview" manner. A list like this really belongs on a planespotting website, but not here. - Ahunt (talk) 12:47, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * This discussion has now run a full week and the clear consensus is that this does not belong in this article. I'll remove it, leaving the door open for a completely new article that might hold the list. - Ahunt (talk) 12:56, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

=How are non-signatories treated?= The recent air piracy issue over Belarus has brought into focus the potential consequences of flying over airspace of a nation that has not signed up to the agreement. It's not clear from this article nor the text of the agreement how non-signatories are treated in the context of any of the freedoms including in this case the first. Does anyone know this? Obviously airlines were flying over Belarus previously, and Belarussian airlines were clearly flying in and out of EU ports as well. Chalky 00:26, 26 May 2021 (UTC)