Talk:Freeganism/Archive 2

Intro
I reverted the recent changes to the intro by 24.62.190.143 back to the previous edit. It was not very descriptive and was not in line with the most common definition of freeganism.


 * Freegans are people who employ alternative strategies for living based on limited participation in the conventional economy and minimal consumption of resources. Freegans embrace community, generosity, social concern, freedom, cooperation, and sharing in opposition to a society based on materialism, moral apathy, competition, conformity, and greed..

This describes a whole lot of people who are not freegans. The definition must include reference to the fact that "freegan" comes from the words "free" and "vegan", and why. Mycota 20:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

On "Popular mostly among North American anti-capitalists"
Hi all,

I just thought I'd add a comment about freeganism being primarily a movement by North American anti-capitalists. In fact, my first exposure to what is here called freeganism was a film by Agnes Varda whose English title is "The Gleaners and I". The film begins with the Jean-Francois Millet painting of women gathering wheat after the harvest, showing that there is a long history of people collecting what is discarded by others. Then she continues with an exploration of those in the French countryside who search already-reaped fields for discarded vegetables, and moves on to those who search the markets and dumpsters in urban centres (especially Paris) with the same objective.

"Gleaning" is protected by French law and has been for a very long time. I am sure that many other countries also protect the rights of citizens who wish to gather food that is unwanted by the owners of the fields or of the market stalls.

Of course, freeganism is not only about food. It is also about gathering other useful objects that society has cast off. Varda also explores this phenomenon in her documentary. This is a wonderful film and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in freeganism beyond North America's borders. Essie Ash 02:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

This whole "article" is asinine
It should be removed. Anyone who really believes the bullshit they're selling is running a commune somewhere. The article is pure bullshit.
 * What's wrong with communes? Just b/c you don't like the politics of these (intelligent) people doesn't mean an article on a notable cultural phenomenon should be removed. Anyone who really believes the Bullshit justification for the war in Iraq is probably not very thoughtful, but that doesn't mean the article on the war in Iraq should be deleted. The Ungovernable Force 01:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree, the article has merit and will grow over time. The number of people choosing to drop out of the "system" via freegan means is growing.  Freeganism could be called simple living libertarianism instead, but it is a bit of a mouthful. --86.133.21.82 08:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

George Orwell in 'The Road To Wigan Pier' describes how unemployed coal-workers would scavenge through the coal mine waste heaps for discarded coal. There is also a history of peasants setting up clandestine gardens on land barred to them (for example, as hunting/game land in English history) by their feudal oppressors. What is unique regarding freeganism is that, unlike the scavenging of the poor and the homeless throughout history, most freegans choose their lifestyle. I also disagree- and as a practicing, squatting freegan- with the actual political potential of the movement, and see it as a means of harm minimisation and as a way of escaping obligatory labour. It is not sustainable at a high level of participants, where bins begin getting locked up and freegans- which has occurred with some of my friends- begin getting charged with theft. It is a limited lifestyle option dependent upon the over-production of capitalism, but no way to defeat capitalism. It does however have ideological value in as far as it frees participants from market mystification and suggests alternative possibilities of living. But the main problem is that i know now too many 'activists' who pour all their energies into freegan lifestyles- which often get imbued with romanticisations of early forms of human scavenging, which equally are no longer sustainable en masse given the plantet's present population, nor means of freeing one from subordination to basic need (i would much rather spend my days painting than scavenging for my dinner through a prairie)- rather than directly attacking capitalism. One we remove the system that exploits both people and the planet, then we will finally stop climate change. Thus i believe the article needs to include a critique of the political efficacy of freeganism, and its realistic sustainability. I am presently writing an essay on this matter, so will return with more to add.

vegan responses
added a short paragraph on some typical vegan responses. this is not meant to be hostile and was done in the spirit of npov. opted not to put it under its own criticisms sub heading as it is v. short. included reference to derogatory term "opportunivore" because it is in wide usage. frymaster 20:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Intro again
The current intro is wrong; freeganism is not "commonly understood as the practice of abstaining from any consumer goods". The previous intro, and the one to which I reverted, is correct:
 * Freeganism is commonly understood as the practice of abstaining from the consumption of foods that contain animal products, except in those cases where the food is obtained for free. The word "freegan" is a portmanteau of the words free and vegan.

There are people who may abstain from "any consumer goods", but the term to describe them is not "freegan". Some freegans may also abstain from "any consumer goods", but this does not describe freeganism as a whole. Kellen T 09:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * well, then the intro should mention the competing ideas. I've always understood it as trying to not buy anything. The Ungovernable Force 17:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You've understood it incorrectly then. I know of no term for people who "try not to buy anything", if you know what they might be called, it would certainly be appropriate to compare it to freeganism in the intro. I'm going to revert to the version of the intro that correctly describes freeganism. Kellen T 18:22, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Since this is the first hit on google for "freeganism", I think I probably am not incorrect. The truth is, there are probably two competing definitions (I'm pretty sure the article used to reflect that). I'm changing the intro to reflect that there are two competing definitions and I'm adding a factual accuracy dispute tag until this can be correctly worked out.The Ungovernable Force 04:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If you read down in the article, you'll see, at the end of the "basic concepts" section:
 * There is some disagreement about the definition of freeganism. Some freegans consume meat, as long as they don't pay for it; others still abstain from meat even when they find it for free. Some freegans, represented by the freegan.info website claim that "freeganism is a broad-based lifestyle ethic encompassing food, housing, transportation, clothing, and all other necessities of daily life"; however, the addition of many non-food-related items to the definition of freegan does not reflect the most common historical usage of the term.
 * The term "freegan" in general usage is about diet. The other use of the term is mentioned in the article already, and I would argue, not really representative of reality. Freegans obviously do acquire other items from dumpster diving, but so does anyone else who bothers to look in the trash. In my memory, of the (over 10 but less than 20) self-described freegans I have known personally, all of them purchased consumer goods on a regular basis. What I think sites like freegan.info are doing is trying to push the idea that one can find many useful things in the trash, and this is true, but strictly living based upon that principle is incredibly rare at best.
 * Lastly, if you were yourself an anticapitalist dumpster diver who never dumpstered food, you would not call yourself "freegan". Likewise if you dumpstered food but had no regard for vegan ethics. Kellen T 17:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you cite a source that says the term has historically refered to food only? The Ungovernable Force 03:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the intro should mention the articles on frugality and simple living as competing ideas on the proper conceptualization of freeganism. Eplebel 19:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea, be bold, and put it in yourself. Mdotley 23:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

In France
A three minutes report today about New York freegans on the evening news of the main French television channel, TF1.Hektor 18:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Any links so we can put info in? That's pretty cool. The Ungovernable Force 04:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Costing the Earth
The BBC have just broadcast a 30 hour program on Freeganism on their Costing the Earth Show you can listen again to it. I won't link on main page as the link will only work for the next week. --Salix alba (talk) 14:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization
I added some subheadings, moved some info around, and fixed a bunch of other miscellaneous minor things. Any comment? Mdotley 20:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Buddhism
It might be nice to make note of the similarity between the historical practice of Buddhist vegetarianism and the Freegan ethical argument.

Are all Buddhists vegetarians?
 * If meat was what a householder chose to offer, it was to be accepted without discrimination or aversion. To reject such an offering would be an offense against hospitality and would deprive the householder of an opportunity to gain merit -- and it could not benefit the animal, because it was already dead. Even the Jains may have had a similar outlook during the same period of history, despite the strict doctrine of ahimsa.

-Reagle 22:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Theft
Since when was stealing considered freeganism? I see shoplifting is mentioned, and later under criticisms theft is used as a basis for critique of the lifestyle. How can anyone calling themselves a freegan steal? It doesn't prevent waste and adds to costs just like buying the good would, only at someone else's expense. Besides that, it's completely unethical. I agree with the critique of theft as a means of freeganism, but I don't think it should even be related to the subject. The subject should be removed from the article unless any credible source can show that shoplifting etc are held to be part of the freegan ethic. Richard001 07:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

while i can't agree that theft if "completely unethical", i definitely agree that shoplifting is not freegan in any way. every freegan i've ever known understands that stealing meat still creates a demand for the meat, therefore not solving the problem that freeganism trys to solve. Murderbike 20:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section
Okay, the criticisms section here has mutated into a point-counter-point argument about freeganism. the purpose of criticisms section should be primarily to present criticism and only secondarily to rebut said criticisms. addressing the criticisms should be done in the main body of the article. i plan on addressing this sometime in the future. -- frymaster 19:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

problems
This article seems to be somewhat abandoned, and has definitely devolved into a mess. The external link section is full of spam, also. I'll probably rewrite later today or tommorow, so nobody freak out. Natalie 16:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

...
This is the most ridiculous article I've stumbled upon in a long time. Why is there nothing in the AfD about teenage romantic thought? Either this article needs to be neutralified or, you know, deleted. (Nbmatt 22:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC))

Is This a Joke?
I agree: This is one of the loopiest things I've read on Wikipedia in a long time. It sounds like a Swiftian parody that people started taking seriously. I'd delete it. Joseph N Hall 04:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Freeganism is a real thing... I can't speak to the quality of this article, though. Kellen T 05:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they're definitely real. Natalie 12:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Definitely a real thing. A quick glance makes me think the article needs cleaning up, but definitely real.  Ungovernable Force  Poll: Which religious text should I read? 16:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Famous Freegans
Mick soft []

Article is in some ways misleading. I'll try and correct it some time in the future.
As such, this is a note to self of a type.

Basically, simply digging stuff out of a rubbish bin doesn't constitute freeganism. Besides, freegans tend to dig out food that is uneaten, not partly eaten (though it does depend). Meh, I'll fix it up when I have teh time. I ate jelly 10:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved from the Lede
THis is unsourced, only sourced definitions belong in the Lede: "is a term with several different definitions depending on one's lens of interpretation. For many a "Freegan" is simply an individual who enjoys and seeks out free food.  This includes food samples typically found in grocery stores or markets, food courts, demonstrations, or in some cases garbage. For this camp of Freegans there is little to no ulterior agenda.  On a more extreme and political scale" --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times article
Hi, FYI there is a full and well-written article by Erika Hayasaki in a recent Los Angeles Times. Full of useful info and quotes. Benjiboi 00:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Not just food
Freegans attempt to not contribute to demand for products in more ways then just food. They also will salvage other material, squat and so on. (Not a freegan, but good friend to many.) can you say moo? Ⓐ 00:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)