Talk:Freemasonry in South Africa

Article needs reworking
This article needs to be completely reworked. It is very badly written and has many inaccuracies. The citations are also poor. I'll try to fix some of this. Pepe Oats (talk) 05:06, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be possible, and worthwhile, to split the article into a "Freemasonry in South Africa" article, and a "Grandlodge of South Africa" article. Pepe Oats (talk) 14:52, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Grandmasters
Barry Ne, I might be mistaken, but I think you have conflated thr office of Worshipful Master of the Good Hope lodge with the District Grand Master National. This is an easy mistake to make, do to the similar titles, but one is a grand lodge level office with the ability to issue warrants and has authority over the lodges in a district, while one only has authority over a particular lodge. Pepe Oats (talk) 18:43, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela

 * Barry Ne, I see that you have deleted Nelson Mandela from the list of South African freemasons. I did, contrary to your explanation, supply a reliable source. (The MWPHGL of North Carolina's official history). Seeing that you've included other individuals on the list you don't have any mention outside of anti-masonic christian fringe papers, I don't see the issue in including someone who the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of North Carolina has confirmed to have been initiated. EDIT: I must apologize, as I seem to have jumped the gun, I was mistaken, it was not removed.
 * Pepe Oats (talk) 16:45, 30 October 2018 (UTC)


 * User:Zazpot the citation is not fringe, as the author was one of the leading Prince Hall Freemasonry historians. The Library of Congress can corroborate the claim that Walkes was a major Prince Hall historian. He was the founder of the Phylaxis Society.


 * https://www.loc.gov/item/lcwa00087629/


 * The book I cited was an official history of the MWPHGLNC. The MWGL is selling the book as a reliable spurce, and the MWGL itself is a reliable source, so I don't see how it's fringe or unverifiable.


 * https://www.mwphglnc.org/product/mwphglnc-history-book/


 * Moreoever, the claim is again corroborated by the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Illinois.


 * https://mwphglil.com/famous.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepe Oats (talk • contribs) 16:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The claim is WP:FRINGE.
 * Per your LoC link, the author you are referring to is Joseph A. Walkes, Jr. Let's look at his bibliography:


 * {| class="wikitable"

! Year ! Title ! Publisher ! Relevant WP:RS/WP:NPOV concerns ! Notes
 * 1981
 * Black Square & Compass: 200 Years of Prince Hall Freemasonry
 * Macoy Pub. and Masonic Supply Co.
 * WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:BIASED
 * Publisher purveys literature supporting WP:FRINGE theories such as tarot and astrology.
 * 1986
 * Jno G. Lewis, Jr. - end of an era: History of the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Louisiana, 1842-1979
 * Joseph A. Walkes, Jr.
 * WP:SELFPUB
 * 1989
 * Prince Hall Masonic Quiz Book
 * Macoy Pub. and Masonic Supply Co.
 * WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:BIASED
 * Publisher purveys literature supporting WP:FRINGE theories such as tarot and astrology.
 * 1993
 * History of the Shrine, 1893–1993: Ancient Egyptian Arabic Order, Nobles of the Mystic Shrine
 * Inc.
 * WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:BIASED
 * "Inc." seems to be an imprint of the Prince Hall Grand Lodge.
 * 1993
 * Outside the Pale?
 * Journal of Mormon History
 * WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:BIASED
 * A letter, not a peer-reviewed article. The central point of the letter was rebutted by a historian who has been peer-reviewed.
 * 2001-2006
 * Joseph A. Walkes, Jr. web site
 * Joseph A. Walkes, Jr.
 * WP:SELFPUB
 * }
 * 2001-2006
 * Joseph A. Walkes, Jr. web site
 * Joseph A. Walkes, Jr.
 * WP:SELFPUB
 * }
 * WP:SELFPUB
 * }
 * }


 * Walkes seems to meet the lowest bar for a historian: to have written one or more ostensibly non-fiction works of history and to have had them published. But this does not mean that Walkes is necessarily a WP:RS. In particular, none of his works seem to have been through a peer review process before publication, and some of them were published by WP:QUESTIONABLE publishers, as noted above.


 * The LoC page you linked to does describe Walkes as a "prolific Prince Hall Masonic author and historian", but makes no claim as to Walkes's reliability or importance.


 * Anyone can found a society, and self-publish a circular. I see no evidence that this makes Walkes a WP:RS, nor that it makes the claim that Mandela was a Freemason anything other than WP:FRINGE.


 * "Official" in this instance seems to mean that it is the MWPHGLNC's self-published account of itself. This makes it WP:QUESTIONABLE, particularly in relation to "self-serving [or] exceptional claim[s]".


 * First of all, you haven't presented any evidence that an entity called (or abbreviated as) "MWGL" is selling the book (you gave a link to the MWPHGLNC shop, but not to an MWGL shop). Secondly, it seems unlikely that a bookseller would hold itself liable for the accuracy of a book that it sells, except perhaps if it was published by the bookseller. Thirdly, even if the "MWGL" did claim that the book is reliable, that does not mean that the book is, in fact, reliable.


 * The "MWGL" is not necessarily a WP:RS. See WP:QUESTIONABLE. Even if it were a WP:RS, it would, given the obvious conflict of interest, have to be considered WP:BIASED.


 * That website cites no evidence: it just gives a bald claim, without any detail to back up the assertion. Again, this does not seem to be a WP:RS and due to the obvious conflict of interest, should be considered WP:BIASED. Zazpot (talk) 02:09, 1 November 2018 (UTC)