Talk:Freeze (art exhibition)

Verification
Stephen Park and Steven Adamson need to be verified as having been inlcuded in the show. Tyrenius 21:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Park is mentioned in a Tate essay as part of the YBA crowd. Tyrenius 21:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Park and Steve Adamson were definately in the show. I saw it, I have the catalogue and they are both listed. Admittedly Dominic Denis is also listed but he wasn't in the show. If I remember correctly Damien didn't think his work fitted in.

Some things you may not know about Freeze, that I can't verify, but I know because I was there.

Please verify whatever you can.

Prior to Freeze, Damien was working for a few weeks at the blue-chip gallery Anthony D'offays. He told me that he stole the mailing list, which contained the names and addresses of the wealthiest and most serious art collectors in Europe and America. He produced a catalogue to look like the catalogues these collectors were familiar with, designed by a familiar designer, photographs by a familiar photographer. Everyone on the mailing list recieved a catalogue, sent to them in the post gratis. When these collectors started sniffing around the show (which was not until the second part, Freeze was in two parts) the fashionable dealers from London naturally felt they might be left out of the party, they had to make their moves. This was an interesting spectacle, and for a couple of weeks there was a lot of nervous indecision. I think Damien had called their bluffs. Remember Damien was a second year student!

Damiens criteria for inclusion in the show, (the original intention was that curating it was to be a collective endevour, but Damien very quickly took unilateral decisions, and he was doing all the work):

Artists who already had galleries, or had sold work to gallerists, or had serious interest from galleries were invited, i.e. Ian Davenport (Waddington), Gary hume (Karsten Schubert). Fiona Rae had sold a painting to Karsten Schubert. Other artist may have already had links with Galleries. Galerists did not particularly support their artist taking part in this show. I believe i am right in thinking Grenville Davey was instructed not to take part by Nicholas Logsdale of the Lisson Gallery.

Friends of Damien were invited. I. e. Angus Fairhurst, Matt Collishaw, Angela Bulloch ( Damiens girlfriend at the time)

Artist who had enjoyed a good reputation at goldsmiths college were also invited.

There was obviously some crossover between these three groups. It is interesting to see which artists have risen to prominence.

Goldsmiths already enjoyed attention from galleries at this time in the wake of the success of Julian Opie and Lisa Milroy.

Thepeopleschum 11:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately first hand experience by a Wiki editor does not count as a valid source on Wiki.--Kbob (talk) 02:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

A quibble, or is it just me?
"Furthermore, some of the artists in Freeze did not make it into the pantheon of the YBAs." this is a bit problematic. Surely anyone who is Young, and british, and an artist is by definition a Young British Artist. (though I know it also means something more specific, though what is quite hard to characterize). To say that any artist, who by default is young and british, didn't make it as one, is awkward. I think what you meant was "didn't make it into the commercial artworld". The problem with this is that it might be taken to imply that "making it" was a primary ambition. In my experience this presumption becomes irrititating to artists of all kinds even when accurate, though it is often isn't. Thepeopleschum 16:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've changed wording re pantheon. Young British Arists was the title Saatchi used for shows, as you may know, so it has a specific meaning for a group of artists, and others who became associated with them, so we're talking about the Young British Artists, not young British artists, as there were plenty of the latter not counted as the former. Please add to the article anything you think will improve it. Tyrenius 00:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"Pantheon?"
Thanks for removing "make it". I wonder if "pantheon" is not somewhat overblown. It may be that its just not a word I am quick to use. I take its loosest definintion to mean "hall of fame". I recognise the impact of the show and the personal success stories that sprang from it, but I don't really see many names that can be said to have entered any kind of pantheon; Damien Hirst notwithstanding. Would you object if I changed the sentence to read, "Furthermore, some of the artists in Freeze are yet to appear on the international art scene" ?. RegardsThepeopleschum 09:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest you plough into the article and do with it what you will, adding any info you think suitable. It can always be re-edited if anyone disagrees. See WP:BRD. I'd like to see some of the unique insights that I think you can include. If they're not challenged, then they remain. However, as you asked re "Furthermore, some of the artists in Freeze are yet to appear on the international art scene", the wording implies that they will do one day, whereas this is not necessarily the case at all, so maybe something like: "Furthermore, some of the artists in Freeze did not receive the same attention as others on the international art scene". Tyrenius 01:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits
This edit is inaccurate and doesn't follow the source. The text now reads, "Freeze was organized by Angus Fairhurst". The source says:
 * He [Fairhurst] had organised a student show in February 1988 which was seen as a precursor to the Freeze exhibition Hirst orchestrated in July 1988. Fairhurst, along with 16 other Goldsmith students, was instrumental in Freeze.

The original article text was accurate:
 * Angus Fairhurst was a final year student at Goldsmiths College, London, who had organised a show of student work in February 1988, which was a precursor to the Freeze exhibition which occurred in July that year.

Edits are taking out mentions of Hirst. He is key to the show and synonymous with it. His photo should be retained. The advert tag is inappropriate.

Material is being taken out as "POV", where it is a fairly standard statement about the show, albeit maybe not referenced. These edits do not seem informed.

 Ty  02:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ty, thanks for your comments. It seems you care a lot about this article. I am trying to improve it and bring it up to Wiki standards. If you could find some reliable references and citations that would go along way to making it better. Unreferenced material is subject to challenge and removal according to Wiki guidelines. The article is very poorly written and needs lots of cleanup. Currently there is only one reference. I will look at it again and adjust the section on Fairhurst and Hirst to make it accurate if it is not accurate now. Let's work together to make this a good article.--Kbob (talk) 02:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (multiple ec) Hi Keith, it is an important article, and I just want to inject a note of caution. I welcome your input and you are quite right that it needs attention. I have put some material in, in the past, but unfortunately at a time when there was not the current emphasis on close textual referencing. I did come across some interesting material, such as, for example, that it was not actually held in a warehouse, but an administration block. That needs re-rechecking, but certainly some sources state it was the old Port of London Authority building: Independent and BBC.


 * I am concerned that Hirst's role is being downgraded, when sources all state his major place. The fact that Hirst first met Saatchi there is of significance, and informative for the reader, because of its subsequent effect. I don't have a lot of time to edit at the moment, I'm afraid, but if you post any dubious statements here, I'll see if I can find a source. Here's one statement with a ref: "A 1988 show entitled Freeze, financed by the now defunct Olympia & York (the developers of Canary Wharf)"


 *  Ty  03:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I won't make anymore edits for a few days. This should give you a chance to find some reliable sources which is the foundation of any Wiki article. If you need more time let me know. --Kbob (talk) 02:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I can't guarantee time to edit right now, I won't hold you up, so please go ahead. It would be good if you went to sources (plentiful) to add material.  Ty  03:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks. My intention is to stay true to the sources. Lets' see how it goes. I welcome your input. --Kbob (talk) 16:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Fairhurst and Hirst
At the present time this entire article is founded on a few sentences from an obituary. Those sentences, taken from an article in The Independent read as follows: It says Hirst orchestrated Freeze and Fairhurst was instrumental in the exhibition. That is how I have represented it in the article and given the above as a citation. Any copy that contradicts the above source is opinion and point of view unless a reliable source is cited. As you know, opinion and point of view are not permitted in Wiki articles. WP:NPOV. I hope you can find some sources so we can clean up the article and remove the banners. Peace! --Kbob (talk) 02:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Born in Kent, Fairhurst graduated from art school in 1989, the same year as Hirst. He had organised a student show in February 1988 which was seen as a precursor to the Freeze exhibition Hirst orchestrated in July 1988. Fairhurst, along with 16 other Goldsmith students, was instrumental in Freeze. It was there that the work of the Young British Artists caught the attention of the collector Charles Saatchi, and also put British art at the forefront of the international contemporary arts scene."
 * That's correct. I was referring above to an edit[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Freeze_(exhibition)&diff=prev&

oldid=301107072] which you have now changed.  Ty  03:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good I'm glad I got it right, thanks. --Kbob (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hirst
This article is about Freeze, the exhibition. The only valid copy about Hirst is that which is directly related to the article subject ie. Freeze. Hirst's background, education, feelings, accomplishments, inspirations and most importantly his photo are not relevant to this article. If Hirst is notable then he can have his own Wiki article with his photo. A photo of the Freeze exhibition would be appropriate for the article, but not a photo of Hirst. Thanks for your help and understanding. --Kbob (talk) 02:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that it has to be relevant to Freeze, but the organiser of Freeze is relevant to Freeze, and a photo of the organiser is relevant. A photo of other artists participating would be relevant, but Hirst's is the most important. Also material that is a precedent to or legacy of Freeze is relevant.  Ty  03:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * HI Ty, thanks for the comments. My understanding is that this event, Freeze, was an exhibition of art and not a performance, correct?--Kbob (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

That's a moot point. Nominally it was an exhibition. However, the least discussed aspect of it is the exhibits. One of the most notable aspects (as in frequently highlighted in sources now mentioning it) is Hirst's entrepreneurial drive and skills, and that these involved visits to the show by art world luminaries, particularly Nicholas Serota, Norman Rosenthal and Charles Saatchi, the latter's visit being particularly stressed because of later developments. Hirst going off in a taxi to collect Rosenthal is an example of this. It is also seen as demonstrating how Hirst stood out above the other participants. The professionalism of its presentation is also pointed to, with a proper printed catalogue, the energy behind which, if I recall correctly, Hirst is also credited with.

It is now seen as legendary, seminal etc., and has accrued a mythological status. The examination of this compared with the reality is a necessary feature of a complete article. It seems that more people now claim to have visited it than the total number of visitors during the show. Those invigilating at the time say it was mostly fairly empty and not much notice was generally taken of it, although the BBC did make a documentary. The show is now virtually synonymous with Damien Hirst. The actual role of the others at the time needs to be shown also.

The other now-notable aspect is that it brought together a number of people (students at Goldsmiths, University of London), most of whom later formed the core of the Young British Artists in Saatchi's shows of the same name, which added more artists to the mix.

As a show, it incorporated a diversity of approaches, which included modes of performance. Hirst's own work in it was somewhat unremarkable.

The perfect article "is nearly self-contained; it includes essential information and terminology, and is comprehensible by itself, without requiring significant reading of other articles." We don't need a comprehensive history of Hirst, but there should be enough to enable the reader to understand the basics of the significance of Freeze in his career, and his input into Freeze. This applies to other involved individuals also. Readers should not be sent all over wikipedia just to gain a knowledge of essential significant material, only to gain a deeper picture of such.

 Ty  03:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * With all due respect Ty, this is all your personal opinion and original research, which has no place in a Wiki article. If you have sources for what you say above then please provide them and add that content to the article. I support you in this endeavor. Peace!--Kbob (talk) 18:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we differ in our interpretation of respect. You asked a question and I answered it to give you some pointers to help, as you don't seem to know much about the subject or have done any research on it. I work from sources and the information is per NPOV from sources which I have read widely. I don't base material or comments on my personal opinion or on original research. That is a quite unwarranted accusation. If you want to improve the article, then research it. Here are just a few sources which cover some of the points I made. Hirst's prime position is clearly indicated for a start. I've already told you I don't have time to edit at the moment. I hope this material will be of help to you.


 * 1988 Damien Hirst, 23, organises Freeze, an exhibition by 16 students at Goldsmiths College including Angus Fairhurst, Gary Hume and Sarah Lucas in a Docklands warehouse. Among the visitors is collector Charles Saatchi.
 * Jackie Wullschlager on 20 years of the YBAs. Financial Times (London); Oct 18, 2008; Jackie Wullschlager; p. 3
 * Now in his mid-forties, Hume was a founder member of the Young British Artists. He took part in Damien Hirst's seminal Freeze exhibition, 20 years ago.
 * Double trouble. The Independent (London); Jun 23, 2008; Tom Lubbock; p. 14
 * It's two decades since Hume's generation of students at Goldsmiths College stormed the art world. Led by a spirited 23-year-old Damien Hirst, the group staged a knock-out two-part show in an empty Port Authority building in London's Docklands in 1988. Freeze, as it was called, was seen by Tate's Nicholas Serota and the collector Charles Saatchi, among others, and is often cited as a watershed in British art, ushering in the infamous Young British Artists movement of the 1990s.
 * The doors that unhinged the establishment. The Daily Telegraph (London); Jun 14, 2008; Alastair Sooke; p. 4
 * a Goldsmiths student called Damien Hirst put on a show in Docklands called Freeze. Among its visitors was Charles Saatchi, who bought a single work, Bullet Hole, by Matt Collishaw
 * Britart's lost queen? The Independent on Sunday (London); Mar 18, 2007; Charles Darwent; p. 4
 * Landy took part in the 1988 Freeze exhibition (curated by Damien Hirst) which launched so many of the YBAs.
 * The experts' guide to Frieze. Evening Standard (London); Oct 10, 2006; p. 40
 * A graduate of Goldsmith's art college, Davenport was one of the few painters to emerge out of the now-legendary Damien Hirst- curated Freeze exhibition of 1988 ("Really, very few people saw it,'' he says, laughing).
 * Dance to the music of lines. The Daily Telegraph (London); Aug 19, 2006; SERENA DAVIES; p. 006
 * the legendary Freeze exhibition organised by Damien Hirst that kick-started the YBA (Young British Artist) movement.
 * Turning to stone. The Times (London); May 24, 2006; Charlotte Mullins; p. 15
 * the now mythical Freeze show curated by Damien Hirst nearly 20 years ago.
 * Daily Telegraph
 * Freeze, the exhibition organised by Damien Hirst which is credited with launching the careers of the YBAs (Young British Artists).
 * One tree, a silver lining and a forest of natural beauty. Scotsman (Edinburgh); Jun 28, 2005; SUSAN MANSFIELD; p. 32
 * Damien Hirst's groundbreaking 1988 show Freeze
 * Art exhibition review: Simon Patterson. Scotland on Sunday (Edinburgh); Mar 6, 2005; Iain Gale; p. 9
 * Davenport took part in Damien Hirst's seminal Freeze exhibition in 1988
 * Reviews: John McLean - New Works Ian Davenport. Scotsman (Edinburgh); Nov 25, 2003; SUSAN MANSFIELD; p. 15
 * Damien Hirst's ground-breaking show, Freeze
 * In praise of the female nude. The Independent (London); Nov 10, 2003; Louise Jury; p. 3
 * Hirst's legendary Freeze exhibition
 * Weekend: Living with a young master. The Guardian (Manchester); Jun 21, 2003; Susie Steiner; p. 22
 * Damien Hirst's landmark Freeze exhibition
 * glossy side of Brit Art. Aidan Dunne, Art C; Irish Times (Dublin); Apr 5, 2003; p. 55
 * It was Hirst's 1988 show Freeze that turned Charles Saatchi's attention away from the American minimalists.
 * Saatchi: the collector's issue. The Guardian (Manchester); Apr 4, 2003; Hadley Freeman; p. 11
 * Damien Hirst's legendary Freeze show
 * The future's bright. The Times (London); Mar 1, 2003; Rose Aidin; p. 30
 * the Freeze exhibition of 1988, which was curated by Damien Hirst and launched the YBAs
 * Look back in pride. The Spectator (London); Dec 14/Dec 21, 2002; Andrew Lambirth; p. 92
 * The Freeze exhibition was crucial to the impact of the YBAs because it was visited by collector Charles Saatchi, Sir Norman Rosenthal of the Royal Academy and Sir Nicholas Serota, who had just been appointed director of the Tate Gallery, all of whom championed their work.
 * 20 years on, celebrating the work of the not so Young British Artists. Evening Standard (London); Jul 31, 2008; TERRY KIRBY; p. 16
 * In 1988, a group of enterprising art students at London's Goldsmiths College decided to make sure their final-year degree shows were noticed. Traditionally, degree shows involved the artist sitting among their work in their dusty studio, like a spider in a web, hoping that people other than friends and family would stop and take a look. However, this lot, led by Damien Hirst and including Fiona Rae, Angela Bulloch and Ian Davenport, hired a warehouse, put together a professional catalogue, gave the show a snappy title and invited along important art world people, such as Nicholas Serota of the Tate, and Norman Rosenthal from the Royal Academy. A collector called Charles Saatchi also came along, and liked what he saw. And the rest is history. The event, Freeze, has passed into legend as the touchpaper for the Young British Artist phenomenon. Like the Sex Pistols gig at the 100 Club, if all the people who now claim to have been at the show actually had, it would have had to have taken over the Tate Modern.
 * Now showing. The Times (London); May 27, 2000; Lottie Moggach; p. 23
 * Freeze: 20 years on: In 1988, in a dingy Docklands warehouse, 16 young artists took part in a show organised by a student called Damien Hirst. The rest is art history.
 * The Observer (article about Freeze)
 * In July 1988, somewhere around the release of Crocodile Dundee and the launch of Prozac, an art show was staged in London's Docklands that has entered modern art history as a cataclysmic happening on a par with the Cabaret Voltaire and the Salon des Refusés (the exhibition held in 1863 for works that had been rejected from the official Paris Salon, including Manet's Déjeuner Sur l'Herbe). Organised mainly by Damien Hirst with support from Carl Freedman (now a gallerist and curator), the artist Abigail Lane and the late Angus Fairhurst, Freeze was, Hirst has said, 'the kind of exhibition that everybody says they saw and hardly anybody did'.
 * the all-important art world connections - the names that needed to be attracted to see the work, notably the Royal Academy's Norman Rosenthal, the Tate's Sir Nicholas Serota and collector Charles Saatchi. These three, and a few others, were presented with a selection of items whose cohesion, if there was one, lay in the fact that Goldsmiths did not differentiate between painting and sculpture ('It's just like, you go there and you can do anything,' Hirst said in 1992) - and this resulted in a dominance of confident mixed-media work.
 * The keen merchants who did make their way to the London Port Authority building were treated to the sight of a pile of crumpled metal by Sarah Lucas, a door painted by Gary Hume, light bulbs switching on and off by Angela Bulloch and tiny pencil drawings by Richard Patterson. 'I felt reasonably confident in them,' says Patterson, 'insofar as you can be confident in an isolated set of six drawings, but I didn't feel confident about the idea of showing. It was premature for me. Everyone else seemed more intent on doing their growing up in public... I remember some poor bastard doing a performance in the exhibition space where he buried himself naked in a mound of earth with only a breathing tube.
 * Hirst, generous to his friends, devoted his considerable energy to the hanging and promotion of Freeze - gathering both the money needed for the exhibition as well as sponsorship for a well-designed and professionally written catalogue. His own contribution to the show took the form of some painted boxes stuck in a pattern on to the wall, and the first spot painting - also painted on to the wall
 * Nobody, least of all the artists, is pretending that the work shown at Freeze was great; they mostly recall cleaning the space, being bossed about by Damien, and the irritation of fellow students who had been excluded from this court. Richard Patterson remembers thinking that Hirst's was 'solid student work - neither good nor bad, but intelligent and honest.
 * Abigail Lane ... remembers sitting in a white space in an administrative block to which 'nobody came'. But Freeze was professionally presented, with proper money and a catalogue
 * FREEZE: 20 YEARS ON. The Observer (London); Jun 1, 2008; Jessica Berens; p. 40 (article about Freeze)

 Ty  06:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Ty, thanks for the response. I'm sorry you feel insulted. That was not my intention. I want to work together with you. It looks like you have done a lot of research. Nice job. Now please incorporate them into the article. Wiki is a community project. I did not write this article. I am merely editing what is already there. Wiki policy says that material that is un-sourced may be challenged and removed. The best way to defend the existing copy is to add sources. I have done this for the top half of the article. It would be great if you also made some contributions directly to the article since I see that you really care about it. Adding information and references from your research would be a great contribution to the article and to Wiki. Peace brother--Kbob (talk) 12:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You said my comments were my personal point of view and original research. That is insulting for an editor: it wasn't true. The comments were based on sources. That is not original research, merely unreferenced, which is entirely different. It seems to me now that you made your response, because you had not made this differentiation.  A better response would have been to have asked what sources I based my comments on, rather than make an accusation that they were not based on sources.


 * "Material that is unsourced may be challenged and removed." This should be done in the interest of the article, i.e. where it is suspected that the information is incorrect. To remove material that is known to be correct (especially where there is a reference sitting on the talk page) is detrimental to the encyclopedia, and therefore not a sound practice, at least violating WP:POINT, if not actual vandalism.


 * I have explained twice already that I do not have the time to edit properly at the moment. Wikipedia is a collaborative project: it is also a volunteer project, and we choose what time to allocate to it. There should be no pressure on editors to contribute their time. I am happy to search out sources for any statements you want verified. I have posted to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts, which may bring some help. Well done on citations to date. "Art superstar and media-sensation" should either be in quotes and referenced, or removed as an epithet. At the moment it stands as an editorial comment, i.e. POV.


 *  Ty  02:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ty, the words "Art superstar and media-sensation" are taken directly from the source document cited in that sentence. Feel free to put them in quotes if you like or remove them if you feel they are in violation of Wiki policy. Thanks for all your help with the article.--Kbob (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hirst photo
The photo of Damien Hirst has been removed from the article. It is entirely appropriate to have an image of the figure who was the main organiser of the show and whose name is recurrently identified with it in sources (see references in previous section).  Ty  02:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand that Hirst is a central figure in the organizing of the exhibition but the article is not about Hirst it is about Freeze. I would welcome photos of the exhibition but I object to a photo of Hirst. As a compromise I would accept a photo of Hirst with Freeze in the background. What do other editors think?--Kbob (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As organizer of the exhibition, the picture is apt. Hirst's photo is positively appropriate...Modernist (talk) 12:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hirst has his own article and this article is not about him. The picture is jarring and should be removed. Abductive (talk) 12:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is the only picture currently in the article; no further debate is needed. If we had sweveral available images there might be an issue, but we don't. (adds) Keep it! Johnbod (talk) 13:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Johnbod and Abductive that the picture of Hirst is not appropriate for these reasons: 1) there are no other photos ie. of the subject of the article 2) It is a small article and the photo looks out of place. 3) Hirst is barely mentioned in the article. 4)The photo is not pleasing or professional 5) Hirst has his own article.  I have already removed the photo once and feel it should be removed again.--Kbob (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I read Johnbod as wanting to retain the image. I've asked him to clarify. 1) Having a lack of photos is not a reason to remove photos; it's a reason to find more. 3) Having a small article is not a reason to make it smaller and even less informative: it's a reason to expand it and add content, a substantial amount of which needs to be added. 3) If Hirst is barely mentioned, then that is a deficiency of the article: I have given plenty of refs above to show his key role and importance for this show. 4) Disagree. It is a good photo. 5) Read WP:SUMMARY. This article should have sufficient material on Hirst for the reader to understand how his background and character informed the show.  For a complete biog, the main article on him is available. 6) WP:BRD. You removed. An uninvolved editor reverted. We are now discussing. When consensus is arrived at, it is the appropriate time to take further editing action. To act before then is edit warring.  Ty  01:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As now clarified above, I'm for keeping the pic! Johnbod (talk) 01:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to throw in one more opinion, I also think the photo should stay. A photo of the exhibition for the intro would be nice also, but the current photo coincides with the text effectively. Vicarious (talk) 21:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree the picture is appropriate...Modernist (talk) 01:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

One thinks that the photo looks like a driver's permit, and despite Hirst's prominence in the venture, a picture that references the artwork would be preferable to that of an individual. Keep until a better image is available. JNW (talk) 01:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Surely the ideal is a greatly expanded article to do justice to the subject with several relevant images, including Hirst.  Ty  11:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see I also misread Johnbod's but now it is clear. It seems the consensus is for the photo but I have requested additional opinions just to be sure. thanks everyone.--Kbob (talk) 02:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)