Talk:French Sudan

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Does anyone know why on earth it was called Soudan, when the British Sudan was thousands of kilometres away near the other side of the continent? It seems odd for two places so far removed to have the same name. --Saforrest 13:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, what he or she said! I was just about to add that exact question; instead, let me second it. I too am puzzled by this odd sharing of names--Rkstafford 14:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I concur! Mindman1 00:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sudan and Soudan are generic European terms for the Savana climate belt that runs across Africa, just south of the Sahel (the semi arid zone south of the Sahara). The colonial territories were British Sudan and French Soudan. Someone should add this to Sudan. :T L Miles 13:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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What is the person on the flag doing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.114.84 (talk) 22:55, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move. There isn't a strong consensus to do so, but, as noted by AbstractIllusions (the main opponent, in fact), even a no consensus should default to the original title of French Sudan. --  tariq abjotu  06:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

French Soudan → French Sudan – Both French Sudan and French Soudan are used as the predecessor to Mali but I think French Sudan is slightly more prevalent for example BBC Tim! (talk) 06:26, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Oppose for now. See comments below.AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support contemporary publications generally use "French Sudan".John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I like AbstractIllusions' take on the whole thing--classy, classy, all the way through. But I disagree; I think the name "Sudan" should always be written like that in an English-language encyclopedia, just as we say "French Africa", not something awkward like "French Afrique". Red Slash 05:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Red Slash can you present figures please on how many times French Sudan is used to refer to Mali and how many times it is used generally of all of French West Africa, because that is Abstract Illusions point. I ask because your contributions at a number of RMs are so badly researched as to be bordering on disruptive. I'd like to AGF but am not convinced you have grasped at all what Abstract Illusions is saying, nor does your "French Afrique" comment suggest you searched "French Soudan" vs "French Sudan" in Google Books before posting. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your honest words, I appreciate seeing your perspective. We have a word for "French Sudan" as he defines it (meaning all of french West Afrique--whoops, Africa. That term, unsurprisingly, is French West Africa). Whether or not the title is French Sudan or French Soudan, one will redirect to the other, so the "distinction" will not actually distinguish anything. In modern writing (NYT, etc.) we do not distinguish. "Soudan" simply doesn't exist outside of a very narrow strip of academia (in the English language).
 * I used my instincts because I am actually pretty good at using and understanding English, and have a reasonably good nose for what the common names for things are in my native language. Even though I've made mistakes before, I had a feeling this time that reliable sources in this language would not have used a spelling that I have never ever encountered in English before. Guess what? I'm right again! Not even close! There is no real evidence presented that this distinction that maybe a professor or two has tried to make ever actually took off in reality. I respect AbstractIllusions for trying their best to support the distinction (he/she was probably instructed by one of the few who did) but, umm, there's no evidence here or elsewhere that I see that this is the case in general, natural, common English, which prefers FWA for the larger area and French Sudan for Mali's predecessor. Red Slash 22:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Red Slash - you "used your instincts" and "I had this feeling"? Can we please ask that you do not "use your instincts" and your "feeling" in future. The ngram doesn't show "Guess what? I'm right again! Not even close!" instead it shows "French Soudan" increasing and "French Sudan" declining post 1990 to a point where the former is near to overtaking. When something is this close it then becomes an area of expertise, which is why you and I should leave this to experienced Africa editors. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * What on earth are you talking about? There seems to be a divide between "academic" and general (common) usage, and you and I both know which one we prefer at Wikipedia. It's no surprise that during Mali's push for independence, the common, normal usage (French Sudan) would have surged. But once the surge was over, again, the standard, normal usage receded while academic usage apparently stayed the same. Red Slash 03:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this has veered off the issue a little bit. The question is not academic versus general usage (both vacillate between spellings seemingly at random, see CNN using Soudan in August and Sudan in January of the same year!).  The question is about clarity: "French Sudan" is used in both common and academic usage to mean multiple things (hence a reason the NGRAM should be treated skeptically, some of those hits aren't talking about the colony, as I show below).  "French Soudan" is used only to mean the 50 year colony that became Mali, but is a far less used spelling than Sudan for the colony.  I think/thought it wise to get a name that is the most precise and unlikely to lead to incorrect information being added to the page.  Others believe we should go with the most common usage (in both academic and popular sources) or conversely could believe that the potential clarity problem is overstated.  I have no problem with any of these arguments, and they all seem legit.  Either spelling is a good option, but that's the issue (rather than some academic vs. popular split). If I could rephrase the question: although French Sudan is the more popular spelling, are there significant enough gains for clarity to justify using French Soudan?  AbstractIllusions (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Question Abstract Illusions - can you present any source which distinguishes "French Sudan" (larger area) and "French Soudan" (more exact area)? I just did a GB for sources which use both in same text, but not seeing any distinction. But then I don't know the topic, evidently you and John Pack Lambert do.
 * To Answer the very fair question, the clearest answer is No. Roberts is the closest we come to making a distinction between "Sudan" and "Soudan" and choosing "Soudan" for clarity reasons. Conversely, Peterson shows a similar attention to French and English spellings and goes with "Sudan" over "Soudan". I will say that the popular press has almost uniformly settled on "French Sudan" for current usage (they vacillated for contemporary usage) and regional academic descriptions of the colonial period typically use "French Sudan" for the colony.  I also don't want to overstate the confusing usages, they are few and far-between.  But once again, there are confusing usages: like here, here, here, etc.  Hope that helps. AbstractIllusions (talk) 14:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that was a clear and straight answer. I think then that leaves this User neutral, there seems to be little in it in terms of usage and some, but not very clear, advantage in disambiguation. Thanks for the answer. Pass. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Disclaimer first: The page was at "French Sudan" and I moved it a couple months back. The problem is that "French Sudan" is often used as a shorthand for all of French West Africa (see here), while "French Soudan" is only used in English text for the former colony (Roberts books show this).  The question then is this: Do we go with the more common term which may be confusing or do we go with the less common term that is clear.  VIAF appears to prefer "French Sudan" in English(see here).  I'm ambivalent--although I have a preference right now, if it goes back after deliberation, I'll be just as happy. AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is Robert's justification (see Note on Orthography): "The retention of the French ou is especially important in the distinction between Western Sudan and the French Soudan. I use the Western Sudan to refer to the precolonial space that eventually became Soudan under French colonial rule. These distinctions help underscore the historical specificity from the colonial period."  The distinction between the colony and the region seems a good reason for ou. AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The Columbia-Lippincott Gazeteer, published in 1952 and the leading American gazeteer of the time, calls the place "French Sudan". This seems a popular enough source to indicate it was the general view.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point for sure. There's plenty of sources that use "French Soudan" also.  A quick proquest search showed that "French Soudan" was used by the Washington Post (August 24, 1960), The Times of India (January 15, 1960), Boston Globe (9 September 1954), New York Herald (January 5, 1945), Pittsburgh Courier (March 9, 1940), New York Times (July 23, 1936), etc (Note, many of these publications went back and forth on usage- i.e. the New York Times has a dozen articles with "French Sudan" and a dozen with "French Soudan").  But the question isn't which one was more popular, "French Sudan" was and is the more popular name, the question is which is the most clearly specified name to avoid confusion and hopefully lead to improvement in this article.  Considering that "French Sudan" is used in popular sources to refer to 1. the region of West Africa that the French took over, 2. The early establishment of the colonial structure and not specifically the colony that became Mali, and 3. the Colony, it seems there are good reasons to create a clear title for the page.  "French Soudan" in English is only used to refer to the colony making it a clearer name.  Even if less popular, the clarity of ou seems to be something that should be part of our decision. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Closing Admin please take note Although I acted in good faith trying to improve the article with the move and did not think there was an objection, this discussion shows that there is a good faith objection. If the discussion closes as no consensus, the page should be moved back to "French Sudan" without the ou.  That page should be the default page unless this discussion results in consensus to keep the 'ou'.  Thank you. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tuareg Policy
I've added significantly to the page the past couple of days and it now at least includes the major parts of the colony for further development. However, I don't have time to delve into the complex and difficult Tuareg policy of the colony during the 60 years of existence. For any future editors, this is a key area for possible expansion. Cheers. AbstractIllusions (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)