Talk:French cruiser Guichen (1897)

GA
Seeing it is up for GA, I decided to check if the article has taken any steps backward since I abandoned it to the capable hands of the ship people in February 2014. Two things I notice. (1) We need an article on the Black Sea mutinies. I think the red link should be restored. (2) Her role in the rescue of the Armenians is told in less detail. She didn't merely participate in it, she started it. Srnec (talk) 00:23, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The question is, what is the appropriate title of an article on the French mutinies in 1919?
 * Is it? The early version of the article stated
 * "In September, under Captain Joseph Brisson, she helped evacuate Armenian resistors from Musa Dagh after one of her crew spotted an Armenian flag flying over the fortress. She conveyed her refugees to Port Said. It was, according to Lord Bryce, "the only story ... with a happy ending" in his report on the ttreatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire."
 * The current version states
 * "On 12 and 13 September, Guichen participated in the evacuation of some 4,000 Armenians from the city of Antioch, along with Amiral Charner, Desaix, D'Estrées Foudre, and the British seaplane carrier HMS Anne. The Armenian civilians had been pursued by Ottoman forces during the Armenian Genocide."
 * This strikes me as a more encyclopedic description. The name of the captain isn't particularly relevant (unless he was a notable individual - I don't know that he was or wasn't), nor are Lord Bryce's comments, IMO we now have specific dates, the number of evacuees, and the other vessels involved. We've also placed it in the context of the Armenian Genocide, which is important. Parsecboy (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * But that paragraph could go in the article on any one of those ships. If Guichen were in fact just one of several who showed up, I would agree. But she wasn't. She was the ship that first made contact with the Armenians. The key missing part is "after one of her crew spotted an Armenian flag flying over the fortress". I'd have to look into it more closely to get the exact dates and sequence of events, but all sources agree that Guichen made first contact. I also think Antioch is wrong. The Turks were between the Armenians and Antioch. It was Musa Dagh that was evacuated. And Jean-Joseph Brisson is notable. Commanded the French at Riga in 1919. Srnec (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The two locations might not be mutually exclusive; the Ottomans had pursued the Armenians to Musa Dagh, but obviously they were not directly evacuated from the mountain. The French might well have sent boats up the Orontes to Antakya, where the Armenians were actually embarked. I've added a few details from Peterson's book that you originally cited.
 * We'd need a source for Brisson to add him to the article. He's not mentioned in Peterson. Parsecboy (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Refs
The footnotes are not consistent. Some contain a date and others do not. Srnec (talk) 23:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The ones with dates only have them to disambiguate them (i.e., there are two books by Jordan & Caresse cited and we have to be able to tell which one is being referenced by a given footnote). Thanks for adding the bit on Brisson, by the way. Parsecboy (talk) 23:12, 10 August 2020 (UTC)