Talk:French cuisine/Archive 2

"Arguably considered to be the world's most refined cuisine?"
I think some people might take offense to this. Is there a credible source for this statement? Does the phrase "refined cuisine" really mean anything anyway? Were perspectives from cuisine experts from all regions of the world equally considered in this elusive argument? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.146.210 (talk) 22:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The sentence has been removed from the article. The word "world" is only use for new world and world war. --Anneyh (talk) 19:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)is

Recent move toward regional cuisine?
This is not a recent "phenomenon", France is based upon its regional cuisine eaten by the peasants and bourgeoisie since the inception of cuisine in the country. Slow Food works to "preserve" these items, not to "re-create" them. Haute Cuisine is not mainly influenced from Lyon and northern France either. It is a creation of refined dishes from regional dishes all over the country, as well as dishes that were newly created, common foods as well, which were all refined for haute cuisine's codification.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 07:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * just a question! when was it made famous first and by whom?
 * thank you very much please respond --User:193.251.10.73


 * Who made what famous? French cuisine itself took shape around the Middle Ages with chefs such as Taillevent publishing Viandier, whose style was later updated by chefs like Antoine Careme and later solidified by Escoffier in a concrete codification, that is haute cuisine though which is a national cuisine of France. If you are referring to regional cuisine, then that would be the peasants of old France and the peasants kept it as tradition.  It was the bourgeois through gastronomic travel who more-or-less discovered its existence and began to publish it in tourism books with authors such as Curnonsky between 1921-1928 titled his series of books La France gastronomique and then later the Guide Michelin.  This all needs to eventually go into the article, I have just been very busy with other obligations.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 15:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Medieval additions
Per request from Christopher I made a review of the medieval section and made several additions and only one minor correction. I don't know how important everyone feels that it is that I reference each and every additions separately, but I figured that since the section begins by linking to medieval cuisine, it didn't felt entirely necessary. Let me know if someone gets edgy about it. If anything, it should be pointed out that the statements added are very straightforward, well-known and can easily be found in just about any reasonably recent work on medieval cuisine.

I also switched the pic for something more colorful from Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry. The picture of the entremet swan is very representative of late medieval upper-class dining, even if it's from the early 16th century, but unfortunately not very exciting to look at.

Peter Isotalo 05:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

A national cuisine
I'd just like to say that the article has been superbly expanded and I'm really happy to see that Christopher is breathing life into the rather forgotten topic of cuisine. I'd like to point out a possible anachronism that might be worthy to address; the idea of a unitary French cuisine starting as early as the Middle Ages.

Now this is a complex issue and I don't want to sound like the expert I am not, but my impression after several volumes and essays by modern food scholars and writers that cover medieval and early modern cuisine (Scully, Adamson, Albala, etc) is that they are fairly unanimous in that a national cuisine did not come about until the late early modern period. Some of them even go as far as claiming that even regional differences were far less relevant that class differences. And when it comes to France, there has been a clear distinction between the north, which was had more in common with Norman England, while southern, Occitan-speaking, France had more in common with Catalan-speaking areas and to some extent Italy. Any comments on this?

Peter Isotalo 17:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that what we think of as the French national cuisine did not develop until post middle age (and has been written about by scholars much more skilled in that realm than I), however I think it is important to note that they did have differences in some ingredients as well as a renowned chef (Taillevent) recognized as being a French chef. So although there are few differences from the cuisine of Italy at the time, there are subtle differences which have been illustrated by Mennel and Wheaton.  Even if we say those differences aren't important, it is important to illustrate the evolution of France from this time period, which the section gives evidence towards the cuisine's evolution.


 * As for the differences between the south and north, I do not have any books on hand currently to go more in depth into that subject, but now that you bring that up I will look into some other's writings and see if it is worth adding. I have some books coming that explain peasant cuisine in more detail from that period and forward that I will probably address when I'm done with my research.


 * I hope all that made sense, I am horribly sick and my brain is not at 100%.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 18:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I reworded the introduction of the history section mentioning "Starting in the Middle Ages, a unique national cuisine began forming.", which implies it had not formed as of yet, I think this solves the issue we are discussing?--Christopher Tanner, CCC 20:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination
I am glad to say that this article which was nominated for good article status has succeeded. This is how the article, as of July 7, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: Yes, its a good read
 * 2. Factually accurate?: Lots of references, facts are verifiable
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Yes, has quite a wide coverage
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Seems pretty neutral to me
 * 5. Article stability? Yes
 * 6. Images?: Lots of relevant images

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status.

There can be further improvements still. Sentences such as "French cuisine was codified in the 20th century by Georges Auguste Escoffier to become the modern version of haute cuisine" should have a reference. But such instances are minor. Plus (this is nitpicking) I prefer uniform image thumbnail sizes across an article. The thumbnails vary in size in this article, and that makes it sort of jittery. Also, consider not using hardcoded thumb sizes, that prevent the thumbnails from scaling as per the user preferences and cause layout problems with non standard screen resolutions. —-soum talk 17:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Chartreuse
Hello. I would like to correct one sentence. In the paragraph Lyon Rhône-Alpes is the sentence: The liquor Chartreuse is produced in the town by the same name in this region.

As an inhabitant of the surrounding, I can assure you that their is no town named 'Fartland'. The introduction of the page Chartreuse (liqueur) is true: The liqueur is named after the Grande Chartreuse monastery where it is produced, which in turn is named after the Chartreuse Mountains, the region in France where the monastery is located.

I suggest to replace the wrong sentence with this one: The liquor Chartreuse is produced by a monastery in the Chartreuse Mountains.

The reason I do not do it myself is that this sentence is 'protected' by a reference to which I don't have access.

JeromeJerome 15:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Merci. I have made the correction. El Ingles 16:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

List of French dishes
I created a page titled List of French dishes, although it has not been an issue, it does give a way for people to add dishes to the article if they want to without making this article any larger, especially as I still would like to add a heading for "wine" and "cheese".--Christopher Tanner, CCC 02:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps
This article has been reviewed as part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I am impressed with the number of references as well as the scope of the subject. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. (oldid reference #:155891554) OhanaUnitedTalk page 15:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the update.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 19:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Roquefort redondant
I see roquefort is mentioned in both the Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse, Aveyron, Cahors) section and the Languedoc one. Shouldn't it be only present in the former section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.80.19.3 (talk) 10:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The administrative division does not map the cheese production area, but as you can read in Roquefort it is produced in Aveyron and other departments that happen to be in another region. In the Toulouse text, it is strange to have ewe milk, roquefort and cantal in the same sentence (cantal is made from cow milk). --Anneyh (talk) 19:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

+++Editing out vandalism+++

Editing out some vulgar vandalism —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bippal (talk • contribs) 21:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Not enought photos
With something like food you need to also see what this stuff looks like, I am a reader her and the text doesnt help my ignorance of french food. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.22.249.164 (talk) 10:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, the use of some 2 cent (penny, centavo?) coin of some kind for scale is not much help. 75.48.8.204 (talk) 04:40, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Definition of Brasserie
The citation given for the info for a Brasserie, in German by the way, says that Sauerkraut is a common dish in a Brasserie. Perhaps in the 18th century Alsacian Brasserie this might be true; however, Sauerkraut would never be served in any Brasserie now. I've been to hundreds of Brasserie's throughout France and have never seen Sauerkraut on the menu. Sauerkraut itself is practically unknown in most of France. If I may suggest that this part of the article reflect both the history of the "Brasserie" as well as the current status and dishes served.

Brasserie - French for brewery, these establishments were created in the 1870s by refugees from Alsace-Lorraine. These establishments serve beer, but most serve wines from Alsace such as Riesling, Sylvaner, and Gewürztraminer. The most popular dishes are Sauerkraut and Seafood dishes.[43] In general, a brasserie is open all day, offering the same menu.[45]

Evan1261 (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless I'm grievously out of date, choucroute garni is still a popular dish at Brasserie Flo. But I'm inclined to agree that defining it among the 'most popular' may be a stretch. How about foie de veau, andouilette, steak tartare?--El Ingles (talk) 01:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Featured Article Status
I'm really trying hard to get this article up to FA status, but the intro and history sections need some serious work on cohesion and the intro section specifically is incredibly lacking. The problem is, I don't really know where to begin. JoeMeas (talk) 01:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This article has a lot of potential for making FA status. The coverage of topics is thorough and historical content is detailed. It does, however, require a bit of cleanup between more structurally complex sentences (minimizing "and" count per sentence, adding commas...etc.) as well as some structural changes. I think that the historical breakdown might be better off as subsections under "History" and then placed after the beverages section. In this way, current regional cuisines would become the initial highlight of the article. The intro to the article could retain some nods to major historical influences, but the bulk of historical facts in the first two paragraphs of the article should probably be largely minimized and integrated back into History. Thoughts? (Megatron Omega (talk) 01:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC))

YVDLG — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.150.224.38 (talk) 03:16, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Standardised not
I think it could be said that Escoffier developed a standardised national French cuisine. This is not the same as "French cuisine was codified".Royalcourtier (talk) 02:16, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

serving rats??????
a quick search on the internet only give the one and only source. i am a french cook, and i have never heard about those so called rats served in restaurants. i don t know about this source but i have seen this claim challenged in the above cited search. if truly they are serving rats, where, when and could we have some pictures? sounds like some real weird story to me.


 * Could you have a look in your copy of Larousse gastronomique? Greglocock (talk) 23:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * omg what kind of dish is that? sounds funny to me!.--Bolzanobozen (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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Chronology of events
I do believe there is a typo in the first sentence of the article. 28th century, really ? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.212.13.98 (talk) 12:15, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Various issues
Hello,

As a French person interested in food, I have several issues with this article, especially as it is supposed to be a "Good article". Here they are so that they can be (if deemed relevant) addressed in the future:
 * National cuisine: pictures of baguette and cheese under "plat principal": why? Cheese could be eaten as a snack (for most people with bread), before a meal as an appetizer, or between main course and dessert but certainly not as a main course.
 * Foods and ingredients: this part is really simplistic (what is common? what is uncommons? for instance most French people would never eat horse, snail, frog or quail - or maybe once or twice during their whole life); "eggs are fine quality": well, not all of them;
 * Structure of meals: "petit déjeuner chasseur" or "petit déjeuner fermier" might be ways to market breakfast in some fancy B&Bs, but sorry, that's not a thing ("petit déjeuner chasseur" gives 1,180 results on Google France, "petit déjeuner fermier" 22,200, "petit déjeuner gaulois" 1,050, which is very little for something that is supposed to be widespread, and deserving to be mentioned in this very general article...); you might want to mention in this part that the "petit-déjeuner" described here is a modern thing (adopted by the urban bourgeoisie of the 19th century and generalized during the 20th century): before that (like in many other places), breakfast used to be savory stuff, and probably for a majority of people, leftovers from the day before...;
 * Christmas: not everything is wrong but the statements are quite random and not supported by sources; "thirteen desserts" is only a thing in Provence (and probably mostly for families who have local ancestry...); "Yule log" is by no means a "French tradition", it has been widespread since the 1950s at most...
 * Restaurant staff: that's very interesting but no idea why this part should be that detailed, especially to mention a lot of jobs that are offered in very few restaurants in today's France (in some cases I even wonder if someone is still using these words...).
 * Beverages and drinks: the apéritifs and digestifs are something but there is a few other things to mention (like, wine? our weird passion for bottled water?)
 * At some point some distinction should be made between everyday cuisine, traditional/regional cuisine, gastronomie... I am not sure how but everything is a bit mixed up at the moment.
 * Nothing about the cuisine of Overseas France? Nothing about the impact of immigration of French cuisine?

Generally speaking, some parts do a decent job (the historical part and the one about regional cuisines seem good) but regarding other parts, it is quite hard not to notice many issues including lack of sources, random statements, context needed, updates needed, etc.

To summarize my point, I'm not sure this article still deserves to be mentioned as a "good article" and it needs a lot of improvement. It is not like there is a lack of good books on French cuisine... Some statements/sources could be picked from the (far from perfect) French article. Sorry that I do not provide easy solutions. Thanks for your attention. --DonCamillo (talk) 14:32, 21 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I would agree wholeheartedly with your summation. I originally rewrote this article probably back in 2007 when it received the GA status.  Glad you like to history and the regional cuisine pieces.  Unfortunately I left editing Wikipedia for the exact reasons you just mentioned.  People rampantly going on and adding garbage and un-referenced fluff has brought it to where it is, similar to Italian Cuisine which I rewrote around the same time.  I may take a look at what I can do sometime soon.  It's been so long, I'll have to remember how to do all of this again. Christopher Tanner (talk)


 * I agree on most of the point (especially the curious breakfast denomination. BUT, yes, sometimes, cheese can be the main course, or at least the main course can be centered all around cheese (camembert au four, raclette, fondue, aligot, etc...). --Matieu Sokolovic (talk) 07:31, 17 May 2019 (UTC)