Talk:French fries/Archive 1

Initial comments

 * US french fries are British chips.
 * US potato chips are British crisps.

Reminds me of:


 * US cookies are British biscuits.
 * US biscuits are British crackers.
 * US crackers are British white people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) 09:02, 27 March 2002 (UTC)


 * In America a person will sit on their ass. In Britain we may sit on an ass, but not neccesarily one's own ass. We would however sit on our own bums. In America sitting on a bum would be considered impolite, unwise and unhealthy, so a polite person would probably talk about sitting on their fanny. In Britain sitting on your fanny would be considered either uncomfortable or impossible, and would certainly not be polite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mintguy (talk • contribs) 02:26, 24 November 2002 (UTC)

Freedom fries in 2003
like totally cut from the article:

On March 11, 2003 the cafeteria menus in the three United States House of Representatives office buildings changed the name of "french fries" to "freedom fries" in a culinary rebuke of France stemming from anger over the country's opposition to the the U.S. position on Iraq. French toast was also changed to freedom toast (During World War I, in a similar move, attempts were made to replace the word sauerkraut with the term liberty cabbage and frankfurter with hot dog in menus and in popular speech: only the latter was successful.  During World War II, French toast replaced German toast as the popular term for that dish.)

Many Europeans dismissed the changes of March 2003 as 'immature gimmackry', in the words of an Irish newspaper. Several American congressmen have agitated for more serious and less symbolic actions to be taken against the French. Others have criticised the behaviour as attempted intimidation of a nation who is entitled to hold a different point of view on an international issue to the United States. Suggestions that some European states should boycott American products and companies such as MacDonalds and that European television stations boycott American programmes have been criticised as stooping to the level of


 * I'm Belgian, and I can tell you that the France governement did confirm on to the press, during the Iraqi invasion:"Actually, french fries are NOT a French product, it comes from Belgium." So it was ignorance that made people change the names of a product.

It's like so out of place to even talk about all that anti-French stuff, you know what I mean? Cuz we need a more awesome segue to like, introduce it, okay? I mean like maybe an anti-French sentiment article or American attitudes towards France or like whatever, you know? --Uncle Ed 21:22 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)


 * Ed, let me state that I don't think french people would feel very happy with the title you gave to that page. I do not. It may be a good title in terms of communication ("percutant" would we say)...but it is slightly unfairly lacking some information. In short : from what I read in the news (your news, mostly cnn, fox is really too depressing), there is indeed a very strong anti-french sentiment. But this sentiment is expressed by *americans* only (are mostly by *far*). The title of this page anti-French sentiment gives the feeling it is something much more general. Anthere


 * btw, did you guys decided to rename french kiss to freedom kiss too ? That would be tasty !
 * french kiss didn't bother annyone as it didn't occur in the economy; it was not a 'French' product they could import, or better, stop importing :-/

well french fries have a different name in capitalist land, it should be mentioned. Just not ALL of it should be here. Susan Mason


 * On March 11, 2003 the cafeteria menus in the three United States House of Representatives office buildings changed the name of "french fries" to "freedom fries" in a culinary rebuke of France stemming from anger over the country's opposition to the the U.S. position on Iraq.

This section seems like it might be vaguely encyclopedic. I suggest waiting a month and seeing if it still seems important then. Martin

why wait a month? Anything the House does is encyclopedic. Susan Mason

Yeah, like I totally agree that the "menus were changed" part should stay in the article. When I said I "totally" cut it I wasn't all like "completely" cut it it, it just totally wasn't completly pedia-worthy so I like was all get this out in a hurry dude! The "rebuke" part is bitchin'! --Uncle Ed

So like right on, the menu part stays and the rest belongs in its own arty! Susan Mason

Party hearty, here's your arty: --Surfer Dude 21:56 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)


 * You two aren't helping attempts to claim this is a serious encyclopedia... that's like, so totally not cool... ;-) Martin

Isn't renaming "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" saying that "French" is synonymous with "Freedom"? This action seems more like a compliment to the French than an insult.


 * doesnot everyone knows that french fries are from Belgium ? If so, the compliment is for Belgium people.


 * Not Belgium, but Belgian, and not 'French fries', but 'french fries'. No capitals :)

But since it is clearly indicated that the first change of that type was done in reference to german sausage changed to freedom sausage (or anything similar) just after WWI, I doubt you could say it is a compliment :-)

Anthere comments on the name of anti-French sentiment, suggesting something like American anti-French sentiment. Of course, then we have to have an edit war over whether that's best, or whether we should have American anti-French bigotry or American anti-French racism. Next someone has to create French anti-Americanism in the name of "balance", and we'll all have a competition to see which page we can make largest.

Or does that only apply for pages concerning the Israel-Palestine conflict? ;-) Martin

sigh, yes. Fortunately, I know nothing about the Israel-Palestinian conflict, so I won't bother anyone there :-) Yes, I suppose I would be alone editing the French anti-Americanism. So...in short, what you suggest - for the sake of peace - is that we just pretend that Anti-Americanism does not exist ? That makes sense...Okay, let's concentrate very hard...


 * A better solution might be to have an article on American-French relations, which can discuss how French-American relationships have waxed and (recently) waned over recent history. Just an idea.Martin


 * very good proposition. Maybe part of this article could be the content of anti-French sentiment ?


 * Is this even relevant to french fries ????

-

Given the galloping rate of obesity on the US, the snart thing to do would have been to simply remove them from the menu and eat something healthier. Still. That would be too simple. -- Tarquin 23:16 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)


 * I'm sure the good Congressmen from Idaho wouldn't have approved... --Brion
 * Not relevant. This is not a discussion board for such matters.

btw

the fried potatoes are called French fries because they were once fried in the French manner (that is to say frying them two times with a small pause in the middle)


 * That's one of the explanations, but since officialy it doesn NOT refer to a country, what does it still have to do with France ? Nothing besides the resemblance of the name. :)

We still do that, cooking in two times...much much better...it stays softer in the middle, and real crisp on the outside, while if you cook them in only one batch, they are spongy with oil. You don't do that ?


 * Only in north of France they (still ) do that a lot, here in Belgium, almost everybody does it like that.

I always thought they were called "french fries" after an eighteenth century verb "to french", which means something like "to cut in pieces", but I'm not sure.

Double fried oxen white horses
"According to culinary celebrity Alton Brown, Belgian pommes frites are usually fried in horse fat.". I find this difficult to believe. Horses are generally lean creatures. Mintguy 15:30 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)


 * plus, it is much better in goose fat or duck fat...


 * I didn't know but it seems it's right the Belgian used animal fat. The most precise receipt 30% pork fat (saindoux), 60% beef fat a,d 10% neck horse fat.


 * Reference in French : http://www.frites.be/article.cfm?ContentID=636


 * Ericd 16:39 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)


 * You realise that frites.be is a commercial, non-academic site, right? And that the site owner's opinions never reference any third-party work, right? RIGHT? BadDoggie (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is the actual quote from the sidebar on page 110 of Mr. Brown's fine book, I'm Just Here for the Food. (The parentheses and linkage are mine.)


 * The Belgians are even more into pommes frites than we (Americans) are and they swear by horse fat. I've been to Belgium, I've had the frites, and my money's on Mr. Ed.  Horse fat is, however, oddly absent from the American supermarket shelf.


 * I'm from Belgium, and yes, it might be that your fries have been baked in 100% horse fat; that is, if you went to a classy restaurant that claims to make Belgian fries.

But i can honnestly tell you, step out of the touristic area, and you'll find us baking it, with oil for sure, but with more natural oil. (healthier, like arachide (=nuts) or sunflower oil)


 * If someone from Belgium could confirm this, I would be quite pleased. --Two halves 05:44 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)
 * Just did so :)


 * I also doubt that the traditional way is in horse fat, horses were very expensive, so I doubt the poor people who baked fries had them. And even if they had horses, they would only use horse fat if the horse died, they wouldn't kill a horse for it.


 * Horses were used for transportation, work and war; there were magnitudes more then than now and the carcasses readily available. Horsemeat was for the poor and for the soldiers (who would collect it from the battlefields). BadDoggie (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm from Belgium.

Fry twice is a `must'. Many different types of oil/fat are used. Temperatures to be used depend on which type. Classical is so-called ``ossewit" (dutch; lit. eng. transl.= oxen white), which consists (only?) of beef-fat. It is used because of it's good temperature resistance and good taste of the resulting fries. It's less easy to clean the frying device though. This is why many people use nut-oil (arachide), which also gives good results.

I'm not familiar with Wikipedea-editing, so more experienced users can put this info in the article, if they think it relevant.
 * Hi, as fellow Belgian, I can tottaly confirm that. :)

--EQ

Yes, I'm a belgian too, and the rumour about hores fat is false. Traditionally we use fat from oxen, but nowadays, a nut oil or sunflower oil is preferred for health reasons, and also because oxen fat is actually quite expensive. Belgan fries are made from peeled potatoes, cut into square strips of about 1 centimeter by one centimeter. It is indeed so that Belgian fries are fried twice, once at about 140 to 160 degrees Celsius, and once at 180 to 190 degrees Celsius. I've modified the article a little to represent this.

Maybe we should also add that we Belgians claim to have invented the fries, somewhere just after the independence of Belgium, in Antwerp.
 * We claimed it. And the name of 'french' fries came later on, given probebly by British or american soldiers during the war. Altough potatoes were used much much earlier, we even used it in the 1500 hundreds, we didn't made fries of them yet!


 * More than 15% animal fat gives fries an abbatoir taste. BadDoggie (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Last time I knew, "french fries" were originally "frenched fries", "french" being a verb meaning "cut into thin strips".

Wouldn't you know, I just added that to the article without even seeing your comment. I must be psychic. GusGus 04:46, 2004 Mar 7 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an argument about potato based products with different names either side of the atlantic again but... if you don't fry chips twice they don't work. Fries supplied to fast food restaurants have already been friend once. Mintguy (T) 01:35, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * No, "French" in this case means "deep fried", c.f. http://officialfrenchfries.com/docs/history.html and http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/shop/pages/ppc68.htm#French%20fries -- the information isn't that hard to find. BadDoggie (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Last I've read, the so-called 'french' fries were invented in Brussels (not Antwerp), assumedly near the present South Station. And the articles' Jefferson is elsewhere quoted as "potatoes, fried in the French manner" which may well be sliced potatoes that might as well come from Spain or France though these are common in Belgium as well - pan fried that is; when deep fried, Americans have a thicker version of what they call chips (UK: crisps). Belgian 'french' fries are cut further in a plane at a right angle with the first series of slicings, and deep fried.

In Dutch (and thus Flemish), friet is singular or the term for a whole portion (as if a substance), and frieten is plural; the word that makes it sound smaller (as every substantive in Dutch can be made) is singular frietje (a singel piece only) or plural frietjes. I assume British could talk about a chip and chips the way 'frietje' and 'frietjes' are used, but how would Americans call a single piece of a french fried potato?

Anyway, the oil and fat arguments mentioned by EQ are quite authentical. Oxen white's rising price caused switching to vegetable oils as GusGus pointed out. Another reason was the cholesterol benefit.

Since I couldn't find EQ's temperatures etc presented in the article either, I revised and expanded the whole paragraph on Belgian cooking style, as far as my knowledge about the article's topic allows – though advantages of each variety of oil (also corn oil can be used at 175 to 180 °C) are not comprehensively shown. I still did not name a single variety of potato – including the historically preferred varieties would take a separate article, and the presently most common bintje is not everyone's favorite. I haven't the foggiest on non-Belgians' potatoes. But my very shortly pointing out the existence of different potatoes seems a bit underestimating the importance of french fries' main ingredient. ;-) — SomeHuman 2006-08-14 22:08 (UTC)


 * If you wanted one french cut piece of potato that was fried you would ask for "a french fry," you could also say "one french fry" if you wanted to be really precise. We don't consider it a vast commodity as is implied by the 'friet,' you couldn't ask for one flour, but you could ask for one french fry.  ABart26 15:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Invented" in Belgium? That'd be a neat trick since there was no such thing as "Belgium" until October 4, 1830, but references to French fries appear in the late 18th century. BadDoggie (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the name, a new theory
The following was added in the Belgium article, but it should definitely come here. It seems possible (well I dunno really, yet another theory?):


 * "The origin, and explanation for the name 'French Fries', both are to be found in Belgium, oppose to what most people beleive, and that it comes from France. It was named after language and name of the man, namely Frits, who made them during the WO and served it to English speaking soldiers who were fighting in the southern part of Belgium. Hence why they are called 'French fries', as people speak French in that part of Belgium. And 'Frits', a Belgian that lived there, changed into 'fries'."

Can anybody confirm this? -- Edcolins 20:12, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * The French verb "frire" means "to fry", and "pommes frites" (pronounced [pomfrit]) means "fried potatoes". Deriving "French fries" from "French Frits" is just some sort of silly joke. --Macrakis 19:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi there, I'll will confirm this for you. By the simple reason, that I added those extra lines to 'Belgium'.
 * I added those lines back then, and now (4/8/04) I re-read that part, noticing my lines have been removed again, and have some things to say about what I find posted here:
 * 1) Opposite to what a Belgian did say above, it was not invented in Antwerp, altough, the person might have lived his whole life in Antwerp !
 * (In fact, I beleive the person, or his origin, which ofcourse are irrelevant to the 'friet' itself, lie in the South of Holland, most likely Amsterdam. Late 18th century.)
 * 2) There are sources that tell of a 'friet'-shape potato BEFORE we called them french fries, and they also point at a large area of Belgium, but not specific enough. And also, we must not forget, that the potato wasn't discovered that 'long time' ago, as to be food for us in the late years of 1500 (1570-1590's).
 * 3) In the explanation of Belgium stands that french fries should not be written with a capital, as it is not a country we are referring to, than at least I wanted to explain why.
 * (Hence my original addition I typed about french fries under 'Belgium'.)


 * And this all also declines the argument of why it is not called 'German fries', because of German being an enemy in the war. There is no fundamental reason why there even would be speaking of calling it 'German' fries. (As one of the ways of baking them, or the verb, does refer more likely to France in the first place, and secondly, I doubt that Germans were serving the British and Americans troops 'German fries' here during the war ;-)
 * At least, none that I found directly in the explanations found at wikipedia.
 * -- Phil_Belgium 02:25, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * This sound like a load of old pony to me. Mintguy (T) 00:35, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Picture
The current picture on this page is one of the most unappetising sights I've ever seen. Can we have something else please?
 * You're right, it's a terrible picture. The next time that I make my own (two batch cooking) I'll take some pix and post one of them here. Hayford Peirce 22:16, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

History
The history section is a little short, and only talks about the history of french fries in the US. Matijs van Zuijlen

FRIED POTATOES, AN SPANISH INVENTION

In 1781 Joseph Gérard wrote about fried potatoes, but in early XVII century Spaniards conquerors wrote about potatoes been eaten by local aborigins, normally boiled. As the first Spanish port dealing with the Americas was Seville, when the Spaniards took with them new food as potatoes to the old World, they didn´t wait too much to fried it as it was the usual way to cook in South Spain. (South Spain is one of the most important olive oil producers in the world). By the time Belgium was part of the Spanish Empire and very good commercials, so they dealed with Spain and discovered the fried potatos that where not too much appreciated in Spain. The difference was that potato plant was easy to grow in northern Europe and became a very important source to avoid famine. This is history and you can find detailed documents in "Seville´s Archivo de Indias" (Seville´s Inidan Archive) where there are preserved the boat´s log of trading cargos from and to Seville and the Americas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.93.169.148 (talk) 14:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

British chips not greasy?
I am British and I can tell you, the claim that British chips are not greasy is inaccurate.

Per fried piece of potato, there may be less fat proportionally than is absorbed by a thinly cut fry, but in my experience British chips feel and taste greasier than fries.

Another point to note is that in the UK you will find the chips are more likely to be cooked in animal fat the farther north you go, although this is a dying practice with the modern emphasis on healthy eating and the large number of British vegetarians affecting the economics of chip shops.

Hungry Jack's takes an apostrophe.

UK wording
This article is somewhat wrong on the UK wording of things. We do not call fries chips, we call fries...Fries. Fries are in turn however a certain kind of long, thin, salty chip. This should be taken into account somehow. -Josquius


 * Not in fact the case. In the US 'fries' includes what the British call 'chips', as well as the long thin salty things you refer to (which seem to have limited existence in Britain outside Macdonalds). DJ Clayworth 15:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Excuse Me? Josquius was clearly stating that in Britain a chip is different to a fry. Who gives a damn whether or not US fries include what we call chips?! In Britain, Fries (nasty thin crispy things sold in McDonalds) are VERY different to Chips. Jcuk


 * In Britain Chips and French Fries are not the same thing; just because the US has an obviously limited vocabulary in this area, there is no reason to make wikipedia so americocentric. Chips is chips and fries is fries. Y control 13:50, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Josquius is 100% correct. In the UK, a chip is significantly different to a fry. As has been said, fries are seldom found outside of McDonalds or Burger King outlets, whereas chips are served in Fish and Chip shops up and down the country, in every public house and restaurant and almost every home. There ought to be a seperate Chips article to complement the French Fries article. 82.70.160.238


 * I agree with the idea that Chips are different to French Fries. In Australia French Fries are exclusively sold at American style fast food outlets. Chips are definitely not French Fries. Why therefore isn't there a Chips article. Perhaps French Fries should be under a subsection of Chips? In Australia there are still the traditional Fish and Chip shops called Chippies. Chips are also served in pubs. Woe betide the Pub that serves French Fries instead of Chips. Ozdaren 14:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree British Chips are not the same as French Fries - in Britain we call the thin things Americans eat French Fries - and the chunky things Britons eat Chips - a totally different article is needed for Chips - I hope someone will write one soon - Rej4sl 4 Sep2006 (was unsigned, undated)


 * NO, no, no, and NO. The only difference between British and Belgian/Canadian/Australian/American/etc chips is the thickness of the cut, the British chip size tending to be approximately the size of what is referred to as "steak-cut fries" in the US (1.5-2cm thick, 3-4cm wide, length under 20cm). They, like processed French fries/chips around the world, are initially par-fried before being flash frozen or cooled and fresh-bagged for distribution. BadDoggie (talk) 01:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not true. Fries tend to be mashed up and reformed like in McDonalds. Chips are simply cut. At least that's the case in the UK. Jetekus (talk) 21:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Takes the biscuit...sorry, cookie
French fires and chips are two different things, so need to different articles! 82.3.121.1 9 Nov2005was unsigned, undated, separate section: moved as subsection in pre-existing section on 8 Dec2006

One article, two informal names
See my comments of 8 Dec2006 in this talk page section 'Chips v French Fries'. — SomeHuman 8 Dec2006 16:11 (UTC)

Acrylamide discussion
In Germany has recently been a hot tempered discussion about acrylamide and how to reduce its formation in french fries. As a result it is now officially recommended to avoid temperatures above 175°C (347°F). For restaurants this limit is mandatory. Also german Wikipedia mentions "standard values" of 140°C for the first and 175°C for the second batch (284 and 347°F, respectively). Does anyone know whether it is possible to compensate the lower temperatures by longer duration for comparable quality? I strongly suppose that the temperature limit is the most important reason why fries in german canteens recently tend to be a bit poor in taste. Are the higher Temperatures (350 and 375°F) actually optimum temperatures for best taste?--SiriusB 17:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, German Wikipedia did mention these low "standard" temperatures until my last edit which was motivated by this english article.--SiriusB 17:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

German name
When I was in Germany, admittedly many years ago, I ordered chips as "Pommes Frites". Is that now not the name, or was I in a strange part of Germany? DJ Clayworth 16:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


 * No, you weren't in a strange part of Germany: That's what Germans call French fries.  Transliterated from French it means "potato fries", or "fried potatoes".  In French, a potato is la pomme de terre, or apple of the earth., and frites is fries.  It's pronounced "pom frit". Quicksilver 20:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Freedom fries
It's my impression, from reading the papers, that the Congressional restaurant has renamed "freedom fries" to "french fries" but I can't track down anything specific about this. The Wiki article on freedom fries says that the guy who forced the original name change now regrets having done it but doesn't specifically say that the name has changed back. Anyone here have any hard info on this? If the name *has* been restored, then this should be reflected in the French fry article. Hayford Peirce 17:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Didn't anyone in the states propose the word "chips" when Americans wanted to call their french fries something else ?

Boardwalk fries
Merged. SilkTork 20:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Native American
Why hasn't anyone thought of the possibility of 'french fries' being originated in the so called 'New World'. The European people throughout history wouldn't even have the possibility of discussing if it were not for the contribution of the Americas. Think for an instant in indians using their pots (in wich they used to melt metals) with some grease to "fry" the porduce of their lands. — 201.244.201.122 25 Mar2006 (was unsigned, undated, created at bottom of page though under comment with unrelated section title; section title given 8 Dec2006)
 * I'll discard even a Belgian origin if you find a source. Wikipedia does no original research. — SomeHuman 8 Dec2006 19:34 (UTC)

Name Change
(When next comment was made, the article name used to be 'French fries' — SomeHuman 23 Sep2006) Should this article be changes to French Fry? Seeing how all (or most) article titles are singular. I'm thinking of nominating this page for a name change. Ted87 00:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * See on this talk page perhaps also section 'Double fried oxen white horses' (subsection of 14 Aug & 28 Oct2006) and certainly section Chips v French Fries, especially the Collins dictionary entry stating 'plural, noun' and only plural informal terms as well. It neither has an entry in singular as 'French fried potato' or 'French fry' (nor separately as 'French fries') though 'chip' has as one of many (normally singular) meanings a description of our topic as well as of a US term for crisp, while it lacks an entry 'chips'. The singular usage of the terms 'French fries' as well as 'French fried potatoes' is however very theoretical, their origin will definitely have been plural. — SomeHuman 8 Dec2006 19:34 (UTC)