Talk:Friday the 13th/Archive 1

article title
Why does this article have this odd title? -- Zoe


 * I would prefer Friday the 13th or Friday the thirteenth. How about you? -- Oliver P. 03:44 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Either, though Friday the 13th, which already redirects to here, is my preference. -- Zoe


 * An odd question: why is Friday the 13th considered bad luck, but not, say, Wednesday the 13th? Koyaanis Qatsi 03:56 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * I know there's an interesting reason (or at least an urban legend explaining it) because I read it in, I think, one of Uncle John's Bathroom Readers. Sadly, I can't even begin to remember what the explanation was. It makes me think of the ancient Druids though, for what that's worth.  Tuf-Kat


 * What the hell is Wednesday the 13th?


 * The day after Tuesday the 12th. -- Zoe


 * It's also the day before Thursday the 14th. Just FYI.  But seriously, I honestly don't know the story behind Friday the 13th, but I'm sure that it's somewhere here on the internet.  I will do some research on it.  You know you can find anything on the internet, lol.  ManicGypsy

I thought it had something to do with a train crash for some reason.. Salty! 02:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

origin of the date, not the number
Most of the stories seem to on explain why 13 is unlucky, not the link to Fridays.


 * I agree. The whole origins section is currently redundant; it explains why the number 13 may be considered unlucky but says nothing about the date Friday the 13th. The current content should be replaced with a pointer to 13 (number) and then talk about actual date origins (such as Knights Template below). --Air 12:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

What is glaringly missing from this article is the actual reason Friday the 13th is considered unlucky. It's a pagan love holiday slandered by the Roman Catholics. Friday is Venus's day. There are 13 Moons in the Lunar calendar; 13 is a lucky number in the matriarchal Venus cult.

Spanish reference and Knights Templar origins
1. The spanish reference to Tuesday the 13th, I'm not sure it does mean as it says ("on Tuesday, neither get married nor start a journey"). "Embarques" is rarely used as starting a trip (from "barco", ship), but as "don't get in debt" (monetary or else).

2. The article about the Knights Templar has a reference to the possible origins of Friday the 13th. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templar


 * Where, and who uses embarques as meaning don't get in debt? In Puerto Rico atleast, embarcarse means to go away on a journey. (SIGN YOUR COMMENTS!!!)  12.214.20.252 03:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC) oops!, I forgot to log in... Cjrs 79 03:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

uh, I'm not sure the tuesday 13th in spanish world needs a quotation. it's popular culture, you could ask any spanish speaking person on the internet. If you really need a quotation or proof of some sort.. the friday 13th movies were called "martes 13" ("tuesday 13th") in spanish. Check out the IMDB, http://imdb.com/title/tt0080761/releaseinfo, it was called martes 13 in some places (spain called them "friday 13th" anyway)

one line is wrong
In fact, the 13th is more likely to be a Friday than any other day of the week.

If Jan. 1 is Sunday then Jan. 13 is a Friday. The next year (52weeks one day) Jan. 1 is a Monday and Jan 13 is a Saturday. Excluding leap year this would be a 7 year cycle and the 13th would fall evenly on every day. Including leap year (excluding exceptions to leap year) would give at most a 28 year cycle.


 * Except that the rules for leap years are a little more complicated. I quote: The Gregorian calendar, the current standard calendar in most of the world, adds a 29th day to February in all years evenly divisible by 4, except for century years (those ending in -00), which receive the extra day only if they are evenly divisible by 400. Thus 1996 was a leap year whereas 1999 was not, and 1600, 2000 and 2400 are leap years but 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2100 are not. This results in a 400 year cycle, which is easily veriefied using an eternal calender of some sort (Outlook provides one, for instance) -- the years 2000 and 2400 are exactly the same.
 * This means we have 400 * 12 = 4800 months, and (400 * 365 + 24 * 4 + 1) / 7 = 20871 weeks; it's easy to see those two don't match--212.115.192.29 09:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC).

Friggatriskaidekaphobia
I added friggatriskaidekaphobia,with a redirect from there, as it's the term I'm familiar with (Brendan McWilliams of The Irish Times uses it regularly). See.

Modern Phenomenon?
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/friday_the_13th_4.htm


 * Going back a hundred years, Friday the 13th doesn't even merit a mention in E. Cobham Brewer's voluminous 1898 edition of the "Dictionary of Phrase and Fable," though one does find entries for "Friday, an Unlucky Day" and "Thirteen Unlucky." When the date of ill fate finally does make an appearance in later editions of the text, it is without extravagant claims as to the superstition's historicity or longevity. The very brevity of the entry is instructive — "A particularly unlucky Friday. See Thirteen" — implying that the extra dollop of misfortune attributed to Friday the 13th can be accounted for in terms of an accrual, so to speak, of bad omens: Unlucky Friday + Unlucky 13 = Unluckier Friday.

If this meets wp's standard of verifiable source, then the article should probably mention this theory that Friday the 13th as a particularly unlucky day is relatively recent. 216.91.12.82 14:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Eh, it's no less reliable a source than the current sources under "External links". I've had this article on my watchlist for a few months, ever since listening to a book review on public radio that argued exactly this point-- that belief in Friday the 13th is a recent phenomenon, and the ancient explanations are just coincidences. Of course, by now I've forgotten the name of the book. Someday I hope to find it and rewrite the article; in the meanwhile, you're welcome to give it a shot. Melchoir 18:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

More from that article -
 * Other sources speculate that the number 13 may have been purposely vilified by the founders of patriarchal religions in the early days of western civilization because it represented femininity. Thirteen had been revered in prehistoric goddess-worshiping cultures, we are told, because it corresponded to the number of lunar (menstrual) cycles in a year (13 x 28 = 364 days). The "Earth Mother of Laussel," for example — a 27,000-year-old carving found near the Lascaux caves in France often cited as an icon of matriarchal spirituality — depicts a female figure holding a cresent-shaped horn bearing 13 notches. As the solar calendar triumphed over the lunar with the rise of male-dominated civilization, it is surmised, so did the number 12 over the number 13, thereafter considered anathema.

Occurence table
What are the letters in the last column ? G, F, GF ? sikander 21:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I had no idea, but they seem to be Dominical letters. I've made it more explicit. Melchoir 21:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The entire section is a mess. The second paragraph under the table doesn't explain exactly what the 400-year cycle is or what it is for. I'm going to fix all of the incorrect plurals (they use parenthesis as it is), but I don't know what to do with the rest. It's a totally haphazard mess. I don't understand it. --True 01:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Occurence table does a terrible job of presenting the information. I think it should be sorted by month or year.  Would anyone have a preference? Hoof Hearted 15:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

While I appreciate Mtcv's offering of a table sorted by domincal letter, I don't think it's very practical. In my opinion people would consult a chart to answer the following typical questions: Thus a chart sorted by month or year could quickly allow one to locate an answer. I doubt someone would say: As it stands, it's very difficult to use the chart to answer the second question. Am I being overcritical? Hoof Hearted 15:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "My birthday is on April 13th, what years will it occur on a Friday?"
 * "It's 2007, what months contain a Friday the 13th this year?"
 * "Let's see, this year is a domincal letter G, when can I expect a Friday the 13th?"

Mathematics of occurrence
True, 4800 is not divisible by 7. But that has nothing to do with whether or not any chosen day of the month can occur the same number of times on each day of the week. Even if 4800 were divisible by 7, the irregularity of the lengths of the months, and the varying length of February, would guarantee that particular days of the month would not be distributed evenly among the days of the week. There are only 11 instances of the 29th in standard years, and 12 in leap years. There are only 11 instances of the 30th, and there are only 7 instances of the 31st in any year. These unavoidable facts are what makes the distribution uneven, not whether 4800 is divisible by 7 or not. JackofOz 12:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It is NOT the irregularity of the month that causes the number that causes the 13th or any other chosen day of the month to occur more often on cetain days of the week. You need only look at the Julian calendar to see this. The irregularity of the months is irrelevant! What is relevant is that the number of days in the cycle is divisible by seven and the number of months is not divisible by seven. Then making the months regular cannot make the 13th fall on each day of the week equally, because that would need the number of occurences of Friday 13th in the cycle to be a fraction. Karl Palmen 09:35, 21 March 2006 UT


 * Hmm, I think you are both right, depending on from which side you look at things. --Boivie 11:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Karl, I can see where you're coming from. Let me think aloud for a moment. In a 400-year Gregorian cycle there are 146,097 days. These consist of:
 * 4,800 instances of each of the days 1st through 28th
 * 4,497 instances of the 29th
 * 4,400 instances of the 30th, and
 * 2,800 instances of the 31st.

There are 4,800 13ths, and because 4,800 is not divisible by 7, we know immediately the 13ths cannot be evenly distributed. And this is true for every day of the month except the 31st, because only 2,800 is divisible by 7. But whether the 31st is actually evenly distributed will depend on where the 2,800 instances happen to fall onto the unvarying cycle of Monday-through-Sunday weekdays. That is determined by the length of the previous month, which varies irregularly. If the previous month had been one day longer or shorter, any day of this month would have occurred one day later or earlier than it does. So, looking at the broad question, the irregularity of the months is an important consideration; but looking at particular dates, the irregularity of the months can be side-tracked for any date except the 31st. OK, we're both right. Thanks for seeing this first, Boivie. JackofOz 15:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I see there are seven occurrences 31st in each year and if they were all to occur on different days of the week in a year from counting March (or the month after where the leap day goes) then the distrubution of 31sts would be even. However the article is about 13ths and the generalisation to 29ths, 30ths and 31sts in not justified if it complicates the explanation about the 13ths. I'll modify the article to exclude 29ths, 30ths and 31sts, because the argument would have to be made more complicated to apply to them too. Karl Palmen 09:20, 22 March

The months do not have to be regular for the 2800 31sts to occur equally on all days of the week. Suppose March, April, May, July, September, October and November have 31 days, February is unchanged and the other four months have 30 days. Then the seven occurences of the 31st would occur on the seven days of the week depending only on the day of week of March 1. If March 1 were a Monday these days would be Wed, Sat, Tue, Sun, Fri, Mon, Thu, respectively. Karl Palmen 10:45, 22 March

The Contrary
While many believe this to be a day of bad luck, I on the other day look forward to this day as a day of Good Luck! I was born on Friday 13th and my Father always told me that if you were born on Friday 13th, it was your lucky day. I've hung on to this notion all of my life and now take off work and use the day to do something fun and exciting. Proof that the power of belief is a mighty, mighty thing. Oh, and just for the record, I do not claim connection to any particular God or diety, simply a Single Divine Creator that I appreciate and stand on equal ground with - in essence "something to believe in". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShaneF13 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 25 April 2006.


 * That's a very positive attitude Shane, and it's certainly an unusual take on Friday 13th, but I'm afraid it's not really suitable for an encyclopedia in its current form! :) MartinRobinson 03:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Freya's (Frigga's) Day
I was told years ago that the reason Friday in particular is unlucky was because it was "Freya's Day" (like Woden's Day, Thor's Day, presumably from the Anglo-Saxon). Idon't know if there is any numerological relevance that would tie Freya in with the number 13, but it may be worth mentioning. Dlmccaslin 03:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I know this is 4months late... but a lot of "holidays" have been absorbed by different faiths. It's not inconceivable that Friday the 13th meant something different to the Anglo saxons. ---J.S (t|c) 20:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why was a lot of this discussion about this on here deleted??

In Portugal and Brazil it's also Friday 13th
So I added 'Portuguese-speaking' cultures to article's heading. You can see that in the PT version of this article. I can not talk about the "bad luck day" being friday 13th in other cultures, but I guess it's not just in Portugal and Brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NeedABrain (talk • contribs)

In Hungary too. I thought it is believed to be unlucky everywhere. (does that make me egoculturecentric and is this a word at all? :D) – Alensha   talk  19:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no reference to countries that do not have this hang-up. In France, for instance, the number thirteen is lucky - like four-leafed clover and horseshoes - and often on Friday the Thirteenth, there are special lotteries to benefit from this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucretia (talk • contribs)


 * This is contradicted by the article on 13 in the French Wikipedia. -- Beland 04:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

History
I was always under the impression that 13 in history had been a regarded as a lucky number and that this had a religious basis, Jesus plus the twelve disciples made thirteen. However in victorian times this view changed and 13 became regarded as Judas, is the unlucky thirteenth person in the group. This ties up with the article above about the "Dictionary of Phrase and Fable".

Any thoughts?GazMan7 09:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Pagens religions sometimes find 13 to be a lucky number. Something to do with the number of lunar months in a year. But I think thats more of a discussion about the number 13 and not Friday the 13th. ---J.S (t|c) 20:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Mayan calendar

 *  The end of the 13th b'ak'tun (December 12, 2012) is conjectured to have been of great significance to the Maya, but does not necessarily mark the end of the world according to their beliefs, but a time of re-birth. According to the Popol Vuh, a book compiling details of creation accounts known to the Quiché Maya of the colonial-era highlands, we are living in the fourth world. The Popol Vuh describes the first three creations that the gods failed in making and the creation of the successful fourth world where men were placed. The Maya believed that the fourth world would end in catastrophe and the fifth and final world would be created that would signal the end of mankind. 


 *  In reality, the Mayans believed that the world would end on October 13, 4772, which is a Friday. This is confirmed by a date from Palenque, which projects forward in time to 1.0.0.0.0.0. The Classic Period Maya obviously did not believe that the end of this age would occur in 2012, but on this later date. 

I removed the above section from the article. It has no sources so it fails WP:V. I must also note that the actual start date (and thus the end date) is under debate and the Mayans never actually used "Friday" in there calender so it might not even be relevant. Anyway... the coincidence might warrant mention but we'd need some sources. ---J.S (t|c) 17:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

rm section

 * The most likely Biblical explanation for Friday the 13th comes from the final plague which God used to bring Egypt to its knees and demonstrate his diety to them and to accomplish the release of His people Isreal. Each of the 10 plagues was a direct revelation/attack on the gods of Egypt. The River Nile was worshipped as a God (it was the life force of Egypt because it irrigated the delta region and provided food) hence it was the 1st "god" that God dealt with. Each of the next plauges also brought down one by one, one of the gods of the Egyptian people (it was a demonstration of YHWH's true diety as opposed to the false diety of the Egyptian gods), and finally with the 10th plague, God brought down Pharoh.


 * The first born son of Pharoh died when the angel of death visited the land of Egypt. To the Egyptians, Pharoh was God on earth, and hence to show him to not be god was necessary. The death of the "son of the Egyptian God "Pharoh" is interesting in that it was through the sacrifice of a son, an innocent son, that God's people were freed.


 * So, since the Jewish day begins and ends with sundown, the passover took place on the 14th of Nisan. But according to the reckoning of the Egyptian/Gentile calendar, it was Friday night on the 13th of the month. Friday the 13th was the day of deliverance for the people of Isreal from the Egyptian (gentile) perspective. And so it was also a foreshadowing of the deliverance of all God's people, for it was by death of the son of the king (Jesus Christ being the Son of God) that the people were freed from their bondage to sin and eternal death.


 * Because this plague took place on the evening of the 13th (it being a Friday as the Jewish Sabboth takes place on Saturday) is why Fridays that fall on the 13th day of the month acquired the superstition that it was a bad day and it is also why the number 13 has a phobia attached to it.

I removed the above section since it contained no sources and had a POV. however, the author might have a point. Can we find some sources for this and rewrite it with a NPOV? ---J.S (t|c) 18:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

paraskevidekatriaphobia
Donald Dossey, a North Carolina psychologist, coined the term "paraskevidekatriaphobia" 20 years ago. Since he coined it, his spelling should be accepted and alternative spellings deleted as incorrect.

Donald Dossey is alive and well.

The word is simply a concatenation of the Greek words for Friday (Paraskevi), thirteen (dekatria), and fear (phobia).

Source: http://washingtontimes.com/national/20061012-115954-3697r.htm


 * Thanks for the source... I think the "alternate" versions were vandalism perhaps. But... if they have popular usage then we can't not mention them. ---J.S (t|c) 04:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Etymology
The word is just a concatenation of three Greek words rather than a Greek word per se. The closest that the Greek language comes to this term is the three-word phrase: "παρασκευή και δεκατρείς", i.e. Friday and thirteen.

In that sense, the phrase "...paraskavedekatriaphobia (from the Greek παρασκευοδεκατριοφοβία..." in the begining of the Article is not precisely correct.

To put it another way, "παρασκευοδεκατριοφοβία" is not a word that you would find in a Greek dictionary.

The Article phrase should rather be: "...paraskavedekatriaphobia (a word that is derived from the concatenation of the Greek words Παρασκευή, δεκατρείς, and φοβία, meaning Friday, thirteen, and phobia respectively..."

Mayan Calendar
What was wrong with the article on the Mayan Calendar? All I was trying to state was that the Mayan Calendar ends on a Friday the 13th? The only reason you deleted it was because you went to search Friday the 13th today (on wikipedia) and noticed it. This wikipedia article only gets traffic on a Friday the 13th, and since you deleted the Mayan Calendar section, nobody will ever know of it! So whats your reasoning behind the deletion? ---User:daveknockwin 12:26 AM, 14 October 2006 (Central)


 * See the section above. Melchoir 05:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

DID U KNOW
Did u know that i am a dog who loves to type. Anyways I think this whole thing about Friday the 13th is stupid what do u guys think?

Reply back


 * It dosn't matter, were here to make articles. Maybe you should check out Dog Food? :) ---J.S (t|c) 03:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Notable Births and Deaths
There seems to be a bit of wheel recreation going on here. Someone has recently removed a long list of names of celebrities who were born or died on Friday 13th. This removal hasn't been questioned, but maybe it should have been. Now, somebody else seems to be starting from scratch with Castro and the Olsen twins. We need a consensus - do we have such a list, or not. I vote for YES, and to take the list that was recently removed and reformat it so that names appear once only. JackofOz 05:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing it.
The "Friday the 13th Snow Storm" is pure fiction. I'm taking it out.


 * Reply:
 * It is not fiction - Before making such a statement all you had to do was Google something like "Buffalo Friday 13th storm" to find out that you are completely wrong.

Next year in 2007 Friday the 13th is on April 13th and I am born on April 13th.(Munkhzaya Boldbaatar)
 * Ummm ok. ---J.S (t|c) 20:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity in Occurrence section
"Thus, the total number weeks in the Gregorian Calendar cycle is 20,871. Because of this, no chosen day of the month up to the 28th can occur the same number of times on each day of the week."

The logic is hard to follow (or does not follow), because the antecedent to this is ambiguous. Please consider revising to explain what this is.

Good luck
I'm Italian so this is good luck. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.113.131.124 (talk • contribs).