Talk:Friedrich Karm

WP:RETAIN
Would appear to be relevant here; edit warring over this will go no where, so the original style should be maintained unless there is a consensus to change it. BilledMammal (talk) 16:42, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The last stable version before H2ppyme and Klõps began edit warring is this, so I agree that style should be maintained. All I have done is convert the external links to in-line citations. GiantSnowman 17:07, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * A month on a low-traffic article isn't enough to make the version stable; I've reverted to the one immediately before that, which was used since 2011. BilledMammal (talk) 17:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * So you're going to let the POV-pushers win? Great. GiantSnowman 17:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm recognizing that both "sides" could be seen as pushing a POV, and saying that any side which wants to change from the status quo should get a consensus per WP:BRD and MOS:RETAIN. BilledMammal (talk) 17:19, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * MOS:GEO is clear, but ignore that, that's fine. Also ignore that H2ppyme was doing the B and I was doing the R and they refused to D. GiantSnowman 17:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think MOS:GEO is clear on this, given current usage, and given that it is unclear which article should be targeted. And it would seem that H2ppyme was doing the R, after "Estonian SSR" was boldly inserted. BilledMammal (talk) 17:46, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * We'll have to agree to disagree. The edit before had been unchallenged for a month, and at no point did H2ppyme they were Ring. GiantSnowman 18:42, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

, Birth death info was added to the infobox in 2013!!! dif and it was Tallinn, Estonia until 23 January 2022. For nearly ten years this article had it the way most of the Estonian articles are and have been since decade ago, until a month ago. Klõps (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

you should undue your edit & restore "Estonian SSR". GoodDay (talk) 19:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree; currently the article is at the status quo. Further, weltfussball, the only source to mention his birth place or nationality, lists them as "Estonian". I'll note that I've been unable to find any other sources on this individual, and plan to nominate them for deletion shortly which should resolve the dispute. BilledMammal (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Karm is clearly notable. Yet more waste of everybody's time and effort. Give it a rest. GiantSnowman 20:04, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Also if there are good-faith editors asking for it to be changed, that is the consensus. GiantSnowman 20:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * BM, I don't know why you're being stubborn about this. From what I've seen in the last few days, you certainly haven't been neutral on the topic. GoodDay (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Karm is not clearly notable - the only coverage I can find of them is in databases. And if there is a consensus to change it, it should be changed - but I am not seeing a consensus to change it, with two editors opposed to a change and two editors for a change, with myself leaning towards opposing a change in this case, though sources that use "Estonian SSR" rather than "Estonia" would change my mind. BilledMammal (talk) 20:18, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * At least you're admitting to 'not' being neutral. GoodDay (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No, of course he is notable - and do you not think it's not unusual somebody active 90 years ago might not have a large online presence?! Sources do not matter with the country name, MOS:GEO is clear we use the correct historical name. GiantSnowman 20:24, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Then you will be able to provide sources showing that. Regarding MOS:GEO, it tells us to use the widely accepted historical English name, which means the sources do matter in the absence of a broader consensus about what that name is. BilledMammal (talk) 20:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Nope; WP:WHEN makes it clear that things like that do not need to be cited. It is common sense that 'Estonia' did not exist before 1991, the country at that time was the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic. GiantSnowman 20:43, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The existence of the Republic of Estonia isn't relevant to whether the widely accepted historical English name is "Estonia" or "Estonian SSR" for the period under Soviet rule. As for whether it did exist, that is a complicated question - see State continuity of the Baltic states. BilledMammal (talk) 20:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * From what I can tell. You're in the minority here & are obstructing any changes. I believe GiantSnowman would have a case about that, if he were to change Estonia to ESSR & was reverted by you 'again'. GoodDay (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

BM - H2ppyme is now blocked and that is likely to become indef, and Klõps is edging closer to a topic ban, both for removing reference to 'Estonian SSR' - the same edit you are maintaining here. Is this really the hill to die on? GiantSnowman 17:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * And hell ... why is Estonia listed as a birthplace in the first place? The revisionist POV doesn't apply here: Estonia was a de jure subject of the Russian Empire in 1907.   Ravenswing      20:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Indeed, why is Estonia listed as the death place. It should be "Estonian SSR", as they were still a part of the Soviet Union, in 1980. GoodDay (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The place of death is complicated, both in terms of what the widely accepted historical English name is, and what the country was de jure. I think we should open an RFC on whether to use "Estonian SSR", "Latvian SSR", and "Lithuanian SSR" or "Estonia", "Latvia", and "Lithuania". BilledMammal (talk) 01:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Would have to be for the association football articles. GoodDay (talk) 04:37, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify what you mean? BilledMammal (talk) 04:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Open an RFC on the WikiProject that covers this sport. GoodDay (talk) 04:44, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No need to limit the scope; it applies as much to writers and politicians as it does to football players. BilledMammal (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You'll not get a consensus on such a wide scope. Also, the ice hockey articles are already settled, so there's no need for an RFC on them. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * We'll see. BilledMammal (talk) 05:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It's up to you, if you want to stir up a lot of sh-t. Which will end up in the same result as mere months ago. GoodDay (talk) 05:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't want to, but it appears that we need to try and get some clarity on this. The last RFC was not well attended; a properly publicized one might produce a consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 05:16, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There is clarity already. Some editors want to re-write history, while others don't. GoodDay (talk) 05:18, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Whether it was an occupation or an annexation is irrelevant; all that matters is what the widely accepted historical English name is, and if we can contain the debate to that I believe it will avoid being the mess that you fear it will become. BilledMammal (talk) 05:27, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It's your choice. GoodDay (talk) 05:28, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There is no need for a RFC when MOS:GEO is clear that we use the historically accurate name. GiantSnowman 06:54, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Historically accurate name is Republic of Estonia. Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic was a scam government set up by the occupying Soviet Union. It was set up illegally and was not internationally recognized. It was same as Russian set ups in Ukraine Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic or from the same era Finnish Democratic Republic etc. While the territory of Estonia was under Soviet occupation, Estonian state still existed, it had recognized diplomatic missions in the west Baltic Legations (1940–1991) and Estonian government-in-exile.
 * But the important part is the widely accepted historical English name
 * Library of US Congress newspaper archive 1940-1963 search Results:
 * Estonia – 2759
 * Estonian SSR – 1
 * Estonian S.S.R. – 1
 * Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic – 1


 * British Newspaper Archive results from 1940–1990 for:
 * +estonian -ssr – 9790
 * +estonian +soviet +socialist +republic – 95
 * +estonian +ssr – 24
 * Regards Plingen Plungen (talk) 10:00, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm replying here, since this is the content dispute, not the ANI, but I would like to raise one point. You compare LPR and DPR to this situation: I don't see it. LPR and DPR are self-described independent states that have no international recognition, technically aren't occupied or controlled by Russia fully, and up until Feb 24th of this year, were fighting the Ukrainians anyway without "official" Russian support (I know, I know, there's more to that statement, but roll with me here). The closer equivalency to me is the Republic of Crimea, which was invaded, and annexed, by Russia, and doesn't hold widespread international recognition (read as almost none) as being a valid annexation. However, it doesn't change the fact, as referenced in reliable sources, that the land of "Republic of Crimea" is on is currently occupied and controlled by Russia, the people who live there live under Russian law, and it is referred in that and several other articles to as a de facto constituent part of the Russian federation.
 * I don't think there is much disagreement that Russia de facto controls Crimea, even if someone doesn't like that fact, because it's pretty quick and clear that it is verifiable and accurate. I also don't think there is any dispute that the area that was Estonia before WWII was controlled by the Soviets when Karm died in 1980. Even if you want to claim the legitimate government of Estonia was the exiled one, it doesn't change the fact that this person died on land that, at the time, was controlled by the USSR, called the Estonian SSR, and the Estonian government you want to reference had absolutely nothing to do with political, or any sort of, control of that territory at the time. Do I agree with you that the Baltic occupation didn't have widespread recognition? Of course. But If doesn't change that de facto control of the land that, pre-1940 and post 1991, was Estonia, was in Soviet hands for 50 years. FrederalBacon (talk) 01:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree mostly, but it is not a forum here do discuss political worldviews. What I have tried to say is that there were two things that were both true he lived on the territory controlled by the Estonian SSR and in the same time it was also internationally recognized as Republic of Estonia. Both are true facts.
 * As discussed above MOS:GEO tells to use the widely accepted historical English name. As sources given above show the common name used at the time was just Estonia. Common name is used all similar cases. Carl I. Hagen born 1944 in Oslo, Norway even if it was controlled by Germany and called the Reichskommissariat Norwegen, Rutger Hauer 1944 Utrecht, Netherlands not written Reichskommissariat Niederlande, Robert Lewandowski 1987 Warsaw, Poland, not written Polish People's Republic etc.
 * If the person is notable for their connection to Soviet era then it is written in the body of the article. Friedrich Karm played his 13 national team matches from 1930 to 1933. There's nothing notable after that. I don't understand why the problem about this small detail. for ten years this article had just Estonia in infobox, then these people came and changed it. Like all the Estonian articles are in the same style, and now changing this to same style as all the rest is a problem. Plingen Plungen (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * He died in the USSR. We shouldn't be trying to dabble in re-writing history, by claiming he died in Estonia. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Would the following be more acceptable to anyone?
 * Estonia, then part of the USSR.
 * It would the text would show Estonia, per common usage, but link to the historical construct (where any discussion of validity should be), while also stating that the area was under Soviet control. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 08:43, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It should be either "[Estonian SSR], [Soviet Union]" or just "[Soviet Union]" GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Just an aside, is there is reason for the preference of Soviet Union over USSR? Wikipedia typically uses the shortened form when it's commonly used, e.g. USA, UK, etc. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:16, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * As to the SSR part, this is just the naming of a subdivision. We wouldn't use The county of Kent, United Kingdom but Kent, United Kingdom , which is why I wonder if it's necessary. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 18:25, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Tallinn, USSR", is also acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be fine - definitely not 'then in X' or similar. GiantSnowman 18:59, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't have any trouble with that. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:04, 1 September 2022 (UTC)