Talk:Friendship Highway (China–Nepal)

Recent title changes
The section of the G318 between Lhasa and Dram (Zhangmu) is commonly known in English as the "Friendship Highway". The title of the page Friendship Highway (Tibet) did reflect the common English name (as well as WP disambiguation policy), until it was repeatedly moved to names not common in English:
 * 27/01/2011: moved Friendship Highway (Tibet) to China-Nepal Highway
 * 29/12/2011restored original title Friendship Highway (Tibet)
 * 25/03/2012 Moved page Friendship Highway (Tibet) to China-Nepal Highway
 * 25/02/2012: moved page China-Nepal Highway to China-Nepal Friendship Highway
 * 25/03/2012: moved page China-Nepal Friendship Highway to China-Nepal Highway

The two arguments given for the move to "China-Nepal Highway" were "common name" and "official name". The problem is that "China-Nepal Highway" is neither the common nor the official name in English. The denomination "China-Nepal Highway" is possibly a recent translation (Chinese to English) from Chinese blog/media, but that doesn't make it the official name, which is not not a Wikipedia policy anyway. The section of the G318 (G318 is the official name for the whole road, by the way) between Lhasa and Dram (Zhangmu) is usually known under the simple naming of "Friendship Highway". The title "China-Nepal Highway" is also misleading as the "Friendship Highway" (and the WP article) is not describing a bi-national road extending in both China and Nepal, but a stretch of the road within Chinese territory only, and more precicely the part between Lhasa and Dram within Tibet.

I have tried to restore the original name, but this is technically impossible due to the various name change by editors who did not use the talk page before doing some controversial or potentially controversial moves. In order to avoid a similar mess as it happened at the Shishapangma page, I would like to propose that:
 * 1) first an admin could restore the original title "Friendship Highway (Tibet)"
 * 2) then any editor wishing to change the title should do it using the present talk page and corresponding "move request" procedure.

Thanks for any further suggestion. Pseudois (talk) 15:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. It appears that "Friendship Highway" is the common name the sources available use for this particular stretch of road. It was also suggested, with no opposition, that (China-Nepal) would be a better disambiguator than (Tibet). Aervanath (talk) 20:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: On my computer the difference between the various dashes is not usually clear. If I have inadvertently used the wrong dash, please be WP:BOLD and correct it; no further move request is necessary.--Aervanath (talk) 20:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

China-Nepal Highway → Friendship Highway (Tibet) –
 * Request in my user talk page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:19, 19 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Support as per arguments given above, in particular COMMONNAME. Note that this is not a proposal for a new name, but simply restoring the previously existing title, which was renamed without discussion on the talk page.--Pseudois (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose since the information in the Talk/proposal above seems mixed up. The whole road is known as the China-Nepal Highway 中尼公路 from Lhasa to Kathmandu. It consists of the last section of China National Highway 318 which runs from Shanghai to Zhangmu on the China-Nepal border, at the Sino-Nepal Friendship Bridge 友谊桥 plus the 115 km long Araniko Highway to Kathmandu. No trace of "Friendship Highway" 友谊公路 in Chinese sources (nor in zh.wp article zh:中尼公路). It does appear in English sources, but the question is, where did it originate? An email from a backpacker to Lonely Planet editors? Or an official name in a Chinese or Nepal govt report? The first mention I can see on Google Scholar G. Meon Estimation of glacier lake outburst flood and its impact on a hydro project in Nepal IAHS Publications 1993 "The former destroyed the Friendship Highway Bridge on the China-Nepal highway and the intake dam of Sunkosi hydroelectric station." .. then on from there, in other words the name for the bridge has been incorrectly transferred onto the highway by English editors (and I see a French backpackers' guide has copied Lonely Planet) who can't read/speak Chinese. It's not en.wp's job to perpetuate mistakes by travel writers. Article should follow more careful Google Scholar usage, and note Lonely Planet's mistake somewhere below the lede. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "The whole road is known as the China-Nepal Highway 中尼公路 from Lhasa to Kathmandu. The present article is not about the Lhasa-Kathmandu road, it is about the Lhasa-Dram (Zhangmu) road, which is known as the "Friendship Highway" in English. The article in the Chinese WP you are referring to is about the whole Lhasa-Kathmandu road; I have nothing to object with that article in the Chinese WP, as this is the term the road is referred to in recent Chinese publications (mainly Chinese tourist blogs and online news reports), even though it is not an official denomination in Nepal. But this is English Wikipedia, and we should only have articles on concepts that are notable enough in English language. The term "Friendship Highway" for the road Lhasa-Dram/Zhangmu/Kasa is notable enough to have its own article in the English Wikipedia, the term "China-Nepal Highway" (Lhasa-Kathmandu) is not notable enough in English to have its own article in the English Wikipedia. By the way, I don't know what lonely planet has to do with this article, the term "Friendship Highway" has been used since decades by Chinese authorities in Tibet to refer to the road, and this is where you will find the origin of the term in English. Not in online blogs/articles.Pseudois (talk) 09:05, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Pseudois, can you provide some evidence of this statement please? ""Friendship Highway" has been used since decades by Chinese authorities in Tibet to refer to the road, .." If it has been used in English why is there no trace of it in Chinese sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:07, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * If you have access to it, you may want to check the Peking Review, around 1967 or so. I guess this predates lonely planet and wikipedia by a few decades, doesn't it?--Pseudois (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I see it on Google Books. But why does it not reappear after 1x mention in 1967? And it also uses "Friendship Highway" 1x of the China-Laos highway in 1983. The term "Friendship Highway" 友谊公路 is evidently generic and can refer to several roads so not surprising that recent sources of Chinese and English-in-China usage all refer to the Sino-Pakistan Friendship Highway 中巴友谊公路. The issue whether this rename is (i) to WP:COMMONNAME and (ii) to other criteria, including accuracy and not perpetuating neologisms. I'm far from convinced. However I did search further and finally found http://www.xici.net/d108314016.htm 中尼友谊公路 and 中尼友谊公路 in Google Books. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * PS. It is true that the term "Friendship Highway" is often used by extension to the whole Lhasa-KTM road (including the Kodari-KTM stretch) by tourists companies and in Western tourist blogs, but the term "Friendship Highway" is not used within Nepal (neither in English nor in Nepali). I would rather object to such extension in the current article as this would clearly introduce a Western bias, in a same way that the article in the Chinese WP has a Sino-centred bias. The article as it is currently does not need to be extended geographically, and the recent title change should not have been done without discussion (see WP:BRD).Pseudois (talk) 09:30, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, what evidence is there of the term "often" being used? The article in zh.wp is accurately representative of Chinese sources in that the term "Friendship Highway" simply doesn't exist in Chinese (in relation to this road), and seems only to exist in English as either a Wikipedia neologism or Lonely Planet neologism, whichever came first. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:07, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't we be discussing the English Wikipedia rather than the Chinese one? What matters is how people call this road in English, not in Chinese. The issue is not whether someone it right or wrong by using a certain name, the issue is what is the most common in English. PS: I was actually going in your direction by saying that the whole Lhasa-KTM road is "often" referred to by the same name... --Pseudois (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay but what evidence is there? Doesn't it strike you as odd that Lonely Planet is using a name not documented in more formal (i.e. academic) sources. Going strictly by number of GB hits there'd be a case
 * "China-Nepal Highway" 694
 * "friendship highway" +nepal 888
 * Mmmm. But the quality, content, context of the quotes don't make a strong case - combined with the paucity of Chinese sources. I wonder if the issue may be that to westerners (Lonely Planet contributors) the 1960s name sounds suitably socialist and political, wheras to modern Chinese (and even modern Chinese official sources) it may sound a bit too socialist and political, hence the more simple, neutral and descriptive term "China-Nepal Highway" being preferred. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You're certainly right regarding the reason for the name shift within China. But I think it is not the mission of WP to follow (or even amplify) recent political trends, but simply to report common usage, in a fully apolitical way. Pages related to China in general and Tibet in particular in the English WP do often suffer from such bias, with Chinese editors trying to reshape the articles in order to fit the most recent official trends within China.


 * Hundreds of articles have been renamed and do poorly reflect English usage (or let's say English usage outside PRC), and I do believe that WP is losing both quality and credibility by such indiscriminate edits. It is exactly the same as if a French speaking editor would suddenly change Lake Geneva or Genfersee into Lake Léman or Lemansee based on the official name in French. That would be simply ridiculous. In the particular case of this article, it is even more ridiculous as the terms "China-Nepal Highway" or "Friendship Highway" do not correspond to any official Chinese (and even less Nepalese) road naming convention (G318 does), so WP:COMMONNAME seems to be the only policy applicable.


 * It is also very annoying that these editors never use the talk page before moving articles. As a result of the continuous title changes, it is often not possible to move back to the original title for reasons that have been discussed in length at the talk:Shishapangma page.


 * Interestingly the same editor who moved the Friendship Highway article in the English WP also moved it in the French Wikipedia, but without applying any consistency as he kept the name "Amitié" in the title. It actually looks like he doesn't even understand the language in which he is editing, as his multiple errors in spelling "Chine" and "Népal" seems to indicate: see here here here herehere.


 * I fully respect your arguments, and do agree with most of them, I simply wish we could exchange about it in a move request that would go the other way round. Regards, --Pseudois (talk) 08:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Pseudois, I do hear what you're saying and the discussion of this has been interesting and informative. My oppose is much less strong now that I see there is some support both in older Chinese sources and older English sources for Friendship Highways (this disamb page could do with the Nanning-Hanoi Highway being linked up somewhere).
 * btw We haven't mentioned this yet but the disambiguator (Tibet) I'm less convinced about. Is the article only for the Tibet section? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment and request. I will not vote yet on this RM, but I note that the hyphenated form China-Nepal Highway (or similar forms seen in the move history) is plainly against well-settled Wikipedia styling that calls for an en dash: China–Nepal Highway. This matter is straightforward, and independent of the current discussion. See WP:ENDASH, part of WP:MOS.
 * I request that an admin make that move now, as an uncontroversial technical correction. (Let there be a reversal of the redirect arrangement that I have just put in place for the en dash form.) The present discussion can then proceed without distraction. If this correction is not made and a hyphen persists after this RM, I will have to issue a further RM to have it changed to an en dash, which would waste time and energy.
 * ♫♪! N oetica Tea? 01:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Support a move. To address In ictu oculi's last concern, I would suggest (China–Nepal) as the qualifier, or move to the "natural" disambiguated title China–Nepal Friendship Highway or Friendship Highway, China–Nepal (en-dashes instead of dashes, per Noetica's note). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.