Talk:Frieza/Archive 2

Pic
I hear there is a redesign of Mecha Frieza for Super Dragon Ball Z. Can someone put a pic in the article? I think it would be beneficial, as a new character design for Frieza hasn't happened in years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buster Sword (talk • contribs).
 * Nemu reinserted the pic, but I'm trying to figure how to insert it into the text so it won't look quite so awkward. Voice of Treason 21:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC
 * Maybe stick it in the appearance section instead? Nemu 21:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nah... we'll figure something out. It's a VG design, so we'll figure out the best way for it to go around there. I'ts not a problem. Voice of Treason 21:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He looks like... it's s-sooooo... b-but... nevermind. Papacha 06:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

not EVERY Dragonball Z villian is sadistic
As of recently, the characters Babidi, Cell, Coola, Dodoria, Majin Buu, Nappa, Raditz, and Vegita have all been listed under fictional sadists. Although all of these characters have willingly inflicted pain on others, they do not all do so JUST FOR THE SAKE OF IT! Where Freeza clearly enjoys causing others suffering, and will often deliberatly hold back from killing his opponent just to torture them for amusement, most of the other antagonists do not seem to enjoy torturing others in and of itself, but rather have some other motive, even if similar. Vegita, Nappa, and Raditz appeared to simply want to prove thier own strength by killing the protagonists, and also the formwer two had a secondary motive of aqqiring the Dragonballs. Likewise, Cell brutalized the Z fighters solely to anger Gohan, as to force him to become SS 2, and in that regard his motive was that he wanted a challenge. Majin Buu essentially had the mind of a young child, and as such he did not seem cruel so much as neive. Even in his later forms, his goals only seemed to be to challenge hiself and prove his own strength. Even though the characters are shown to be pleased as the protagonists suffer, this seems to be because they are pleased that they are superior to thier enemies, not just because the protagonists are suffering, and as such could be regarded a typical "bad guy" show of arrogance. Further, almost every Dragonball villain is also being listed as a psychopath. As stated in the discussion area for Fictional psychopaths, the criteria for that category are MUCH more than just being amoral and ruthless, and before placing articles under an already grossly overpopulated category, one should actualy read the critera listed in that category. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.24.232.29 (talk • contribs) 66.24.232.29 (UTC)

Your argument condradicts the point you are trying to make. All the villains you mentioned are sadists (not that most have their own articles). If you fight and brutalize someone simply because you want to prove you're stronger, it means you're a sadist. If you torture someone you bring out the enemy's hidden powers that also means you're a sadist. If anyone prolongs a fight they are sure they can win, they are most certainly sadists. Whoever you are, your argument for the population of Dragon Ball villains in the category "Fictional sadists" (Which doesn't even exist anymore) is quite frankly silly. Correct if i'm wrong but I'm not sure you completely understand the definition of sadist. As I remind you again, prolonging suffering, even in the case of arrogance (which Freeeza does himself so I really don't know what basis you're arguing from) is in fact, a sadistic tendency. Just because someoone is arrogant doesn't mean the person isn't also sadistic. that simply means the person is narcissistic and sadistic. Your argument for Majin Buu is, quite frankly, even more stupid. Why even point out the Majin Buu first seen at all? Most don't believe he's an outright sadist anyway, since he was following the orders of his masters, the fact he somewhat enjoyed it shows he has an element of evil in him, and yes, sadism. Besides, when Buu was listed under "fictional sadists" they were reerring specifically to his other forms, which by the way definitely fit under the fictional sadist despriction and the forms ALL SHARE THE SAME ARTICLE! Babidi is also a sadist, as he enjoyed disposing of his own henchmen when he had no use for them, and he enjoyed seeing them writhe in pain. Cell went back in time because he wanted to absorb Androids 17 and 18, and cause more suffering and pain to the world. Whether Vegeta and Nappa had alternative methods or not, they still enjoyed brutalizing the protagonists, and I personally believe that they would not go to a distant planet, for magical orbs that grant almost any wish seeingthat their comrade is dead and expect the native would just give it to them. Obviously they were expecting a fight (an easy fight) and didn't mind if they had to use force, In fact they would probably even prefer if there was resistance as 1.) They are Saiyans and thus, love fights, and 2.) They would make taking the Dragon Balls much more enjoyable. I also like to point out that every Dragon Ball villain is  NOT listed as fictional psychopaths, and to do so would be stupid. Freeza is probably the best example of a sadist in Dragon Ball, simply because it is so apparent of his cruelty, and what you seem to be doing is comparing all the noted villains to Freeza is again, frankly, quite stupid. You seem not to understand what a sadist is so to clarify it for you, A sadist is one who delights in the pain of others. Read a dictionary once in a while, or better yet an encyclopedia. Maybe you should try Wikipedia Uglyguy2006 21:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, perhaps you are the one who should read a dictionary. A sadist is a person who derives sexual pleasure from the torture or torment of others. Someone who causes others pain or suffering for others, without any sexual motivations, is by definition not a sadist.PiccoloNamek (talk) 13:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much every Dragon Ball Z villain is a sadist, apart from the antagonist's minor henchmen, like the ones that Mecha Freeza had. Elite henchmen are sadists because they have a higher authority than the minor henchmen, they are stronger than most and I remember Zarbon repeatedly headbutting Vegeta just for the sake of being cruel (although Zarbon cared more about beauty than being sadistic). Vegeta was sadistic in the start of Z because he wanted to prove that he was stronger than all his opponents and he was the Prince Of Saiyans. He couldn't face being defeated (example: When Goku owned him at Kaio-ken x3) and would go to desperate measures just to defeat his opponent. Nappa wasn't as sadistic as the rest, even though he was an elite, but played with his opponents a bit before finishing them off. With Freeza, pain was like going to the amusement park for him. Cell wasn't as sadistic either, because he could've killed Trunks when he realised that his speed was diminishing at Super Saiyan 3rd Grade, but it wasn't worth it because he always wanted to challenge a new opponent that was as strong as he was. Fat Boo was a playful child, didn't know the difference between right and wrong and just did what Babidi told him to do. He wasn't sadistic, but by the time of when he was Super Boo, he was a little more sadistic and kill anyone if he didn't get a challenge. Kid Boo was just an assassin, didn't give a damn who he killed, like Fat Boo, just without anyone telling him to do it. There's my conclusion, most DBZ villains are sadists. And no, they are not sexually motivated killers. PiccoloNamek, why don't you play DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi game series sometime, and see what Android 18's ultimate move is? Son Gohan (talk) 12:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Cooler and Kuriza
In the article, these characters are mentioned as though they are first level cannon. Can we please take them out of the main article and place them in a non-manga cannon section? Beowulph 00:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * We really don't need to separate canon and non-canon besides a quick mention if nessesary unless it contradicts something. Nemu 01:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Footnotes and deferrals are given when these characters are mentioned, whether when first mentioned in text or the bio-box. There's no reason to segregate these two out of their current place. Voice of Treason 18:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Family tree
Regarding this edit, I have asked for some opinions at WFA, in case you are curious. -- ReyBrujo 05:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Frieza's 5 Minutes Until Boom Statement
In his battle with Goku, Frieza claimed Namek'd go boom in Five minutes. But they still have time to stare at each other, fight, make a wish, talk, stare some more, Goku talked to King Kai, and get cut in half(Frieza). That was more like FIVE HOURS!--suit-n-tie 04:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's the reason I consider everything after that point non-canon. There really isn't an explanation for that, it's just a plot hole. It's possible that it was a translation error, though.-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 22:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What does this have to do with the article? This talk page is for discussing the article, not what the article is about. If you have something constructive to say, please do so. Otherwise, please find a message board or forum to speak of such things.


 * Daishokaioshin 22:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of the fight was filler. It was fairly short in the manga. Nemu 22:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Huh... I skipped that part of the manga. (Sweatdrop) Nevermind the translation error thing, then.-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 22:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it'd be prudent to remember that Freeza, not Toriyama, said it'd be five minutes. He also said that his attack would destroy the planet and was surprised it still existed after he blasted it. It's quite possible he was simply mistaken.  Beowulph 23:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, but seriously, five minutes? That is hardly enough time for that fight. Freeza must have poor math skills. It was a stretch, I guess.--suit-n-tie 21:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I pointed this out on a board once, but on that subject there are two things to keep in mind. The first is that destabilizing a planet's core is tricky business and would be hard to pinpoint to the exact minute even with sophisticated instrumentation (which Freeza was not using). Which means he was bluffing to a degree and guessing to another, getting under Goku's skin. The other thing is that Freeza's concept of a minute should be completely different from Goku's (to say nothing of what a Namekian standard minute would be). Since time is pretty much calculated on the day-night cycle on Earth, and we know nothing of Freeza's homeworld or if his army has a standard unit of time that they all use, it wouldn't necessarily be based on a 24 hr day (and thus 5 minutes wouldn't necessarily be 300 seconds). And yes, as was said, the manga version of the battle was much shorter. Goku is not beaten into a temporary coma and the non-fight scenes are dramatically less. Onikage725


 * Holy crap, that's a good explanation. Should we put that in the article or in Namek so this question isn't asked so frequently?-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!)
 * Good explanation, but where did you find this out?-- Suit-n -ti  e  05:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is all very interesting, but none of it has anything to do with the article. As has been pointed out to Suit-n-tie repeatedly on various talk pages, the discussion pages are for talking about the ARTICLE and >NOT< what the article is ABOUT. Please don't encourage the asking of pointless questions by continuing to discuss this. I'm sure there are plenty of message boards out there this could be talked about on.


 * Daishokaioshin 05:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Jeez, you didn't have to bring that up, I get it okay? I'll stop. I'm only human, ya know.-- Suit-n -ti  e  03:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

it just takes 5 minutes. they are moving much faster than we see them do. just a plot hole all other theories are bullshit.-Zadsat 18:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Very true. If we were watching them, in a blink of an eye, Freeza would be cut in half and Goku would be standing there beaten up. We'd be like, wtf just happened? Those two were fine like three seconds ago. :|.

-G


 * I'm watching the saga again. Frieza says that "...most planets would have blown by now. But this is a tough old bird, i'll give her two more minutes". So there is your answer.

-G

In one of the episodes King Kai makes reference to the 5 minuits statement saying that most of the 5 minuits had already been used up. In the episode where Frieza says 2 more minutes you might be able to see how long it actually takes them to talk, stare, and fight since at the end of the episode the narrator says theres one minute left. Also thats a good theory about alien time compared to space time, I remember when Vegeta took a nap and announced that it was going to be for 30 minutes but when Krillen had come back Gohan told him that Vegeta was sleeping for at least an hour, I don't remember it perfectly but it was deff over an hour. Oh and Frieza probably has blown up many planets before so he probably knows how long it would take, theres got to be a power of the blast / time ratio for the destruction of the planet which maybe he misjudged. Lucasthalefty 13:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Freeza was probably either bluffing, or he just overestimated his strength. Son Gohan (talk) 12:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Consider this, the anime cuts away several times, which can assume to occur concurrently with the fight between Goku and Vegeta. Also consider abilities, goku and Frieza are fighting, and they both have the ability to annihilate planets, they can probablly move fast enough to fit an hour or so worth of moves into five minutes. Also consider that they like to make money so they drew out the fight, it's as simple as that, don't get so pedantic, don't try to explain something with no explaination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adroa (talk • contribs) 23:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah we all know what an incredible sense of time Frieza has —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digman14 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

removal
I removed zarbon from relations as the ginyu force are top fighters and i could not find a way to word zarbon on there. - Zadsat 18:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * whatever —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.163.215.253 (talk • contribs).

GA nomination failed
In no way is this ready to be a good article. Only one point is out of universe. It has only one non-primary source, and it really contains no other real sources. The writing is fairly sub-par, and it contians too much fan information. This needs to be condensed, given a rewrite, and should get out of universe information before being bothered with. TTN 21:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Frieza should not have a son listed in this article.
This article should only be DBZ related.
 * I don't see why he can't be mentioned. As long as it's noted Kuriza is only in Neko Majin, it's okay. // Decaimiento Poético  20:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it lends to an out of universe perspective as well, doesn't it?Onikage725 14:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Frieza's Death Ball ten times the size? I don't think so
In the article, it says that on Earth, Frieza makes a Death Ball ten times the size of the Death Ball used to destroy Planet Vegeta. I highly doubt so; The Death Ball that was created for Planet Vegeta was almost as big as Planet Vegeta, and the Death Ball created for Trunks was about the size of King Cold's spaceship. The Death Ball was at least 100x smaller.83.81.238.19 23:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, I made some mistakes on my Death Ball comment
As big as Planet Vegeta, what was I saying... It was by far not as big as the planet, but it was still alot bigger than the Death Ball for Trunks (look at when the Death Ball hits Planet Vegeta and you see how HUGE it must've been, as big as a whole country at least!).83.81.238.19 23:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This MUST be made clear!
I don't understand several people are telling me that King Cold in his Form 2 state was more powerful than the Mecha-Freeza seen with him on Earth. This hasn't been made clear. And what about Coola? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.111.223.14 (talk) 00:57, August 30, 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool is from 2 non-canon movies, so his power relative to his father's is never discussed. In fact, the 5th movie was made prior to the Trunks arc of the TV series, which is why Coola never mentions King Cold. As for Cold and Freeza... I dont have on hand right now, but I'm pretty sure when sensing Freeza's power they remark that there is a greater power with him (which would have been Cold). Onikage725 04:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll add to this; King Cold is weaker than Frieza, the evidence for this is that he is somewhat afraid of Frieza. EX: Cold acts frightened while Frieza attacks Future Trunks, saying "You'll destroy us all!" or something to that affect, can't remember word for word. Anyway, if Cold was stronger than Frieza, he would have been more like "Is that all, Frieza? I could do better than that" or at least would act like it was no big deal. Cooler is stronger than Frieza, thus he is stronger than King Cold. As for the power sensing arguement, the Z-warriors don't say that there was a greater power than Frieza, they say there is a power as STRONG as Frieza, making them fairly equal in power.24.118.227.213 04:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's all fanon though. I don't mean offense, I'm just saying fan theories aren't our thing on Wikipedia. Also, when they first sense the two they do talk about it like they're comparable, but in the next episode Vegeta says Cold is stronger. It's the scene where he and Yamcha are flying. Yamcha is amazed at Vegeta's level of speed, and Vegeta is upset that Goku "went too easy" on Freeza. Then he starts wondering who the other power is, with a ki much larger than Freeza's.Onikage725 03:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is just a guess, but couldnt the larger power level have been Trunks? Since Trunks Ki was much stronger than Frieza's. **BM** 23:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Trunks is a valid possiblity, it could also be an oversight on to part of the developers, a translation error, or somesuch.24.118.227.213 10:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Again- that's fan-theory. And it negates two facts. Trunks supresses his power (shows up on a scouter as a "5"), and Freeza/Cold don't. There is NO way that when the Z Senshi were sensing a power comparable to Freeza, with Freeza, and similar in feeling to Freeza, that they were overlooking Cold and sensing Trunks. Trunks didn't power up until he confronted Freeza, and his ki would feel nothing like Freeza's. In fact, when he goes SSJ, Gohan senses the ki surge and thinks it is Goku. Onikage725 10:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This issue seems to contradict itself over and over again, but that is very common in dbz.24.118.227.213 22:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the short of it is this- the manga states them as similar to each other, and the anime goes a step further and says Cold is the stronger of the two (which makes sense- didn't Freeza tell Goku that noone had ever been capable of making him feel physical pain except for his parents?). Add to this the fact that their threat was so short-lived (2 episodes in the anime and even briefer in the manga) that there really isn't much else to go into or draw from on this. Onikage725 15:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Also take into account that Frieza often claimed he was the strongest in the Universe, therefore showing his father must be weaker, otherwise he wouldn't claim it. We all know he obviously wasn't the strongest compared to Broly etc, but to his knowledge he was the strongest in the universe. What's more is that he claimed this before he became mecha Frieza, and mecha Frieza was even stronger than the original.  **BM**  22:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BM-1988 (talk • contribs)


 * Once more, this is fan-theory. Toriyama had not yet invented anyone stronger than Freeza, for one thing. It also isn't uncommon for villains to overestimate themselves. Vegeta does it all the time, Cell did it a few times, Freeza did it against both Goku and Trunks. I'm pretty sure Vegeta even made similar claims while fighting the Z Senshi on Earth, despite being well aware of Freeza, Zarbon, Dodoria, the Ginyu, etc. All that aside, on Wikipedia we can only put verifiable information. In the anime series, Vegeta says that the ki with Freeza is bigger than Freeza's own. In the manga it is not stated either way which is stronger. Anything beyond those two facts is original research. Onikage725 20:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Granted, but most of the time the bad guy is the strongest until a spare of the moment transformation e.g. Goku first goes super saiyan against Frieza, and Gohan goes super saiyan two against cell. However you are right, this is just fan theory and original research, and this argument could go on forever. Also like you said, the anime and manga do not always meet eye to eye due to translation errors and such.  **BM**  22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by BM-1988 (talk • contribs)


 * This one isn't so much a translation error as it is brief filler. Basically in the manga we cut from everyone sensing the two ki's to everyone beginning to arrive at the landing site. In the anime, we briefly observe Vegeta and Yamcha flying to the site, and hear their thoughts. Yamcha is disturbed by Vegeta's improvement, while Vegeta is mad that Goku didn't finish the job with Freeza. And then he wonders about ki signature number 2, which he says is larger. Onikage725 01:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It also makes me wonder if in the manga they mean power levels. Having similar Ki might not mean strengh, but feeling. E.g. the feeling of Ki difference between good and evil energies. Frieza and King Cold were both evil, and father and son, there Ki understandably may have felt similar.  **BM**  20:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BM-1988 (talk • contribs)

The sad thing is, unless Toriyama comes along and makes offical statements about this and other issues, fan-theory and logic are all we'll ever have to go on. Unless that happens, such things as Cold vs. Frieza, the name of their race, etc. we will never really know.24.118.227.213 04:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Mecha Frieza was not at 100%. King Cold was stronger than his son's suppressed form. If Frieza powered up...

I have Mecha Frieza 2.5 % (as he was in the battle) at 4.5 million, 100% at 180 million. I have King Cold (in his second form) at 5 million. That make sense? User:Mr. Blonde 139 10:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

First, Mecha Frieza is STRONGER than he was on namek, as his cybernetic enhancements increased his power, this HAS been placed in canon. Second, no power levels of anyone has been given a true number value after Ginyu used his scouter on Goku, in fact the last use of a scouter was on trunks in his base form and it was surpressed; scouters are not used by the Z-fighters or anyone else since then because most can sense power levels.24.118.227.213 (talk) 11:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't believe he was suppressed against Trunks, when Trunks was stated to be as strong as Goku on Namek? User:Mr. Blonde 139 10:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Come on, King Cold's weaker than both Freeza's final form and his cyborg final form. With all those cybernetic enhancements, Freeza would be stronger than his final form, but weaker than his 100% power final form. Cooler, for that matter, states that he is stronger than Freeza in the movie (could be bluffing), but that is irrelevant and shouldn't be argued about because Cooler was just getting ahead of himself. Cooler was basically equal to Freeza. Son Gohan (talk) 12:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Kuriza
Ive watched Dbz for a long time and have never heard of Kuriza can someone tell me what epesode or a rough estimate to when he came along in the animae or the manga, much appreciated, Prince Of All Saiyans 18:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Akira Toriyama went on to make something called Neko Majin, a sort of selection of one shot manga installments. One edition was called Neko Majin Z, a sort of parody of the dragonball universe. This is where Kuriza makes his appearance. If you search Kuriza or Neko Majin, it will give you more detail, but thats basically it. Personally I am not familiar with the series though, so please forgive any mistakes.  **BM**  19:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BM-1988 (talk • contribs)

Cool dude I appreciate it.

Prince Of All Saiyans 13:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)