Talk:Fritz Duquesne/Archive 1

Untitled
"In 1916, Duquesne was awarded the Iron Cross for the sabotage and sinking of the HMS Hampshire, killing Field Marshal Kitchener and most of the crew. According to German records, Duquesne assumed the identity of Russian Duke Boris Zakrevsky and joined Kitchener in Scotland. On route to Russia, Duquesne signaled a German U-Boat to alert them that Kitchener’s ship was approaching. He then escaped on a raft just before the HMS Hampshire was destroyed.[1]"

(attack removed Yoenit (talk) 13:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC))

Please respond because I don't know were to start (hence the scattershot above) and can't help myself from becoming complacent to the idea that any well-consructed, coherent argument between us would result in a resounding defeat for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.69.179 (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe this whole article is a hoax, probably perpertrated by Duquesne's self promotion. Some of the dates do not tie up and most of the statements seem to be based on fantasy. How could Duquesne have particpated in the Russo-Japanese War afer 1910 when hostilities were over in 1905? Why is it stated he escaped from Bermuda when it is not explained what he was doing there or wy he would need to escape. and from what? Why should we accept that he had anything to do with the loss of the Hampshire, when Germany had such an advanced submarine warfare practice anyhow and had sunk British ships within Scapa Flow, where Hampshire sailed from? The best explanantion was that he was a thief and confidence trickster and that the Germans paid him. As a fantasist he was incompetent and so fell into a 'sting' organised by the FBI easily. This article should be rewritten to reflect a neutral interpretation or removed completely. 79.75.31.166 (talk) 09:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC) Tony S.

I agree completely -  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.20.40 (talk) 16:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the article claims that Dusquesne reported on the Russo-Japanese War, not participated in it. Furthermore, it never claims that it was so in 1910, just that he became TDR's shooting instructor in 1910. Furthermore, he allegdly escaped from Bermuda because he was being interned there. If the Germans really gave Dusquesne a medal for sinking he must have had a hand in it not?85.148.36.113 (talk) 22:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

In the New York Times archives there are a number of articles related to Duquesne that corroborate many parts of this article, as well as some corrections. The original comment here is racist crap and shameful. 41.177.13.125 (talk) 20:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Duquesne
Therer is not the slightest evidence, other than the obscure book cited, to indicate that Duquesne had anything to do with the death of Lord Kitichener.

Stanley Sandler, Ph.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.238.149.183 (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I havew wondered why no Feature movie has been made of Dusquesne?
Great article! Have always wondered why no feature movie made in US of him,Also of another Tribistch Lincoln also a spy adeventure! I assume Dusquesne name French? Couldnt tell from articleMOIADREMOI (talk) 04:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Take to the website https://reprobate.co.za/fritz-duquesne-the-spy-who-never-came-in-from-the-cold/, it might help y'all

Jingoistic Racist Drivel
The moronic drivel of the first nameless and spineless commentator is some of the worst I've come across on Wikipedia. This guy/girl is a concentration camp apologist (!) with absolutely no grasp of reality and an equally limited understanding of history.

Who knows how much of what has been written on "Duquesne" is fact and how much is fiction or fantasy? The man’s entire life was an enigma, but to then denounce an entire People for supposedly authoring an article based on a book by an American writer is truly preposterous. Especially as most Afrikaners have never even heard of this "Duquesne"!

I suppose Einstein had it right, stupidity really has no limits!

Jaco Strauss A proud Afrikaner

Jacostrauss (talk) 18:15, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The Duquesne name perhaps a Nom de Guerre?
I suspect the DUQEUSNE name to have been a fabrication, like a lot of things in his life. I have done a lot of research on the original French Huguenot families in South Africa, as well as the Old Cape Dutch families and could find no trace whatsoever of a DUQEUSNE / DU QEUSNE family living anywhere in South Africa at the time.

The name Frederick JOUBERT is pretty common though and is of course also of French Huguenot descent. It is however not likely that he had been closely related to General Piet JOUBERT - even if he had been born a JOUBERT - as General JOUBERT’s family tree is well documented.

I suspect this man “DUQUESNE” was born a Boer and really fought in the Anglo Boer War against Britain. He could also very well have been born in the Old Cape Colony and were it the case, would have made his involvement in the War on the side of the ZAR (Transvaal) a capital offense in the eyes of the British. This possibility alone might be enough reason to explain the use of a Nom de Guerre.

There exists documentary evidence that he served time as a Boer Prisoner of War in Bermuda and of course also that he eventually led a Spy network in the US against the Allies.

Many of the claims he had made during his lifetime is most probably total flights of fancy or deliberate disinformation. To me he comes across as Don Quixote meets Baron Münchhausen meets Casanova. Fact remains, he most definitely lived a fascinating and extraordinary life. I would love to know his real identity in order to have a better understanding of this enigmatic man.

Jaco Strauss

Jacostrauss (talk) 19:06, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Amazing Claims Need to be Supported by Reliable Sources
This article is heavily reliant on the 1932 book by Wood, which is drawn from Duquesne's own claims. The fact that the book is actually called The Man Who Killed Kitchener makes clear it is not a factual book and can be discounted as a reliable source. The article needs to make clear what information comes from reliable third party sources, and what is based on Duquesne's own claims. In particular, the claim that he sank 22 British ships, that he was a WWI German spy, and that he was awarded the Iron Cross all need to be reliably sourced. The fact that Duquesne himself claimed these things does not make them true. His story about sinking Kitchener's ship is clearly a fantasy. Since he lied about that, all his other claims have to be treated with extreme caution. If he really did sink 22 ships, for example, this would probably make him history's greatest saboteur, and there would be innumerable modern histories of WWI, espionage and the war at sea that would support this claim. Jay-W (talk) 13:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Your assertion that 1932 biography by Woods is entirely unreliable and also the only source of information for this article is incorrect. Newspaper accounts, FBI files, and biographies written by Tunney, Burnham and Roonie cover this man's life.  Tunney's 1919 book, Throttled! The detection of the German and anarchist bomb plotters, has some 30 pages on Duquense and is available from online at archive.org: http://archive.org/details/cu31924027862683. If you have authoritative references to support your claims, those should be cited and used to improve the article. Ctatkinson (talk) 13:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I will be correcting some of the unsupported and unreferenced changes made to the article.Ctatkinson (talk) 12:58, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It wasn't the changes that were unreferenced it was your reversions. You keep adding these amazing claims about Duquesne that are not backed up by reliable sources. If this article is going to claim that Duquesne achieved the astounding feat of sinking 22 british ships it needs a lot better source than one book from 1944. What does that book even say? Have you actually read it? I ask because I read the book "Throttled" that you referred to, and it in no way supports Duquesne's claims. The author actually calls Duquesne "a picturesque charlatan", which sounds about right. Please find good, reliable sources if you want these claims to be included. I will start by removing some of the more obviously false and outrageous claims, but a lot of this stuff is Boy's Own nonsense I'm afraid - “He was considered a very attractive man”, “He charmed the daughter of one of the guards”. Oh please, this is an encyclopedia not a penny dreadful spy novel. Jay-W (talk) 11:18, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


 * This talk page can and should be an area for discussions on how to improve the article and as a guiding principle we need to assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. Several changes you made contradicted the cited sources, so you will need to validate several changes you made by finding cites that support your assertions. There are many reliable sources reference in this article and you can look at those provide others on your own. Burnham and Quigley both worked in intelligence and both men met Duquesne; the former having tracked Duquesne for much of his life. American Hippopotamus article by Mooallem was published just a few months ago and was well researched. The FBI itself also provides excellent background. Ctatkinson (talk) 22:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I didn't make a personal attack on you, and as far as I'm aware all the changes I made were supported by references. The article had the infobox claiming that Duquesne won the Iron Cross, but there was no source given for this. Burnham was being used as a source for the claim that Duquesne had sunk 22 British ships, but I can't see how he could have known this, as it's unrelated to his dealings with him - did he read it in Clement Wood's book? I couldn't see much background on the FBI site you referred to, except that they seem to regard the ship bombing as a case of insurance fraud rather than espionage, and the section probably needs to be re-written to reflect that. And the Mooallem article might be all that you say it is, but I hadn't disputed the hippo story. Jay-W (talk) 11:39, 15 June 2014 (UTC)


 * For anything that needs citing, such as the Iron Cross, I'll look through the literature. You still need to add references that validate the recent changes you made since they contradict the cited sources. You have also removed cites I added, such as West, without an explanation, and those will need to be re-added to the article. Quigley, a spy for the US, knew Duquesne personally and states that Duquesne sabotaged and sank many British ships, although I have not yet seen a specific number from him. As for Burnham, he was a spy for Britain who tracked Duquesne starting in 1900 in the Second Boer War and he provides the cited number. Burnham also makes it clear he despised Duquesne, as did Tunney, whereas Wood was Duquesne's friend and admired him. I have found no association at all between Wood and Burnham or Tunney; however, Tunney contacted Burnham for help with his investigation.  As for the insurance fraud conviction, it was simply a stronger and easier way for the feds to convict Duquesne rather than a murder charge, similar to how Al Capone was convicted by the feds for tax evasion rather than murder. But even after the conviction by the US, Britain still wanted Duquesne extradited so they could try get him for "murder on the high seas"; however, Duquesne was hospitalized for paralysis and escaped custody before his extradition. Earlier I added newspaper cites that support this.  As for the Mooallem article, it covers much more on Duquesne than just the hippo story, but similar to Ronnie it is contemporary and not based on his personal knowledge.  Ctatkinson (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2014 (UTC)


 * You still haven't told me what changes I made that contradicted the sources. I removed the claim that Duquesne engaged in espionage in the US in WWI because none of the more recent writings mention this, and a childrens' book is not appropriate for references. As to the ship sinking business, it's not clear how Burnham knew about this since it's outside his own knowledge of Duquesne, unless his source was Duquesne's own claims. It's a big enough claim that it really needs a more authoritative source, like a modern history. And it's just as likely that Duquesne really was carrying out insurance fraud, but persuaded the Germans to pay him as a spy on the basis he was sabotaging British ships. He would not have been the first or the last chancer who fooled the Germans like this. German spies in both world wars were notable mainly for their incompetence and poor quality. Jay-W (talk) 15:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

You changed the meaning of several sentences and did not update the references. Unfortunately, several of those changes contradict the cited sources. You mention that a "children's book is not appropriate for references." Other than yourself, I've never once heard Burnham's writings thought of in this way. Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. I will revert those changes you made back to the referenced sources, and you can make further edits after you find alternative cites. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:16, 28 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes of course I changed the meaning of the sentences, that was the whole point. I am improving the article and making it more factual. I have reinstated my edits because you don't seem to have any specific objections and it is very clear that you are just reverting any changes I make. You also keep adding false information to the article and even to the infobox. It is not "disputed" that Duquesne was awarded the Iron Cross, or that he killed Kitchener. These claims come from Clement Wood's book and they are not believed by historians or by anybody else. I'll repeat this because you don't seem to have quite understood it - the Clement Wood book does not qualify as a reliable source. And the childrens book I was referring to was, of course, the West book, since you asked me why I removed it. It's called He-who-sees-in-the-dark; the Boys' Story of Frederick Burnham, the American Scout. That's very obviously a childrens book.


 * If you have specific objections to any changes I have made then you can raise them here on the talk page. If you think some of those changes are not supported by the sources then please explain which ones and why. I welcome your input if your aim is to be constructive and to improve the article, but just reverting wholesale every change and improvement I make is not being helpful or constructive. Jay-W (talk) 16:02, 9 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Your edits have again violated NPOV. It is wrong to remove cites from reliable sources such as the New York Times. If you have evidence that the New York Times cites, Burnham, or others are wrong, you need to bring points here to the talk page for discussion.Ctatkinson (talk) 04:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Below are examples of NPOV from the Duquesne's WP Infobox. Espionage in WWI is supported by two references: Current History (New York Times) article, "Exploits of a Master Spy"; and, James E. West/Robert Baden-Powell's book, "He-who-sees-in-the-dark".  Both of these refs satisfy WP criteria for verifiability Verifiability and reliability WP:SOURCE.  When you have a reference that disputes the another reference, you add it with a comment on the dispute, but don't remove the verifiable and reliable references.  Wood's book, "The Man Who Killed Kitchner", and Ronnie's book, "Counterfeit Hero" both satisfy WP criteria as verifiable and reliable, although some statements Woods makes have been challenged by Ronnie.  When there is a dispute over a statement, add the reference to the dispute, but don't remove the verifiable and reliable references. Ctatkinson (talk) 11:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * World War I — Espionage in United States —  Sinking of 20 British ships in South America,  including: the Tennyson, the Salvador, and the Pembrokeshire — Sinking of the HMS Hampshire (disputed) —  Assassination of Lord Kitchener (disputed)

My comments
Per request:


 * Lede
 * I would shorten the list of what he was. Is "prisoner of war", for example, really worth including here?  And BOTH saboteur and spy? Stick to the essentials.
 * Good point. I've cut it back.Ctatkinson (talk) 02:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Similarly, the list of code names at the end of the first paragraphs seems too much detail for the lede.
 * I've made several changes and I think it works better now.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "only there he escaped to the United States" perhaps "but escaped to the United States from there"
 * Fixed.Ctatkinson (talk) 04:02, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Britain declined to pursue the wartime crimes and withdrew the charges." perhaps "Britain declined to pursue the wartime charges". You seem to be saying the same thing twice.
 * Fixed.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "and convicted in the largest espionage conviction" largest espionage trial? I seem to recall some doozies during WWI, are we sure on this? And should it be "to that point" or not?
 * In terms of number of convictions, the 33 agents of the Duquesne Spy Ring is still to this day the largest espionage case in the history of the United States, according to historian Peter Duffy in 2014. I've not found any source that disagrees with this.Ctatkinson (talk) 16:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Duquesne posed as many identities and he often reinvented his past at will," this could probably be shortened to "Duquesne often took on new identities, reinventing his past ..."
 * Fixed.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Early life
 * "although this ancestry is disputed.[19][4]" not an ancestor, perhaps "relationship"? Also ensure that footnotes are in order numerically.
 * Fixed.Ctatkinson (talk) 19:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "killed his first man, a Zulu man " strike second "man". Given Duquesne's inventiveness, are you comfortable enough with this as a fact?
 * This story is recounted in several biographies that took the time to review the facts. But your point is well taken and I've added a footnote that explains the need to review multiple sources and to cite authoritative sources whenever validation is in conflict.Ctatkinson (talk) 18:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Sand river and the young Duquesne along with six other settler families fought a long gun battle, with young Duquesne killing several." Several issues. river, as part of a proper noun, should be capped.  Duquesne is not a settler family by himself, so "other" is unsupported, and there is no need to repeat "young".
 * I've cleaned up the paragraph and it reads better.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Duquesne went to London for university." which?
 * I can't find it, so I've removed this observation.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:58, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the final paragraph needs some cleaning up. You might also want to include the year in which at least one of these events happened.
 * I've cleaned up the paragraph and I think it reads much better now.Ctatkinson (talk)
 * 2nd Boer War
 * "He joined the Boers again for the Battle of Bergendal but they had to fall back to Portuguese East Africa (now Mozambique), where they were captured by the Portuguese and sent " this happened to all the Boers or just whatever forces D. was fighting with? I would clarify.
 * Fixed. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:15, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "historian Ronnie states" full name at first use.
 * Fixed. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:15, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * ""conspiracy against the British government and on espionage"" missing word at the end?
 * That is the exact quote from Ronnie. I've added added this clarifying language in parenthesis: "... (on the charge of) espionage".Ctatkinson (talk) 17:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "one of many Boer prisoners sent to Bermuda. He was one of an estimated 360 prisoners " this perhaps can be consolidated.
 * Agreed. I've merged it with the next paragraph.Ctatkinson (talk) 18:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * " the second smallest of the then-five self-governed internment islands." This may be a detail that can be lost.
 * Fixed.Ctatkinson (talk) 18:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * " Burt's Island Commandant (spokesman and representative for the other Boers), Captain C.E.M. Pyne." This may be too much detail, perhaps Pyne can be defined as the "prisoners' leader" or similar.
 * Agreed. I've re-written the paragraph.Ctatkinson (talk) 18:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If the 25 June trip was not authorized, I would say so. That sentence needs a source.
 * I've re-written the two paragraphs and added more complete sources.Ctatkinson (talk) 18:32, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Does the "Gold mystery" really need its own subsection? Can't it be placed in chronological order? (possibly shortened to one paragraph).  Also, are those pounds in weight or in currency?
 * I've now merged this subsection and I think it works much better. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:59, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Duquesne was under orders" from whom? Were those orders still extant once the Boers surrendered?
 * I've updated the sentence for clarity.Ctatkinson (talk) 02:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It is "The Washington Post and The New York Times''.
 * You are correct. I've fixed the redirection.Ctatkinson (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Was Roosevelt president during any part of this?
 * I've added "former president" to qualify his status.Ctatkinson (talk) 02:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * WWI
 * I would make it clearer that the ships he sank were merchant vessels.
 * Excellent point. I've added clarification. Ctatkinson (talk) 13:32, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm mildly surprised you link Bolivia but not Bahia. You might want to check for consistency through the article.
 * I've made several wikilink updates. If the location is modern and adequately known to readers, I've eliminated with wikilink.
 * "he says" past tense?
 * Fix.Ctatkinson (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I would also put the Kitchener incident in chronological order. I see no need for a separate subsection, it is so short.
 * Agreed. I've eliminated the subsection and merged the text.Ctatkinson (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Second WW
 * I think you need to make clearer that through the time of Duquesne's spying, the US was not yet at war. Therefore, I'm dubious about terms like "Allied".
 * I've removed the term, and added clarifying language to the paragraph.Ctatkinson (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * In the image caption for the spy ring members, you might want to say which is Duquesne.
 * Fixed. Ctatkinson (talk) 16:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "in West Point and Tennessee". "at West Point and in Tennessee".
 * Fixed. Ctatkinson (talk) 16:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is the Stoughton incident separated? After all, you mention it I think earlier on, though not by name.
 * I've now merged the Stoughton sections into the WWI section in chronological order.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:33, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's about it. The prose needs a bit of tightening, and there are several unsourced passages.  In general it is very good, but I think it could be improved with more attention to the prose.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Switch to multicolumn, while appropriate for the...
...reference section created, and perhaps the two party, detailed edit discussion, was unhelpful when it extended to the GA and subsequent Talk sections. Hence, the markup creating the columns was removed. 71.239.87.100 (talk) 15:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

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The Nazi Spy with 1,000 Faces

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