Talk:Fruit preserves/Archive 2

Can marmalade really be made with strawberries?
This article says that marmalade can be made with strawberries, but I wonder about that. I have always taken marmalade to be made with either citrus fruit or ginger, whereas if a fruit preserve is made with strawberries, I have taken it to be referred to as "jam". ACEOREVIVED (talk) 00:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * A quick Google search show 3.6 million hits on that... The first few pages are all recipes, so I guess it can. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 07:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I managed to get 144, 000 hits when I typed in "strawberry marmalade to Google - still a lot! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 09:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that most of the hits you get when you google Strawberry Marmelade are actually references to Strawberry Jam. The few that come up as Strawberry Marmelade that I have look at are actually recipes for orange marmelade with strawberries added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.206.85 (talk) 18:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Etymology is here It comes from marmelo, meaning quince. Later applied to citrus preserves. RPSM (talk) 21:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Jam / Jelly
The way I was taught, to make jelly you put the cooked ingredients into a fine cloth bag and let it drip. The liquid which drips through will set as Jelly- the remaining contents of the bag can be used for Jam. Saxophobia (talk) 17:37, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I think this link illustrates your explanation. RPSM (talk) 11:04, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is a mention of apple jelly by a British food writer RPSM (talk) 21:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Australia
The article somewhat confusingly reads "In the United States, both jam and jelly are sometimes popularly referred to as "jelly", whereas in the United Kingdom, Canada, India and Australia, the two terms are more strictly differentiated. In Australia and South Africa, the term "jam" is more popularly used as a generic term for both jam and jelly.[14]

To further confuse the issue, the term "jelly" is also used in the UK, South Africa, Australia, India and New Zealand to refer to a gelatin dessert, known in North America as jello, derived from the brand name Jell-O."

Let's be clear on this. The term jam is rarely if ever used in Australia to mean the wobbly dessert dish (i.e. what Americans call Jello). Jam in an Australian context means the fruit preserve (i.e. something you would put on bread/toast. The first sentence which is correct seems to be contradicted by the second sentence which is wrong. Australians call the wobbly dessert thing jelly (for instance see Aeroplane jelly. If you want some evidence see:
 * http://www2.woolworthsonline.com.au/Shop/Department/25#url=/Shop/Aisle/157%3Fname%3Djams (a page of jams for sale at Australia's biggest supermarket chain)
 * http://www2.woolworthsonline.com.au/Shop/Department/25#url=/Shop/SearchProducts%3Fsearch%3DJelly (the page for jellys)

I am going to delete the reference to Australians using jam in both contexts. Tigerman2005 (talk) 04:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The article is in American English and the terminology is being explained from the American vernacular point. You are reading it from the Australian point, so it reads differently to you. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 09:39, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * You're missing the point I was making. I am referring solely to the part of the article talking about the terminology used by Australians. I was not making a comment on the use of the terms in general. Seeing as though the source for Australian terms was from a 1960 book, I'd strongly suggesting that current sources hold more weight than a 50 year old book that is more than likely out of print. Tigerman2005 (talk) 11:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * LOL such are the nations separated by a common language Tigerman2005 it is you who missed the point here. The passage you are refering to says that Australians generally call jam and jelly jam. You read this as meaning that Australians call both jam and gelatin dessert jam. You should read it as Australians call any spreadable fruit preserve jam, regardless of whether it is made from made from whole crushed fruit (jam) or just the juice (jelly in the American vernacular and others). As Jeremy points out, you have read it from an Australian point and visualised jelly to mean a gelatin dessert.  I will perhaps reword this to save future confusion Dainamo (talk) 22:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Preserves
"In North America, the plural form 'preserves' is used to describe all types of jams and jellies."

This isn't quite accurate. Jelly is clear and made with the juice; jam is made from pureed fruit; preserves contain visible pieces of fruit. "Conserves" are mixed fruit, often with the addition of raisins and nuts. No one would call grape jelly "preserves." Strawberry jelly would be a clear, bright red. Jam would be smooth; preserves would have chunks of berries. In home recipes, the methods to cook jelly, jam, or preserves are quite distinct. --Janko (talk) 13:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * How products are labelled in the US (and elsewhere) depends on labelling regualations. Some reference to this is here. RPSM (talk) 20:17, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

History of jam-making
I'm very surprised to find no reference whatever in the article to the history of making jam, marmalade, fruit preserves etc. I hope someone who knows about this will add a section on it. PhilG (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Something of the history (and biochemistry) of jam making here - Guardian article 3 October 2013 by Andy Conelly   RPSM (talk) 15:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

International use of Jam and Jelly
There seems to be some strange idea amongst the US editors that they know how the rest of the world uses the English language. There was a statement saying that Jelly was only used to mean fruit preserves in the US, and that in the UK Jelly is only a desert. I corrected this - Jelly is used in the UK for some clear preserves in the same way as in the US and from a quick google search it's the same in Australia. I used the BBC website as an reference - it's our national broadcaster they are an example of how English is used in the UK, don't just revert it saying it's not a reliable source - ask for a better citation. I know Jelly is used in the UK to talk about fruit preserves and provided a (possibly weak) reference. If you disagree try providing counter evidence saying we don't use it. In the UK we use jam and jelly to mean the same things as in the US. We also use jelly to mean a clear desert popular in the 1970s and 1980s and now rarely eaten except by children or by students when made up with Vodka. Human28 (talk) 23:38, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The passage is the result of a combined effort between US and Commonwealth contributors to present a neutral base for the article. Before rushing in and making wholesale changes, please take the time to discuss proposed changes here. This is outlined in bold revert discuss. The problem here is that there is a history of editors from the UK rewriting this article to reflect British use of the term.


 * Additionally, that passage was discussing how the term is used in the US, modifying it the way you did changes the focus away from the subject of the paragraph, which as stated was usage of the term within the US. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I've shown several sources showing Jelly is used in both contexts in the UK. Some people in the UK might just use it for the Gelatin based desert, but that does not stop others in the UK using it for both. If jelly was only a gelatine based desert then speakers of EN instead of EN:US would have no way to refer to quince, redcurrant or blackcurrant jelly. Perhaps on in isolation "jelly" might normally mean the gelatin desert to more people, but then in isolation "jam" might mean music session or traffic congestion. There've been many versions of this page stating that jelly has both meanings outside the US. What would be deemed a reliable enough source to support this, dictionaries, photographs of jelly sold in England marketed by the heir to the throne, or English 19th 20th and 21st century cookbooks? Has there been any attempt to provide references for the more restrictive point of view that fruit jelly preserves do not exist outside North America? If it's accepted that people outside NA do use the term jelly for both meanings how best should the page be edited to reflect this?


 * The Jelly section does not only discuss how Jelly is used in the US, there is a statement that implies that outside North America it's only used for gelatin based deserts.


 * Also what's the point of the "In the US" part of the Jam section saying "In the US, the term "jam" refers to..."? Why not edit it to say "In Texas, the term "jam" ..." it would still be true. Is someone suggesting Jam refers to something else outside the US? Human28 (talk) 09:09, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The section refers to how the US uses the term. If you wish to update or expand on this, add your contribution to the section. Also, please respond below another persons post, do not break it up by responding within their post. And finally, sign your post with four tildes ( ~ ) --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:54, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems strange to have a specific section on how the US uses the term Jam without any evidence in the page that there are regional variations. How would you phrase the Jam section? "In the US, and the UK, the term 'jam' refers to..."? Or "In the English speaking world, the term 'jam' ..."Human28 (talk) 23:44, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Varenye in ALL of Eastern Europe?
Are you sure fruit preserves are called "varenye" in all of Eastern Europe? A lot of different languages are spoken in Eastern Europe, including Hungarian. 193.86.153.87 (talk) 09:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

References and Links
purejam.com is a British site with some basic definitions about jam and preserves