Talk:Fuckin' Perfect

Video
The video section is now almost complete and perfect, in terms of information and language. We still need a reception section so please help. Billboard already have a review for the video so help me collect more reviews to start the section.109.110.96.14 (talk) 06:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I know this is off-topic, but after seeing your edits, I wonder if IPs actually are human. Anyway, you are completely right! I'll work on it tomorrow (It's about midnight where I am now.) As soon as I come back on I will begin collecting reviews for the section. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  06:19, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Twelfth NOT Eleventh
List of Top 10's:
 * 1) There You Go #7
 * 2) Most Girls #4
 * 3) Lady Marmalade #1
 * 4) Get the Party Started #4
 * 5) Don't Let Me Get Me #8
 * 6) Just Like a Pill #8
 * 7) Who Knew #9
 * 8) U + Ur Hand #9
 * 9) So What #1
 * 10) We Are the World 25 for Haiti #2
 * 11) Raise Your Glass #1
 * 12) Fuckin' Perfect #2

When "Raise Your Glass" reached #10 in the USA, Billboard issued a review where they said that Pink has ELEVEN Top 10's, becoming the third female artist with most top 10's. If they were TEN, then she would have tied with other artists, but they were NOT.

SO, this makes "Fuckin' Perfect" the TWELFTH Top 10 hit, not the Eleventh. STOP CHANGING IT PLEASE. Ahmedfarhat (talk) 18:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Rubbish. We Are the World doesn't count, as none of the artists who have contributed with vocals are credited on the chart. The position belongs to Artists for Haiti. -- 12345abcxyz20082009 ( talk ) 19:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the contribution. You can discuss it but please don't change it as long as you don't have a proof. My proof is the review by Billboard and it's so famous and you can look it up on Billboard.com. It made a big fuss when it was announced and it made Pink the third female artists with most Top 10's since 2000. PS, if you're hating then that's something totally different, then we're going to have to lock the page to avoid personal opinions.Ahmedfarhat (talk) 10:52, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hating? What the hell? And you have yet to provide that BB link you use as your source. In fact, I'm going to give you one. You are the one who should stop changing it. -- 12345abcxyz20082009 ( talk ) 11:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Let's get a third side because I am TOTALLY unconvinced and I am a Billboard follower since 2000 and I believe what they say as they are the ones who provide the charts. And dude! What's with the attitude I am NOT your enemy.Ahmedfarhat (talk) 11:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you're reading me wrong, as I'm not hating nor do I have any such attitude. Sorry about it.
 * And what are you unconvinced about? Charity singles like We Are the World are always credited to the charity group and not to the individual artists who provide vocals. -- 12345abcxyz20082009 ( talk ) 15:04, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

According to the article for Usher (who also appeared on "We Are the World 25"), he has 16 Billboard Hot 100 top 10 hits meaning it does not include "We Are the World 25".--z33k (talk) 17:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Guys guys I am terribly sorry. I misremembered what the article said. I checked it out and provided two instead of one link to the fact which is Eleven not Twelve. I am sorry again and no worries I am glad to learn from here and glad that we are working together and I think the article is perfect now. All the sections are full, with good Grammar and Spelling, plus references.Ahmedfarhat (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

SETTLED, eleven — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedfarhat (talk • contribs) 20:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

title disconnect?
There seems to be a title disconnect. The page title says Fuckin' but the image shown says F**kin'. Why is there a difference? Banaticus (talk) 21:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you asked this question! There are several reasons. For one, Wikipedia is not censored. There may be alternate titles for the song (I know one radio edit is entitled "Perfect"), but most reliable sources refer to the song as "F**kin' Perfect". Asterisks, however, are considered decorative punctuation symbols, which should not be used per the Manual of Style, similar to how we have Kesha instead of Ke$ha or 'N Sync instead of *NSYNC. Does that make sense? Yves (talk) 21:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Re Article titles, since "the trademarked spelling is demonstrably the most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark", I think the title should be changed to "F**kin' Perfect". * is a character easily found on Standard English keyboards; it's not a symbol like "♥" is.  This is something of a tangent, but give that Article titles says to avoid apostrophes but doesn't mention stars at all, shouldn't the band name be at *NSync instead of 'NSync, like *NSYNC (album)? Banaticus (talk) 11:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Banaticus. It seems the official title is "F**kin' Perfect". It is listed as so for the official video on VEVO and the official PinkVEVO channel on YouTube, and on the back of Greatest Hits... So Far!!! it is listed as "F**kin' Perfect". Seems pretty clear that's the official title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rouse52794 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)


 * "F**kin' Perfect" is the official title, the correct spelling of the songtitle, there should be no doubt about it, as it's printed like that on all Pink releases Kai81 (talk) 10:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Move proposal 2012

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Based on the above discussion, I propose to move this page to F**kin' Perfect, being the name used on the cover and as used in the press (example). Please indicate your reasons for support or oppose below. --Fæ (talk) 10:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Moved. Banaticus (talk) 04:40, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Requested move 1

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Fuckin& → Fuckin' Perfect – Please put your reason for moving here. 68.44.51.49 (talk) 21:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC) There's only one thing with this name. 68.44.51.49 (talk) 21:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Unnecessary disambiguation, pure and simple.  --B2C 21:55, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per above. LCS check (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. There's a weak consensus against the move here based on a headcount, and the oppose voters have the stronger policy-based argument. MOS:TM and WP:NOTCENSORED apply, and carry the day against appeals to official names. --BDD (talk) 18:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Fuckin& → F**kin' Perfect – It seems above that there was a discussion at one point about why the page title was "Fuckin' Perfect" instead of "F**kin' Perfect". As far as I can tell, the page was supposedly moved as a result. However, if it was moved, then it seems to have been moved back without explanation. As per the above discussion, I feel it should be moved (back) to "F**kin' Perfect", as that IS the name of the song. 86.31.34.21 (talk) 20:22, 28 April 2013 (UTC) Oppose: Per BMI, the officially registered name of the song is "Fuckin Perfect".&mdash;Kww(talk) 03:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Wikipedia is not censored. See Fuck You (Cee Lo Green song), for example. It is obvious what the word is, and it is not F**ckin. Apteva (talk) 21:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, the name of the album is F**ckin' Perfect. No censorship involved here. Seems someone is just looking for an excuse to use and vent foul language here at Wikipedia. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "F**kin' Perfect" is the title simply stylized. Same thing as Fuck You (Cee Lo Green song). And, if you check ASCAP or BMI, where the song is registered (legally), it's as "Fuckin' Perfect". — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 23:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Three points, I agree with Status that it's styling that we can and should ignore. After all, it isn't and cannot be trademarked. The title isn't so different from vanity capitalisations where you replace a letter with a symbol. Also, not having heard the song, I can't imagine her pronouncing it "f**ckin'", for I would defy anyone pronouncing "**". Also, Wikipedia isn't censored. --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 06:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose, the original song is titled "Fuckin' Perfect", "F**ckin' Perfect" is censorship that was unleashed so that blogs and media could write about the song before watershed. &mdash;  Lil_ ℧ niquℇ № 1  [talk]  10:28, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, it seems simple to me, the actual album cover says *F**ckin' Perfect so why would you give it another name? Melbourne3163 (talk) 10:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose MOS:TM Se7en do not substitute letters -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 01:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree. The Album is named F**kin Perfect. Censorship was never involved from the article; but rather the composer gave it the name. You cannot simply claim the Album to be named Fucking Perfect, because technically speaking the name F**kin Perfect can have tons of names to choose from like Forkin Perfect, FFFkin Perfect, Fumkin Perfect, etc. So why even bother changing the name of the given album, F**kin Perfect when we don't even know what that name can even mean? Please do not invent names for Wikipedia uses. --(B)～（ー．ー）～(Z) (talk) 03:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. When I searched on the BMI website, I found out that The Legal title is F ing Perfect whereas Fuckin Perfect and others were the alternate titles. Yet again, searches from iTunes and Amazon.com state F**kin Perfect. Is there a more notable site that you can dig out to convince me other than BMI, iTunes or Amazon.com? --(B)～（ー．ー）～(Z) (talk) 14:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is interesting: the search by work number for 12116551 does list "F ing Perfect" as the legal title, and "Fuckin Perfect" as an alternate. "F**kin' Perfect" isn't even listed as an alternate title.&mdash;Kww(talk) 15:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the world of confusion, Wikipedians. Still since there's also F ing Perfect as another official name in addition to Fuckin Perfect and F**kin Perfect, would it be better to try researching more on the album? Well this isn't my Wikiproject so please relax. Oh and Happy Golden Week to those celebrating. --(B)～（ー．ー）～(Z) (talk) 18:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell from what I've searched so far, there's not a single song or artist on BMI that uses symbols. *NSYNC are labelled as N Sync, will.i.am is labelled as Will I Am, will.i.am's song "It's a New Day" is labelled as "It s a New Day", the list goes on. BMI seems flawed to use as a source, in that respect. Regarding censorship, how is it censorship if Wikipedia is not changing anything? Through the same logic I'm arguing for this page's move, Cee Lo Green's song actually is called "F**k You", so I'm calling that out on WP:OTHERSTUFF. And if we're going to be technical, can anyone link me to a source that states that the stars in the title are censoring the letters "uc"? Because if not, is it not original research to assume that's the case? Not all songs are named after their lyrics, and as ridiculous as it might be to propose, there's nothing stopped P!nk from having named this song "Forkin' Perfect" and censoring it for her own laughs. (Actually typed this before I saw --(B)～（ー．ー）～(Z)'s comment, but thought I'd leave it in as we've both brought up the same point). One thing I will admit is that I made a typo in the move proposition which I thought I'd fixed: my actual proposition, if this can be changed in any way, is to move this page to "F**kin' Perfect", NOT "F**ckin' Perfect".86.31.34.21 (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Fuckin Perfect" is listed as an alternate title and "Forkin Perfect" is not, so I don't think that line of logic holds up very well.&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, BMI seems pretty inaccurate due to the omission of symbols and I would question its use as a source. If you're going to use BMI as the source, then you accept "F ing Perfect" is the true title and not "Fuckin' Perfect". If you don't, then the logic holds up, as there is no source that states the '**' is in place of 'uc'. iTunes, Amazon, YouTube and the physical releases all list the song as "F**kin' Perfect" in every place it appears (as a standalone single, as a track on "Greatest Hits... So Far!!!", as a track on "Now That's What I Call Music! 78", etc...). It is not a stylisation - it is the name of the song!86.31.34.21 (talk) 21:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey guys, people with famous names, like 'John Wayne', have "legal" names that are different -- however, we use 'John Wayne' if we're going to write about him, since this is the name used in the credits or on any CD that features his movies, so let's not invent excuses to promote foul language. "F**ckin' Perfect"is the name used on the album cover, and that's the spelling we see in the image on this page. Btw... Wikipedia is blocked in Calif. public schools (and no doubt elsewhere) because of this precious 'not censored' policy, so are we acting in the greater interest, or are we more interested in promoting smut, foul language and everything else that hides behind the 'not censored' policy? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "F**ckin' Perfect" is simply the title of the song stylized. How is it pronounced in the song? Does she sing "F star star ckin' perfect"? No, she says "fuckin' perfect". We use Kesha and not Ke$ha for the same reason. — Statυs  ( talk,  contribs ) 21:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Song titles don't need to correspond to lyrics. The Lazy Song is one example. Even though it's logical to assume "F**kin' Perfect" is hinting at "Fuckin' Perfect" in the lyrics, there's no source to support that assumption and so it's Original Research. The proper title for the clean version is "F**kin' Perfect (Perfect)", but she doesn't even say "fuckin'" in that version. I just don't understand why this whole "stylisation" thing is put into place, because "stylisation" in itself is original research. Either way, regardless of that fact, there is no official source that lists the song as "Fuckin' Perfect", so there is no argument that that is the title.
 * I take it you haven't bothered to follow any of the links to BMI.&mdash;Kww(talk) 22:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I take it you like being selective in what information you pick from sources. BMI lists it as "F ing Perfect" (possibly supposed to be "F***ing Perfect" with omitted asterisks as BMI doesn't use symbols, but I accept we can't assume that). It lists "Fuckin Perfect" (note: without the apostrophe) as an alternate title, but not the legal title. Nowhere does it say "Fuckin' Perfet" (note: WITH the apostrophe) is a title, which is where my whole issue with people attempting to use BMI as a source comes from. Regardless, to me, BMI just seems a huge mess, and I don't see how it can outweigh at least the four other sources I've brought up (iTunes, Amazon, YouTube, physical release).86.31.34.21 (talk) 18:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that it isn't a reliable source for typography. I think it blows your "forkin" argument out of the water, though.&mdash;Kww(talk) 18:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. The legal title of this song is F ING PERFECT, with the following alternative titles. Any guess which of all of these is most commonly used? Apteva (talk) 01:50, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Let's get this over with. The legal title is as spelled out immediately above, contrary to other claims, and the name on the ALBUM COVER itself is F**kin' Perfect. A level of Consensus must be observed and based in fact and verifiability and not violate basic Wikipedia policy. i.e. We can't use a picture of Santa Clause for Napoleon, no matter how many editors say it's okay. For some reason using the title the way it is presented on the album itself is unsatisfactory because apparently some others simply want as much mud slopped onto Wikipedia pages as possible for various sordid reasons, be they anti-social and/or agenda driven. Wikipedia has a history of stealth vandalism, and gaming the system i.e.following (selected) rules to further tear down the reputation of Wikipedia, among other reasons, but relax, you are free to deny this sort of thing ever happens. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * F ING PERFECT (Legal Title)
 * BMI Work #12116551
 * Alternate Titles:
 * FUCKING PERFECT
 * F IN PERFECT
 * FUCKIN PERFECT
 * F CKIN PERFECT
 * PERFECT
 * Oppose. It's really quite simple, the purpose of the article namespace is Wikipedia indexing and searching, not to reflect stylization and affectation. - the article should contain the "correct" stylisation (or both if relevant). FWIW, this is the way BMI/PROs treat song titles - there is no "official" title at BMI, just indexing. --Richhoncho (talk) 07:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak support. Normally I'd cite "Wikipedia is not censored", but it appears to actually be spelled "F**kin' Perfect" on the actual cover. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Stylization note
Okay, I'm aware the page move was denied. Fair enough. However, I tried to add '(stylized as "F**kin' Perfect")' into the article and someone edited it back stating "stylizations do not belong". So rather than just blindly change it again and possibly start an edit war, I double-checked MOS:TM and it actually says: "In the article about a trademark, it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears, but thereafter, an alternative that follows the standard rules of punctuation should be used". So, technically, the article can begin with '"F**kin' Perfect" is a song...", but I know that's likely to be contested, so all I'm asking is that if I edit the stylization note in, it is not removed.

Also, before anyone tries to bring it up, I do not believe WP:CENSOR applies here. Wikipedia is not censoring anything - it is giving a fact that the song is stylized with "**" in place of "uc". The "proper" title is still given as the title of the article and as the first two words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FeFiFo (talk • contribs) 19:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A song is not a trademark. It is a copyrighted work but as BMI Repertoire proved, there are multiple legal names for the same piece of work. Thus it does not really matter. &mdash;  Lil_ ℧ niquℇ № 1  [talk]  19:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

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