Talk:Fukagawa Geisha

Merge proposal
Merge with Fiona Graham. This article reads like a big advertisment for the geisha house, and the subject is not independently notable outside of Graham. The section "Geisha mother" is basically a WP:FORK from Graham's article anyways, and any new information could be put in a concise section at that article. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 01:49, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging,, ,. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 01:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about the subject matter per se, but it would seem that the "house" would need to meet WP:NORG, WP:NBUILDING or WP:GNG for a stand-alone article to be written about it. If that can be shown or at least WP:NEXIST can be argued, then perhaps this can be kept. The Fukagawa Geisha section does, however, seem a bit too much; obviously, the owner/operator the house should be mentioned in the article, but the details in that section seem more suited for Fiona Graham than that section. On a side note, I'm not sure about the redirect Sayuki since "Sayuki" is not an uncommon name among Japanese women (including some fictional characters); so, perhaps that redirect should be changed to something like Mika or some of the other pages listed in Category:Japanese feminine given names, and a new redirect (Sayuki (geisha)?) if it's deemed necessary. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:25, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article resembles an ad a little too much but I'm not well-versed in notability criteria to comment the merge proposal. Le Loy 04:47, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with - a new redirect entitled Sayuki (geisha) is necessary. I also think the article should be merged with Fiona Graham, and I agree that it does read like an ad. I'll explain:
 * For roughly a decade, as can be seen on the Talk page of the Fiona Graham article and its archives, there has been a lot of COI editing, edit-warring, and General Nonsense in regards to Graham and her work as a geisha. Now, over time, we've managed to get to a point where I think it's been made clear that Graham can, if she wishes to, suggest edits to the article on her, if the correct steps have been followed, and these have been outlined pretty clearly. And I'm pretty happy to say that we've graduated from just a barrage of sockpuppet edits to potentially-connected editors seemingly seeking out assistance at the Teahouse and on Talk pages, which didn't happen before, and that makes everyone's job a little easier.
 * However - and this is a big sticking point - Graham's okiya isn't notable enough for its own page. Graham herself is extremely well-covered in a number of notable sources, and her okiya is as well, but notably, her okiya - its trainees, its activities, things it has been notable for as an institution in its own right - is never the main subject of these pieces; Graham herself is.
 * Numerous well-known or obscure okiya exist up and down the country of Japan; probably some of the most famous ones are the ones attached to the Ichiriki teahouse in Kyoto, the most famous establishment in the karyūkai. If individual okiya alone were notable enough for their own articles, we could have one on the geisha house of Satsuki, who held the title of most popular geisha in Gion for about seven years; you could have one on the Umeno okiya, who are somewhat infamously known for their maiko quitting just before they graduate; you could cover revived okiya in places like Nara, and so on and so on.
 * Graham's okiya has received more English-language, encyclopedic, citable coverage than all of these, but even if Graham's okiya has more coverage than these, it's still not coverage solidly independent enough of Graham herself to warrant a separate article. It seems to me that this article is designed to centre around Graham in her capacity as a geisha, where there is suitable space and place for that in her existing article. It just isn't notable enough to stand on its own two legs, and - as we can see in the existing redirect for Sayuki - we already had the conversation merging the page covering Graham's geisha activities and Graham as a person extremely early on in the existing article's history. There's a reason the two were merged, and a reason they've stayed merged.
 * I will say that there seems to be a few more things in this article that do need to be added into Graham's, iirc. However, it's not enough independent content to warrant separation entirely. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 15:21, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Support merge. Per WP:DUCK it's likely that the article itself was written by Graham as a WP:COATRACK to start removing those pesky details from her own article about her court case, how she was disaffiliated, etc. Most of the content in the Fukugawa article is fluff that belongs more on Graham's own homepage; part of the remainder is duplicated from Geisha and Fiona Graham; and the rest is Graham's axegrinding about how she was hard done by in the courts, how she's really truly a geisha, etc. I said "support merge" but this practically means "delete the Fukugawa article because it contains nothing in the way of reliable facts that other articles don't already have". Also, I'm getting mighty tired of cleaning up after Graham and her socks' vandalism of the Japanese version of the page. 2404:440C:1715:8500:4851:F90A:2A62:AE10 (talk) 03:24, 28 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Partial Support I'd support a merger of the Geisha Mother information into the Fiona Graham article, because I wasn't able to edit that person's article myself. My version contains a lot more useful information than the Fiona Graham page.
 * I don't support a merger of the rest of the article. The house was established by various geisha including Graham, and has gained notoriety among several media outlets (NHK, CNN, WSJ...) so deserves to be on Wikipedia. It is basically a non-profit venture so has little to do with financial gain.
 * Also, fans of artists exist on both sides of the spectrum, and these are the people who help build wikipedia. I have no conflict to disclosure beyond this. Geicraftor (talk) 03:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Above comment is from User:Geicraftor who is busy making the same tired old edits to the Japanese version of her page using a number of SPAs. I've brought it to their admins' attention, but no action has been taken yet. 124.197.54.156 (talk) 07:36, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * @IPs 2404:440C:1715:8500:4851:F90A:2A62:AE10 and 124.197.54.156: Please refrain from casting WP:ASPERSIONS on any editor participating in this discussion, unless you're prepared to provide evidence in support of the claims you're making. Continuing to make unsupported claims about another editor is eventually going to be seen as a personal attack. Go to the proper noticeboard for this type of thing (e.g. WP:ANI, WP:COIN, WP:SPI) and make your case there. It might be a good idea, however, for you to register for an account if you're going to do such a thing because it will be easier for others to know it's you they're discussing things with. If you want to continue to discuss content here on this talk page, then that's fine; however, please try to adhere to WP:AVOIDYOU and WP:APR as much as possible when you post. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:53, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you provide examples of sources that discuss this house independently of Graham? The CNN and WSJ articles do not mention the word "Fukagawa" at all. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 00:09, 2 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Support merge - forgot to add this. No reason for the articles to be separated other than this being a WP:POVFORK. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 15:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Support merge - pull out the duplicate material and purely promotional stuff and there's some here that could be added to Graham's article. Need to avoid the primary sources that seem to repeatedly show up by totally unconnected editors.  Just an odd coincidence, of course.  Ravensfire  (talk) 00:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Merge There may be useful material here, but could readily be a section under Fiona Graham, rather than a standalone article. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:20, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Support merge - but this article's information should be retained in the Fiona Graham article. The vast majority of information can be kept and added to the now-stub-like Fiona Graham article. フォロミー2020 (talk) 10:02, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Merge per Ravensfire. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:04, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

List of sources from Geicraftor
In my opinion, the geisha house article should stay, but the information about the Geisha Mother should be merged into the Fiona Graham article. I have been trying to expand that article with more recent information but cannot get past the edit block and reverting vandals there. Anyway...

A selection of major news outlets from across the world: Geicraftor (talk) 07:28, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Tokyo Weekender: https://www.tokyoweekender.com/2017/10/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-geisha/
 * 2) Manichi Shinbun - http://mainichi.jp/articles/20190703/pls/00m/020/538000c
 * 3) South German - https://www.sueddeutsche.de/reise/traditionen-in-japan-wer-will-hier-unbesiegbar-werden-1.4013500
 * 4) Der Standard (Austria) - https://apps.derstandard.at/privacywall/story/2000081875788/wie-fremdarbeiter-japanische-traditionen-retten
 * 5) Kyodo - https://ovo.kyodo.co.jp/news/gourmet/a-1323306
 * RNZ: https://www.rnz.de/ratgeber/reise_artikel,-lebenswelten-in-tokio-zurueck-in-die-zukunft-_arid,422125.html
 * 1) El Pais: https://elviajero.elpais.com/elviajero/2016/10/27/videos/1477584568_663665.html
 * NHK: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/callhome/20200720/2087011/
 * 1) Bangkok Post: https://www.bangkokpost.com/life/social-and-lifestyle/1564218/keeping-a-tradition-alive-from-the-outside-in
 * 2) Business Live (Middle East): https://www.businessliveme.com/lifestyle/arts-and-culture/al-falaj-hotel-to-host-geisha-performance-at-tokyo-taro/
 * 3) World Heritage Encyclopedia: http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Geisha
 * 4) Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2937438/Memoirs-Australian-geisha-Melbourne-woman-Fiona-Graham-transformed-Sayuki-non-Japanese-geisha-400-years.html
 * 5) UAE National: https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/the-western-woman-who-became-a-geisha-1.293284
 * 6) Chubun: https://www.chubun.com/modules/article/view.article.php/174118/c125
 * 7) Swedish Chamber of Commerce and Industry: https://www.sccj.org/news/184
 * , it would be helpful if you'd propose exactly what content you want to add to the Fiona Graham article by using the article's talk page. Also, the reversions of your edits do not come close to constituting vandalism, so please don't cast aspersions by referring to them as such. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:20, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I went through every link you gave and none contribute to notability towards this house. We need sources that have significant coverage about the house; most are still about Graham, not this house. There's a couple press releases in there that don't contribute to notability either. You are free to give edit requests to Graham's talk page if you cannot edit the page directly. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 00:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Just my quick assessment of the sources listed above.
 * The Tokyo Weekender source is a WP:INTERVIEW with Graham which makes it a WP:PRIMARY source that doesn't help establish WP:N, but may be OK to use for some things per WP:BLPSELFPUB.
 * The Mainichi source is a press release which again makes it a primary source with very little value for Wikipedia's purposes.
 * The South German source does have content about Graham, but it part of a larger article about Japanese culture and Tokyo in general. Moreover, it seems to be more of a "things to do while in Tokyo" fluff piece written for Germans interested in visiting Tokyo than a critical assessment of Graham or the Fukugawa Geisha house. While there might be some value to this as a reliable source in the right context, I wouldn't say it's strong WP:SIGCOV that helps establish notability of the house itself.
 * The DerStandard source seems to be pretty much the same as the South German source in that it's written more a piece for Austrians interested in visiting Japan than a critical piece about Graham or the house. Both this source and source 3 seem to have been written by the same person, who probably has his/her column syndicated in a number of regional papers.
 * The Ovo Kyodo source is basically an advertisement for coffee that appears to be another press release, possibly the same one as source 2.
 * The RNZ source seems to be the same as sources 3 and 4, and appear identical content wise.
 * The El Pais appears promising but you need to subscribe to see the full source so it's hard, at least for me, to assess.
 * The NHK source is actually a video about three non-Japanese entertainers and their activities during the pandemic. This might have some value for the Graham article, but I wouldn't say it establishes the notability of this house.
 * The Bangkok Post source is another article about Graham that might have value in the BLP and has content about her running her own house; however, once again, this doesn't seem to establish the houses notability on its own.
 * The Business Live source is more about an event Graham and her "geisha sisters" participated for a Tokyo Hotel that might be OK to mention in the Graham article, but doesn't really establish the notability of the house. It has a press release feel to it.
 * I can't access the World Heritage Encyclopedia source but going just by it's name it probably would be considered a WP:TERTIARY source.
 * The Daily Mail is generally considered unreliable as a source for Wikipedia's purposes per WP:DAILYMAIL.
 * The UAE National source is a piece about Graham on the occasion of a visit she made to Dubai (perhaps for some event). Perhaps this has some value in the BLP, but I don't see it establishing the notability of the house.
 * The Chubun source appears to be from a news aggregate. It's a piece about an exchange event Graham participated in with students from Waseda University. Might possibly be useful in the BLP, but seems to have no value for this article.
 * The Swedish Chamber of Commerce and Industry source is just an event listing for a Hanami party in which the Fukagawa Geisha attended as guest. Seems to have very little value either in the BLP or in this article. This is almost like a "concert listing" for a band, only it's for a party involving Graham and her geisha.
 * That's my take on these sources. I don't think any of them really establish the notability of this article, but some may be useful for updating/expanding the Graham article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:14, 3 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Afaict, the El Pais ref is just a short text presenting a YT-video by this guy  (apparently El Pais thinks his stuff is ok). I don't know the language, but it may be an ok source depending on who says what in it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:54, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * World Heritage Encyclopedia mentions Graham, nothing "we" didn't know. It may be, at least partly, a WP-mirror. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The World Heritage Encyclopedia url address is WP:BLACKLISTed which means it's pretty much not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia's purposes and that an active link to it can't be added to any Wikipedia page regardless of what it might say about Graham. — Marchjuly (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Got it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:36, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Pre-merge prep
It looks like there's a rough consensus in support of merging, so I'd like to identify the information that are missing from Graham's article that should be migrated over. I will say that the "Geisha mother" section is already covered in Graham's article; a lot of the history section belongs at Fukagawa, Tokyo. Other than that, please be specific and include reliable sources for each piece of information; it makes the editor making the merge's life easier. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 02:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * We could try to insert the image somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ at Fukagawa, Tokyo. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 08:16, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The majority of the information under "Geisha mother" isn't covered in the Fiona Graham article, so most of that text should be copied over. The rest of the article should be kept, or in the worst case sccopied to a new section in Fiona Graham under a "Fukagawa Geisha" section. Geicraftor (talk) 06:15, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

This information should be copied over.

Sayuki (lit. 'transparent happiness') is a geisha mother currently working as the head of a geisha house in the Fukagawa district of Tokyo. She also lectures at Waseda University in traditional Japanese culture. She also practices several arts, including the transverse flute an shamisen. Sayuki has acquired her permanent residency and finds historical significance in the revival of the dying geisha culture.

She holds a psychology degree from Keio University, a PhD and MBA in Social Anthropology from Oxford University, and has been working in Japanese media for several years with Reuters and NHK. She remains active as a lecturer at Waseda and as a visiting lecturer worldwide, and is still contacted by both domestic and foreign media for interviews and media coverage.

She came to Japan as an exchange student at the age of 15. She was inspired by the movie "Sayuri" to work as a geisha. Though the American cultural anthropologist Liza Dalby was the first westerner to formally dress as a geisha in the 1970s, she did not undergo formal training, and Sayuki was the first foreigner to undergo a formal training period.

She officially made her debut as a geisha in 2007, December, 18 in Asakusa. In 2015, she revived her Hanayanagi with other senior native geisha, and launched the Fukagawa geisha federation in 2020 in order to preserve the geisha tradition. She is one of the few remaining geisha in Fukagawa and lives with her young disciples. She also recently found success with an online tatami room. It is possible for tourists to observe various practices of geisha at her school, such as dancing, shamisen, tea ceremony, or flower arrangement. She also hosts on-site performances of festival music with large drums, flutes and bells.

Fiona Graham's primary qualification at university was in social anthropology, and hence she has produced several documentaries for media outlets worldwide. She has produced and directed comparative cultural documentaries and has produced numerous documentaries on NHK, National Geographic Channel (USA), Channel 4 and the BBC (UK). She also directed, hosted, and narrated a program for Japanese viewers on NHK, which is extremely unusual for a foreigner. She mainly produced documentary programs on social phenomena that pursued deep relationships.

A property owned by Fiona Graham in New Zealand, Wanaka Gym Ltd, was fined by the Queenstown Lakes District Council in a dispute about whether the accommodation section of the property housing several tenants in a dormitory should be classified under building regulations as a single housing unit or as tourist housing. The dispute was taken to court but thrown-out on a technicality due to the appeal by Graham being too late. She contends that the ruling is unfair. The New Zealand Ombudsman had ruled in favour of her.

Graham is frequently invited to present talks around the world as part of her Machizukuri Project to discuss machizukuri or town revitalization and tourism. She also does public talks throughout Japan and the world .for institutions and universities.

She also supports the charity HandsOnTokyo. In late 2007 she auctioned off a geisha event with proceeds going to the charity.

She has discussed the idea of holding a travelling roadshow in the US.

Geicraftor (talk) 06:35, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is literally the original text that was condensed because it was 1) mostly irrelevant to the geisha house and 2) already covered at Graham's article. I'd advise against copying this text and removing what's already there; this text is written in a non-NPOV fashion already, and the prose is frankly worse. I wanted you to instead pick out which pieces of information are not at Graham's article right now because I didn't want to single-handedly perform the merge without your input. Here's what I see is missing from Graham's page right now:
 * "...finds historical significance in the revival of the dying geisha culture" — non-NPOV wording
 * "...as a visiting lecturer worldwide, and is still contacted by both domestic and foreign media for interviews and media coverage" — non-NPOV wording. By who? Where? When? WSJ does not bring up more universities or organizations than already mentioned.
 * "She was inspired by the movie "Sayuri" to work as a geisha. Though the American cultural anthropologist Liza Dalby was the first westerner to formally dress as a geisha in the 1970s" — Can't read the German source, but Ctrl+F of keywords "Sayuri" and "Dalby" come up empty. You need references for these.
 * "In 2015, she revived her Hanayanagi with other senior native geisha, and launched the Fukagawa geisha federation in 2020 in order to preserve the geisha tradition" — Bare URL to a Keio website where I don't see any mention of Graham or geisha in general
 * "...and hence she has produced several documentaries for media outlets worldwide. She has produced and directed comparative cultural documentaries and has produced numerous documentaries on NHK, National Geographic Channel (USA), Channel 4 and the BBC (UK). She also directed, hosted, and narrated a program for Japanese viewers on NHK, which is extremely unusual for a foreigner. She mainly produced documentary programs on social phenomena that pursued deep relationships" — non-NPOV wording. I'll come back to the YouTube video at a later time to check if the information is in it.
 * "Graham is frequently invited to present talks around the world as part of her Machizukuri Project to discuss machizukuri or town revitalization and tourism" — Can't read Spanish, but Ctrl+F of "Machizukuri" comes up empty in the source.
 * "She also does public talks throughout Japan and the world .for institutions and universities" — Same as above.
 * "She also supports the charity HandsOnTokyo. In late 2007 she auctioned off a geisha event with proceeds going to the charity." — Primary source
 * "She has discussed the idea of holding a travelling roadshow in the US." — Not worthy of inclusion if it hasn't happened yet. Many people say to do stuff and never do it.
 * So far there is nothing in that section that I feel like convincingly should be moved. Let me know if you have any more ideas. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 08:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , Regarding #3, I do read German, and there's no mention of a documentary, or Liza Dalby. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 13:44, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge completed
I see a clear consensus to merge on this talk page. I've migrated over a WTHR reference to back up the geisha house sentence. The references for services offered are primary sources, so I don't want to go into too much detail with them. Other than that, I can't find anything else to merge, so I'll redirect the page. Further discussion should be brought up at Talk:Fiona Graham; please let me know if I missed any. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 02:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and reverted., you say that "most of the text has not been merged or copied over into other articles as per discussion". The thing is that there's no good reason to use your version of the text to "copy over"; the original is better cited and more neutral. You have to identify pieces of information that are missing from Fiona Graham and provide sources. ◢ <i style="background-color:#F7E3F7; color:#960596"> Ganbaruby! </i>  (Say hi!) 08:48, 8 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I've reverted that revert - there's a clear consensus for the Merge here. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)