Talk:Full Sail University/Archive 2

Campus
As you can see in this post COIN my employer is Full Sail University. I’d like to participate in the discussions about this article, in an effort to help the article better comply with Wikipedia article standards. I’m aware that this presents a conflict of interest, and so I've carefully read the WP:COI guidelines, and intend to follow them closely. Where I am discussing content related to the Full Sail University article, I will limit myself to proposing changes as opposed to making the changes myself. I've made this declaration on my user page as well.

So right now, the article contains information about the campus, however does not have a dedicated campus section. Following the WP:UNIGUIDE, I would like to propose that this information be organized into a “Campus” section. I’ve written up a draft of how this could look: User:Tylergarner/sandbox.

Can someone please review my proposed draft of this new section and provide feedback? --Tylergarner (talk) 21:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your candor and your proposal to handle your COI. The proposed addition looks good to me so unless someone else objects I think you should add it to the article. ElKevbo (talk) 23:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not bad, certainly neutral, okay for addition. You convert miles to kilometers but other measurements are not converted for some reason. You don't need to say "current" or repeat FL for Florida, you can just write "moved to Winter Park in 1989." Binksternet (talk) 00:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestions and comments. I have made the suggested edits to the section from Binksternet, and have applied the changes to the article as talk recommended. Please take a look at the changes that I have made and feel free to apply changes as seen fit. Next, I would like to write a draft of other sections of this article to maintain compliance with WP:UNIGUIDE. I will propose any future edits here for your feedback. --Tylergarner (talk) 17:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Academics, Student Life, and Noted People
Hello,

Following up on the prior conversation above, I have gone ahead and written drafts for the Academics, Students Life, and Noted People sections. Similar to my previous submission, can someone please review these section revisions and provide feedback, or implement them into the article. The drafts are saved here: User:Tylergarner/sandbox

--Tylergarner (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Your version of the accreditation section ignores the fact that FSU credits count for nothing at most other colleges. This fact cannot be ignored.
 * You rely far too much on FSU primary sources, for instance the GPS paragraph is fluff, the housing paragraph is fluff, and there's too much detail about how much time is required for various degree programs.
 * Who cares if there is an institution discount for software if the student doesn't see the discount? The student pays the tuition and the laptop comes with the software. No discount.
 * "Who's" should be "whose".
 * Don't replace the word "to" with an en dash in number ranges: "ranges from $30,380 to $77,500"
 * Wikipedia will not respect the wishes of organizations that want all caps in their names, which means that "Grammy" is not all caps.
 * The phrase "has welcomed" is fluff.
 * As a whole, I don't think your sandbox version is suitable. Binksternet (talk) 17:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your feedback. Glad that you provided it, as this attention to detail is exactly what I was hoping for in talking through potential content revisions.  My primary goal has been to write in line with Wikipedia’s WP:UNIGUIDE standards, and the changes that you recommend were helpful, as I now recognize that the prior version of that draft was in need of further improvement in several areas to meet these standards.
 * I’ve made significant changes to the sandbox draft, reflecting each one of the recommendations you outlined above. These changes include:
 * More focus on accreditation and transfer of credits, including addressing media.
 * Shortened GPS, housing, and time requirement content to be concise in covering these subjects.
 * Revised the Project Launchbox description to remove “discount” phrasing.
 * Corrected the grammatical errors that were present in the prior version.
 * Can you please provide feedback on the updated version of the sections? Thank you, --Tylergarner (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It's still soft-pedaling the credits problem, even after ElKevbo's changes two days ago. The critical TIME article from February 2011 ("The No-Name School That Mints Grammy Winners") is very clear that Florida State University does not accept Full Sail credits. It's not just "difficult to transfer" as is said in the Nathan Crabbe article. Your version does not tell the reader that ACCSC is not part of the same accreditation system as most four-year colleges.
 * You ought to add information about the college's AES chapter to the article: http://www.aes.org/sections/view.cfm?section=254
 * There should be a bit about financial aid through, for instance, Federal Work-Study as listed in Peterson's Two-Year Colleges.
 * In general, the tone of the whole article is far too rah-rah compared to the TIME article in which Ryan Goldbacher slams the college for pumping out graduates who are ridiculed in the real world. In my 30-year career as a live sound engineer for concerts and events I have seen this attitude expressed by industry veterans over and over, so Ryan's opinion is not unusual. The market is flooded with people who want to work in video, audio, film, television, graphic design, video game design, etc. and Full Sail graduates very often get no better opportunity than the next guy. This usually comes as a terrible shock after the student has amassed major college debts. For each graduate that Full Sail points to as a success there are many, many more who get bottom-rung drudge jobs or nothing. Binksternet (talk) 18:23, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Binksternet, first of all, I recognize that there are many subjects you can spend your time with on Wikipedia, so thanks for carving out a bit of time to talk about the contents of this article.
 * Per your recommendations, I have revised the sandbox draft to include information about financial aid and the AES chapter.
 * Regarding the transferability of credits, I understand that it is important to be precise. This is why the earlier version of the sandbox draft (visible here) read as: The university is nationally accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC). As most four-year colleges in the southern United States are regionally accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, it can be difficult to transfer credits between Full Sail and regionally accredited schools, according to media reports on the subject. However, ElKevbo revised this, removing the explanation that Full Sail is not part of the regional accreditation standard as most four year colleges.  What do you think of the prior version, as compared to Elkevbo's revision?
 * The phrase difficult to transfer was used in the draft, as it is the most accurate descriptor of the situation in that the national accreditation makes it difficult (though not universally impossible) to transfer such credits to a regionally accredited institution.
 * The TIME article from February does make the claim that Florida State won't accept them in referring to credits earned at Full Sail University. While TIME is certainly a reputable publication, this specific statement is not factually accurate, as Florida State does not maintain a blanket prohibition on credit transfers from Full Sail University. Credits are evaluated for transfer eligibility on a case-by-case basis, and in some cases, a few specific courses will transfer, while others will not.  There are multiple Full Sail University courses which fall under the Statewide Course Numbering System, and this enables them to be eligible for credit at Florida State University, as described here.
 * Based on the above, do you feel that the sandbox draft is more in line with Wikipedia's content guidelines than the current version of the article? Thank you, --Tylergarner (talk) 14:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Your link to the Florida Dept of Education does not specifically mention Full Sail or even Florida State, so the connection is not clear. At this point, the TIME article serves as the best source for whether Florida State accepts Full Sail credits. Binksternet (talk) 05:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The memo was authored by The Florida State Board of Education, and addressed to all State Colleges in Florida. It states that section 1007.24(7), F.S., guarantees the transfer of credit between all participating institutions, and both Florida State and Full Sail University are participating institutions. That said, I have read up on WP:SYNTHESIS, and understand that making such a point would be considered original research. Therefore, I recognize your point here. I have made an additional edit in my sandbox to reflect this information. Please provide feedback on the additions. Thank you, --Tylergarner (talk) 16:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the deal with saying that there are 36,000 alumni and then saying "multiple Grammy, Emmy and Academy Award winners"? The phrasing is misleading the reader into thinking that the mass of alumni are awardees. The 36k alumni probably include those who did not pass their courses and most certainly those who obtained only drudge work after graduating. The more I look at your text the more I think it is too promotional. Binksternet (talk) 19:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I agree with you, as the proposed “Notable people” section was awkwardly phrased, and as a result, was misleading. It was not my intention to do so—but I’m glad you pointed it out.  I’ve re-written this section in my sandbox draft to be more precise and matter-of-fact.  What are your thoughts on the revised version? Tylergarner (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

History
Hello, the existing History section in the article lacks citation and skips several parts of the History. I've written a draft to address these problems, citing reliable sources along the way. As mentioned before, I do not wish to implement this draft myself due to my conflict of interest. Would anyone else here be able to take a look? The draft is saved here: User:Tylergarner/sandbox --Tylergarner (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * For those who are following this talk page, Hallows AG has agreed to implement this proposal, as seen here. --Tylergarner (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

WWE NXT
News just broke that WWE NXT will be taping their shows on campus starting next week. It hasn't been officially announced yet, so this is just a heads up for when it does. Swamphunter (talk) 23:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

http://www.pwinsider.com/article/68355/wwe-nxt-graduating-to-its-own-tapings-moving-to-florida.html?p=1

Full Sail owned by TA Associates?
An IP and a new editor have repeatedly removed a sentence saying that TA Associates is the owner of Full Sail. The sentence is cited to a story in The New York Times: "Romney Offers Praise for a Donor’s Business". The new editor said to me on my talk page that the NYT made an error. I asked for a published statement by the NYT retracting the supposed error, but I don't think there is one. Huffington Post supported the NYT statement in at least two articles. Furthermore, there are webpages and online brochures supporting the idea that TA Associates owns and manages Full Sail. For instance, TA Associates lists Full Sail as one of their "active portfolio" companies. TA Associates Managing Director Jeffrey S. Barber is on the board of directors at Full Sail. TA Associates Managing Director Roger B. Kafker is a board observer at Full Sail. TA Associates Principal William D. Christ is "an active investor in Full Sail", among others. MarketWatch printed a TA Associates PR release saying "Mr. Christ played an active role in the firm's 2011 investment in Full Sail..."

On the other hand, the Des Moines Register published a USA Today piece saying that TA Associates "has a minority ownership stake in Full Sail." This makes me wonder: who owns the largest stake in Full Sail? No other reliable source is revealing anyone other than TA Associates. Until something is reliably published, we go with what we have. Binksternet (talk) 19:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Lead
The body of this article is well written, however, I'd like to propose a few changes to the Lead paragraph and the info box to bring them up to WP:Lead standards. Similar to my previous submission, can someone please review the section revisions and provide feedback, or implement into the article. I’ve saved a draft in my sandbox: User:Tylergarner/sandbox.

In addition, I'd like to propose that the Advert tag be removed, as it no longer applies to this article. --Tylergarner (talk) 04:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I have implemented these changes per conversation with ElKevbo here. --Tylergarner (talk) 19:40, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Accreditation
Two changes made here and here focus on the university's accreditation. How the sentence is arranged seems to introduce bias in a way that side-steps the WP:NPOV Policy, which states that Wikipedians should "prefer nonjudgemental language." I'm aware that I am too close to the subject, as mentioned on WP:COI as well as my User Page, and would prefer if someone else made an editorial decision regarding this topic. --Tylergarner (talk) 21:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Both of the linked changes point to the fairly important problem that FSU faces: its credits are not widely accepted by other schools. I think the problem must be prominent. Binksternet (talk) 22:58, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I see your point and agree with you. This should absolutely be a topic that is covered in this article, and it currently is. Please see the the Academics section where it states "The college has been subject to criticism regarding transferability of credits, as credits from nationally accredited schools often don't transfer to regionally accredited schools." This verbiage has various citations that discuss the topic in relation to Full Sail University.--Tylergarner (talk) 14:06, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I made a very minor change to remove an "although", but otherwise I don't see that it's remotely biased or judgmental. Plain and simple, Full Sail isn't regionally accredited, but it is nationally accredited, and this has been discussed in the media. That's all the text really says.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I reverted your edit, mostly on the grounds that I don't think it's grammatically correct (or maybe it just doesn't flow well). I also disagree that the original formulation has negative POV.  In fact, when I originally wrote it I tried to do the opposite as I anticipated that eventually someone would try to accuse us of being POV by strongly and clearly stating that the university isn't regionally accredited. ElKevbo (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Such an important issue shouldn't be buried in the article but made prominent for readers. It's not a POV issue or one of us trying to warn readers but it's a very important fact about the subject of this article so it needs to be positioned and emphasized appropriately. ElKevbo (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The grammar and flow were perfectly fine, and just further softened the already neutral and colorless language (it also removed a contraction that you restored). Either way, I think you'd have to be pretty sensitive to take issue with this treatment of the information.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:00, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If you have a very strong preference for your version, please feel free to revert back to it with my blessing. I don't like it, particularly the ", though" transition, but it's a relatively minor issue that I'm happy to concede.
 * I'm not entirely sure I understand your comment about sensitivity, however. I think that I completely understand why people want our articles to omit, hide, or otherwise play down when institutions to which they are connected lack accreditation: lack of accreditation often means and is usually interpreted as meaning that the institution is lower quality hence degrees from it are also lower quality.  On that basis I understand why some people object to us highlighting the (lack of) accreditation of institutions.  That doesn't mean that we should acquiesce to their requests but we should at least understand their point of view. ElKevbo (talk) 20:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your clarification on this subject. Due to my COI, I prefer to only make editorial suggestions on this article to be discussed in an open dialogue. I see your point and appreciate your time, consideration and feedback on the subject.--Tylergarner (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Page protection
There was a request for semi-protection on RfPP, because someone keeps adding that it has no regional accreditation. It looks more like a content dispute, because the issue of regional accreditation might be important, so I've added full protection for three days. If this is a mistake, please ping me. Sarah (SV) (talk) 00:48, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Please take a look at Sockpuppet investigations/Aaronh505. Discussion would be welcome, but every attempt at that has been ignored. Grayfell (talk)
 * , I apologize, I've misread the diffs. The new accounts are removing that it isn't regionally accredited. When I first checked, it looked as though they were being prevented from adding that it lacks regional accreditation, which seemed odd. If they're removing, that's a stronger case for semi-protection. Is it well-sourced that there's no regional accreditation? Sarah (SV) (talk) 01:09, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is sourced (example), so I'll fix that now. Sarah (SV) (talk) 01:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks! That's better than what I found. The school's own website still doesn't list any regional accreditation, so I don't think this has changed since 2012. Grayfell (talk) 01:19, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I've added semi-protection, but I'll leave you to restore the content as you see fit. Adding a source would help going forward. To and others, if you have a good reason for thinking the article ought not to include this, please argue your case here. Many thanks, Sarah (SV) (talk) 01:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I've used the Inside Higher Ed source to support the point. Hopefully that will be enough to get the conversation started. Grayfell (talk) 01:29, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, and sorry again for the mix-up. Sarah (SV) (talk) 01:45, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No worries, thanks for your help. Grayfell (talk) 01:57, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Request to update the article's infobox
Hello, I've returned to propose some additional updates to the Wikipedia article. As noted on my User Page, I am here on my behalf of my employer Full Sail University. I'd like to start by suggesting some simple improvements to the infobox.

Currently, the infobox says there are 16,100 students and points to this source, which actually says there are 15,500 students, as of 2017. Can the infobox be updated accordingly? Alternatively, there is this Full Sail University source, which says there are 15,700 students, as of 2016. I realize this is considered a primary source, so I'll let editors decide which source is preferred and update the infobox appropriately. If helpful, here is markup for the inline citation for the latter link:

The same fact brochure (link) says the campus is 210 acres, not 192. " " can be added as an inline citation here, or, there is this 2014 source, which mentions 212 acres. I'll let editors decide which source is preferred and update the infobox accordingly. If helpful, here is markup for the inline citation for the latter link:

I'll have some additional requests soon, but figured this and the request for the introduction (below) might be a good way to start. Thanks! Tylergarner (talk) 17:02, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Regards, VB00 (talk) 06:15, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Request to update the article's introduction
Per the above request, I also have a few requests to update the article's introduction on behalf of my employer, Full Sail.


 * 1) Can "for-profit university" be changed to "private, for-profit university"?
 * 2) Can "in unincorporated Orange County, Florida, near Winter Park, Florida" be changed to "in Winter Park, Florida, in the United States", per the mailing address on our official website? This is more accurate, and adds some national context.
 * 3) I propose the removal of "not regionally accredited, but is", which seems unnecessary, and replacing multiple types of degrees with simply "undergraduate and graduate degrees". Seems more appropriate to mention the national accreditation, instead of what the university is not. In other words, the sentence should read, "Full Sail is nationally accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) to award undergraduate and graduate degrees in..."
 * 4) Finally, the article currently says, "The school offers 49 degree programs and 2 graduate certificates and lists a student population of around 16,100." The source used as an inline citation (see "Program Types") says there are 34 Associate's degrees, 34 Bachelor's degrees, 14 Master's degrees, 2 certificates, and 2 Graduate Certificates. I propose updating the article to say, "The school offers 34 associate degrees, 34 Bachelor's degrees, 14 master's degrees, 2 certificates, and 2 graduate certificates." As for the student population size, I'll defer to the Infobox edit request posted above.

Thank you in advance for any assistance. Tylergarner (talk) 13:56, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I strongly object to any removal of "not regionally accredited." As is stated on Wikipedia's article Regional accreditation and supported by a scholarly source, "Regional accreditation is older, and with a few exceptions, more prestigious than national accreditation." Tylergarner, Wikipedia has had problems in the past with educational institutions attempting to downplay their accreditation status – for a particularly egregious case, see Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-04-01/In_the_media. While you have acted forthrightly by disclosing your conflict of interest and refraining from editing the article directly, I cannot accede to the third part of your request. Wikipedia must act in the interest of our readers, and it is my opinion that readers have a justified desire to know whether a school is regionally or nationally accredited. Altamel (talk) 02:18, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replying. Based on your explanation, I do understand your concern. Where I was coming from is that it would improve the article to state what the university is, instead of what it's not. To start with discussion of not having regional accreditation inserts a negative bias, to my mind. If removal of that phrase is not possible, how do you feel about restructuring the sentence to lead with mention of national accreditation? Would you be open to either: 1) "Full Sail is nationally accredited, as opposed to regionally accredited, by the ACCSC to award undergraduate and graduate degrees in…", or 2) "In the United States, higher education institutions can be regionally or nationally accredited. Full Sail University is nationally accredited by the ACCSC to award undergraduate and graduate degree in…"? I personally find the second option to be the most clear and factual, but I'm open to your suggestion.
 * While we discuss the third part of my request, if you have no objections, would you be able to make the edits for the other 3 parts? Thanks, Tylergarner (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Looking at the third part of the request, I would definitely prefer for the wording to stay just the way it's done in the article. The proposed sentences seem to be downplaying the importance of regional accreditation (1), or trying to avoid it entirely (2). This has also been a big problem for the article in the past, so any changes are unadvised. Regards, VB00 (talk) 07:17, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * That wording has just been changed by, who the short sentence I had added on the possible non-transferability of credit from nationally-accredited institutions. Since this uniquely American inversion of the usual pattern – of national recognition being the main or only one that counts – is so crucially important to anyone trying to understand what this college is, I suggest restoring it. I fully agree that the references could be improved – but that goes for most of the article, doesn't it? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * First, this article isn't about accreditation nor is it a guide for students or potential students of this institution. Inserting this kind of language in the lead of an article makes it seem like pushing our own POV that nationally accredited institutions (which are largely for-profit) are inferior to regionally accredited institutions and people need to be warned about this. Second, the sources kind of suck.  The first source doesn't even mention the issue of accreditation, the second one is much more vague than the language in this article it purportedly supports, and the third one is pretty weak as an authority on the intricacies of U.S. higher education accreditation.  Third, this isn't an essential characteristic of this institution so even if it belongs in this article - and I again assert that it doesn't - then it belongs in the body and not the lead. ElKevbo (talk) 14:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you misunderstood my concerns? I was only talking about the sentence mentioning it not being regionally accredited, not the whole lead paragraph. As such, I don't really have an opinion on the sentence mentioning the transferability of credits, but I do think that it needs to be somewhere in the article, which it is (the Academics section, where other criticism is mentioned as well). Regards, VB00 (talk) 20:00, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello . I could only implement a part of this request, and I have reasons for not including some of the info. First, it appears there isn't a consensus for your 3rd request, which had suggested has been disproven by guidelines and sources. As for your 4th request, some of us like to consider the individual degrees as part of a collection of degree programs, hence the calculated 49 programs. However, I have recalculated the numbers you gave and found an extra program, which has been added as a compromise. Please let us know if you have further requests for us. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, , , , and for your feedback. My purpose/goal as a participant here is to work with the Wikipedia community to improve the page overall and I appreciate the feedback that each of you have given to move the page forward. In the near future I will continue to request updates for each of the page sections, and look forward to your feedback on those requests as well. Tylergarner (talk) 16:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Criticism
Hello, a new section named Criticism was recently published to this article. I’ve since reviewed the policies WP:CRITS and WP:STRUCTURE, which states “try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other.” In order to stay in line with this policy, I would like to propose that the criticism section's contents be moved to existing sections of the article, as explained here. --Tylergarner (talk) 01:28, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Tylergarner...
Has anyone noticed the statement on Tylergarner's talk page regarding his employment at Full Sail? I think it is a little suspicious that he is asking that the criticism be spread throughout the article, as such a move would most certainly allow for it to be much more difficult to find criticism of the school within it. Mathmagic (talk) 01:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Tyler is asking for something that is allowed and sometimes even preferred—the distribution of criticism throughout the article. This is not a bad thing; it is simply one of the options. More frequently I have seen editors with a clear conflict of interest who want the opposite: criticism rounded up and corralled in its own section. I don't think Tyler's wish for this article is "suspicious" or bad. Binksternet (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello Mathmagic. I understand your concerns, and would like to follow up on Binksternet's comments above. The statements on this Talk Page, my User Page and WP:COIN regarding my employment at Full Sail University are intentional in order to properly disclose my conflict of interest, as this is recommended in the WP:COI guidelines. In addition, to stay within WP:COI guidelines, I have - and will continue to - discuss potential changes with other uninvolved Wikipedians in order to reach consensus. My intentions are to bring the Full Sail University article up to WP:UNIGUIDE and WP:STRUCTURE standards, providing a more informative user experience on this article, as well as wikipedia as a whole.--Tylergarner (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I would agree with Binksternet. Spreading criticism throughout an article is allowed according to the rules and perfectly normal. I think it's very debatable whether spreading or consolidating under one heading is better or worse for the organization in question. Also Tylergarner has been extremely forthcoming and respectful of Wikipedia's longstanding policies and has made no perceptible effort to be nefarious or subvert the rules. Lets be reasonable. Grama24 (talk) 18:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Request to update the article's "History" section
I am submitting an additional edit request on behalf of my employer with updates to the article's "History" section. I realize this request, which has 9 parts, may seem a bit daunting at first glance, but really several of these are quite minor and require little work:


 * 1) Currently, the second paragraph is one sentence: "Full Sail began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs, and for three years in a row, 1989–1991, the school won Mix magazine's TEC (Technical Excellence and Creativity) award for Best Recording School/Program." The inline citation used for this sentence is no longer working properly. I propose the following text: "In 1989, Full Sail began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs, winning Mix magazine's TEC (Technical Excellence and Creativity) award for Best Recording School/Program for three consecutive years between 1989 and 1991.", using this source (1989), this source (1990), and this source (1991). This sentence would lead directly into the next one (instead of starting a new paragraph): "Enrollment doubled during this same time period due to an increased interest in film and media studies." If helpful, here is markup for the inline citations:
 * 2) The first sentence of the section's fourth paragraph says, "The school began to receive notice in the early 2000s within the recording arts industry for its programs", which is redundant as this wording appears in the prose above. I propose this wording instead: "In 2005, Rolling Stone named Full Sail as "one of the five best music programs in the country" in its book, Schools that Rock: The Rolling Stone College Guide."
 * 3) I have a concern about this sentence in the next paragraph: "Full Sail's online offerings have expanded since that time to include fields not represented among their campus degrees, including Internet Marketing and Sports Management, as well as online versions of their campus degrees, such as Web Design & Development and Computer Animation." Full Sail does not offer a sports management degree. I think this is meant to refer to the "Sports Marketing and Media" degree program, details of which can be found here. Can this sentence be updated accordingly?
 * 4) The sentence starting with "As the university grew..." mentions "bachelor of science in sports marketing and media and a master of science degree in game design". Should these degree names be capitalized like the others throughout the article?
 * 5) Is the following content really necessary? "Full Sail drew national attention when 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney cited it as an example of the way rising costs of education can be solved. Romney did not mention that its chief executive, Bill Heavener, is a major campaign donor and fund-raiser." Romney's comments may have been relevant during the 2012 election, but is this mention really that important in the grand scheme of Full Sail’s existence?
 * (Note: If editors decide to remove this content, it'll be necessary to update the following sentence, which starts with "Later that year", as well. This can be replaced with "In 2012," ...)
 * 1) In this same sentence (starting with "Later that year"), WWE NXT is referred to as an "internet show". However, the series was revamped and actually became a professional wrestling television program that airs on the WWE Network. Linking to the WWE NXT (TV series) article, which mentions Full Sail here, might actually be more accurate and appropriate.
 * 2) The section's last sentence ("On June 23, 2015...") is currently unsourced and marked as such. I find the sentence's current wording a bit ambiguous, so I propose the following instead: "In June 2015, Full Sail began hosting the WWE Tough Enough series, which airs on USA Network.", per this source. If helpful, here is markup for an inline citation:
 * 3) Finally, I propose the addition of two additional sentences, for the end of the "History" section: "As part of an ongoing partnership between Full Sail and WWE, students receive opportunities to produce WWE NXT tapings, and merchandise and tickets sales contribute to a scholarship fund for students enrolled at the university. As of March 2016, the partnership between WWE and Full Sail University had resulted in $250,000 in scholarships.    " If helpful, following is markup for the inline citations:
 * 1) In this same sentence (starting with "Later that year"), WWE NXT is referred to as an "internet show". However, the series was revamped and actually became a professional wrestling television program that airs on the WWE Network. Linking to the WWE NXT (TV series) article, which mentions Full Sail here, might actually be more accurate and appropriate.
 * 2) The section's last sentence ("On June 23, 2015...") is currently unsourced and marked as such. I find the sentence's current wording a bit ambiguous, so I propose the following instead: "In June 2015, Full Sail began hosting the WWE Tough Enough series, which airs on USA Network.", per this source. If helpful, here is markup for an inline citation:
 * 3) Finally, I propose the addition of two additional sentences, for the end of the "History" section: "As part of an ongoing partnership between Full Sail and WWE, students receive opportunities to produce WWE NXT tapings, and merchandise and tickets sales contribute to a scholarship fund for students enrolled at the university. As of March 2016, the partnership between WWE and Full Sail University had resulted in $250,000 in scholarships.    " If helpful, following is markup for the inline citations:
 * 1) Finally, I propose the addition of two additional sentences, for the end of the "History" section: "As part of an ongoing partnership between Full Sail and WWE, students receive opportunities to produce WWE NXT tapings, and merchandise and tickets sales contribute to a scholarship fund for students enrolled at the university. As of March 2016, the partnership between WWE and Full Sail University had resulted in $250,000 in scholarships.    " If helpful, following is markup for the inline citations:

I'll be watching this page to see if editors have any questions or concerns about these proposed changes. Thank you! Tylergarner (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Tylergarner Some of these requests seem okay and will be considered for implementation. The Romney bit I think is relevant and noteworthy and removing that would justify the removal of less noteworthy/relevant content that leans in the other direction. In other words it would set a troubling precedent. Thanks for working with the community on this. Grama24 (talk) 19:16, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced content removal, part 2
Continuing on the above edit request on behalf of Full Sail (and as part of my work at Beutler Ink), I'd like to propose additional removals of unsourced content in an effort to further improve this article. Same as above, I'm organizing this request by article section, and seek volunteers to review these suggestions and update the article appropriately.

If my math is correct, implementing this and the above request (part 1) would remove 15 inappropriate sources and 12 "citation needed" tags. Additionally, the proposed content removals eliminate use of all Full Sail University sources, so I'm hoping the reviewing editor(s) will consider removing the tag at the top of the article warning readers: "This article may contain improper references to self-published sources." Please let me know if other inline citations need to be addressed in order for this tag to be removed.

Academics
In the "Academics" section, I propose removing the following:
 * "" This claim is unsourced.
 * " This content is also unsourced.
 * "" Eliminating this content would remove 5 "citation needed" tags.
 * Removal of the current, which directs readers to the "Use the Data" website for the National Center for Education Statistics' Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System. Furthermore, this citation is not needed. The claim says, "According to Inside Higher Ed, 'a closer look at the numbers reveals that graduation rates are not a major problem at Full Sail: the overall graduation rate is a fairly high 78 percent, according to federal data.'" This direct quote can be sourced by just the Inside Higher Ed article.
 * "" This content is sourced by Full Sail's website and a press release. (If this content is removed, you might also consider removing "Additionally," at the start of the following sentence.)
 * "" This content is also inappropriately sourced.

The editor(s) reviewing this request can remove these sentences individually, or if preferred, I've prepared markup that reflects all of the removals and can be copy and pasted in the article in place of the current section:

Academic degree programs are primarily focused on audio, film and media production, video game design, animation and other studies related to the media and entertainment industries.

According to The New York Times, Full Sail has many of the same problems as other institutions in the for-profit college industry. They reported that some of the university's academic programs have high loan burdens and low graduation rates. The $81,000 video game art program graduated 38 percent of its students, who carried a median debt load of nearly $59,000 in federal and private loans in 2008. The Times cited other Full Sail degree programs as having higher graduation rates, noting that the master's in entertainment business, "a yearlong program with a $36,245 tuition, graduated 80 percent of its students, nearly 63 percent of them on time." According to Inside Higher Ed, "a closer look at the numbers reveals that graduation rates are not a major problem at Full Sail: the overall graduation rate is a fairly high 78 percent, according to federal data." In the same article, however, The New York Times noted that Full Sail's own students have posted criticisms of the school, including some that call Full Sail a "scam" because of its high costs, low placement, and difficulties with credit transfer.

The college was named FAPSC School/College of the Year (an award for which only career colleges in Florida were eligible) by the Florida Association of Postsecondary Schools and Colleges (FAPSC) in 2008 and 2011, 21st-century best practices in distance learning by the United States Distance Learning Association (USDLA) in 2011, and was the recipient of a 2011 New Media Consortium Center for Excellence award.

In 2007, Full Sail University offered its first online degree program, a master's degree in Entertainment Business. Full Sail custom-built a learning management system for use with their online courses; the LMS is Macintosh-based, and utilizes content created by an in-house curriculum development team in conjunction with campus-based instructors.

Although the university is not regionally accredited, it is nationally accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC). The college has been subject to criticism regarding transferability of credits, as credits from nationally accredited schools often do not transfer to regionally accredited schools.

Full Sail has a 55% overall graduation rate and a 21.1% student loan default rate, higher than the national student loan default rate of 11.3%. It is also listed on the Century Foundation's website as a university which includes restrictive clauses in the enrollment contracts, which are intended to minimize the legal recourse available to students in the event of disputes.

Academic degree programs are primarily focused on audio, film and media production, video game design, animation and other studies related to the media and entertainment industries.

According to The New York Times, Full Sail has many of the same problems as other institutions in the for-profit college industry. They reported that some of the university's academic programs have high loan burdens and low graduation rates. The $81,000 video game art program graduated 38 percent of its students, who carried a median debt load of nearly $59,000 in federal and private loans in 2008. The Times cited other Full Sail degree programs as having higher graduation rates, noting that the master's in entertainment business, "a yearlong program with a $36,245 tuition, graduated 80 percent of its students, nearly 63 percent of them on time." According to Inside Higher Ed, "a closer look at the numbers reveals that graduation rates are not a major problem at Full Sail: the overall graduation rate is a fairly high 78 percent, according to federal data." In the same article, however, The New York Times noted that Full Sail's own students have posted criticisms of the school, including some that call Full Sail a "scam" because of its high costs, low placement, and difficulties with credit transfer.

The college was named FAPSC School/College of the Year (an award for which only career colleges in Florida were eligible) by the Florida Association of Postsecondary Schools and Colleges (FAPSC) in 2008 and 2011, 21st-century best practices in distance learning by the United States Distance Learning Association (USDLA) in 2011, and was the recipient of a 2011 New Media Consortium Center for Excellence award.

In 2007, Full Sail University offered its first online degree program, a master's degree in Entertainment Business. Full Sail custom-built a learning management system for use with their online courses; the LMS is Macintosh-based, and utilizes content created by an in-house curriculum development team in conjunction with campus-based instructors.

Although the university is not regionally accredited, it is nationally accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC). The college has been subject to criticism regarding transferability of credits, as credits from nationally accredited schools often do not transfer to regionally accredited schools.

Full Sail has a 55% overall graduation rate and a 21.1% student loan default rate, higher than the national student loan default rate of 11.3%. It is also listed on the Century Foundation's website as a university which includes restrictive clauses in the enrollment contracts, which are intended to minimize the legal recourse available to students in the event of disputes.

Thanks for making these improvements to the article. I do remain concerned about current reference #39, which which directs readers to the "Use the Data" website for the National Center for Education Statistics' Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System. Please see my reasoning above for removing this inline citation. Do you mind taking another look? Inkian Jason (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:28, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Notable people
For the "Notable people" section, I propose removing the entire first paragraph, all of which is inappropriately sourced: "" Furthermore, this content seems to focus more on the specific accomplishments of individual people, such as the number of Grammy awards, etc. I do think adding mention of notable alumni is appropriately, but I'd argue the aforementioned content is unnecessary detail.

Since none of Leslie Brathwaite, Marc Fishman, or Martin "Tike" Santos are notable enough to qualify for Wikipedia articles of their own, I also propose removing the following content: ""

Finally, I propose removing mention of, since the claim is currently inappropriately sourced. This would leave mention of only Machinedrum, so the remaining inline citation confirming his attendance should probably be moved to the end of the remaining text: "Machinedrum also attended." Actually, I propose changing "Machinedrum also attended" to "Machinedrum attended Full Sail", in order for the sentence to make sense in context.

Again, these changes can be made one-by-one, or if copying and pasting is easier, here is markup with the above suggestions implemented (I also moved the image to the top of the section):



Dungeons & Dragons co-creator Dave Arneson taught at the school from 2000 through 2008. Stedman Graham began teaching as an adjunct professor in 2009.

On April 20, 2009, Full Sail marked its 30th anniversary with the opening of the Full Sail University Hall of Fame. Machinedrum attended Full Sail.



Dungeons & Dragons co-creator Dave Arneson taught at the school from 2000 through 2008. Stedman Graham began teaching as an adjunct professor in 2009.

On April 20, 2009, Full Sail marked its 30th anniversary with the opening of the Full Sail University Hall of Fame. Machinedrum attended Full Sail.

I will be sharing an appropriately sourced list of notable alumni at a later date, but for now I think these should be pretty straightforward removals of poorly sourced material.

I am pinging you all as recent talk page contributors, in case you're willing to take a look. The majority of this request, and the above one, is to remove unsourced content, so I'm hoping these edits offer a way forward that everyone finds amenable. Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 22:10, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I haven't yet looked at these proposed edits in detail but as a general principle I will rarely object to unsourced material being removed from an article. ElKevbo (talk) 21:36, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've posted requests for help removing the unsourced content at WikiProject Universities and WikiProject Florida. Inkian Jason (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that you're making reasonable requests and meeting anyone's expectations so if you don't hear a response from someone in a reasonable time frame it's probably okay to make the edits. If someone still objects after all of this time and the detailed information you've shared then it's up to them to make that known in a constructive way. ElKevbo (talk) 20:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a closer look at this request, and for your endorsement on the changes. I do not edit articles directly because of my conflict of interest, so I'm actually hoping to find an editor who is willing to delete the unsourced content appropriately, or copy over the markup I've provided. I realize this requires volunteer time, but I avoid editing the main space in order to be most compliant with Wikipedia's rules regarding COI editing. Might you be willing to make the updates to the article? If not, I'm fine waiting for another editor to help out. Either way, I appreciate your input and the time you've put into reviewing my request so far. Inkian Jason (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The changes look reasonable to me and I have implemented them. Let me know if I missed anything. Thank you for your meticulous efforts to abide by the conflict of interest guidelines. Darylgolden(talk) Ping when replying 13:08, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again for reviewing this request. Your changes look good. I did have one question in the "Academics" section (see above), and now I'm hoping you will consider removing the tag at the top of the article that reads, "This article may contain improper references to self-published sources. (September 2017)" I don't believe the tag applies any longer. If there remain any reasons for keeping this tag, please let me know so I can address them accordingly. Thanks again. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:28, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for removing the tag. I did leave comments at the bottom of this section and this section, if you're able to revisit. Inkian Jason (talk) 14:13, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have edited as per your request. Darylgolden(talk) Ping when replying 13:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Unsourced content removal, part 1
On behalf of Full Sail University, and as part of my work at Beutler Ink, I am here to propose improvements to this Wikipedia article. Any editors watching this page may be familiar with User:Tylergarner, who is a Full Sail employee, and the requests he has posted here in the past; I'll be taking over from Tyler as the institution's representative on Wikipedia for now. While Tyler is still with Full Sail and may make requests in future, he will not be active here while I am offering suggestions.

I will refrain from editing the article directly, and will suggest improvements on this talk page for volunteer editors to review and implement appropriately. I'd like to start by addressing some inappropriately sourced content, most of which is unsourced. To make reviewing easier, I've separated my requests by section:

Infobox
In the infobox, I propose removing:
 * "" as the number of administrative staff members (this claim is currently unsourced)
 * "" for the "Campus" field (also unsourced)

These changes can be made manually, or if you prefer to copy and paste markup, below is a version of the infobox markup with these two fields removed:

I may propose other changes to the infobox later, but for now, I'm just focused on removing the inappropriately sourced information. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Introduction/lead
In the introduction/lead, I propose removing, "" This claim is currently unsourced.

Here is markup for the introduction's second paragraph, with the aforementioned claim removed:

Full Sail is nationally accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) to award associate degrees, bachelor's degrees, and master's degrees in audio, film, design, computer animation, business, and other fields. It has approximately 8900 undergraduate and 170 postgrad students.

Full Sail is nationally accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC) to award associate degrees, bachelor's degrees, and master's degrees in audio, film, design, computer animation, business, and other fields. It has approximately 8900 undergraduate and 170 postgrad students.

There is also an additional "citation needed" tag in the introduction, after "Full Sail relocated to Florida in 1980". This source confirms the 1980 date and can be added to resolve the "citation needed" tag. Here is markup for the inline citation:



Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

History
In the "History" section, I propose removing:
 * "" This claim is unsourced.
 * " The claims are sourced, but already mentioned in the preceding paragraph. If editors prefer to merge the two pieces of text to retain sourcing, I suggest removing the inline citation following "an online version of the Entertainment Business master's degree", as this is a press release.
 * "" This content is currently unsourced.
 * "" The source verifying this claim is a press release.
 * "" This content is currently unsourced.

Again, these bullet points can be addressed one-by-one, or if removal of all these claims seems appropriate, here is markup for the "History" section with the unsourced and redundant content removed:

Full Sail was founded by Jon Phelps in Dayton, Ohio, in 1979. Operating under the name “Full Sail Recording Workshop” at that time, the school was established to train students on the production side of entertainment and music. The curriculum was solely focused on recording arts at first, consisting of courses for students to learn how to become audio engineers. The school relocated to Orlando, Florida, in 1980 and new courses were added to the core recording arts program. In 1989, Full Sail moved to its current location outside of Winter Park, Florida, in unincorporated Orange County; the following year, it was accredited to grant specialized associate's degrees.

Full Sail began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs, and for three years in a row, 1989–1991, the school won Mix magazine's TEC (Technical Excellence and Creativity) award for Best Recording School/Program.

Enrollment doubled between 1989 and 1991, at a time of increased interest in film and media studies. Full Sail expanded accordingly by adding classrooms and equipment, and increasing the number of courses offered. This accelerated period of expansion was not without its challenges and the school encountered financial difficulties in 1992, which were subsequently resolved as it entered a period of more conservative growth. Between 1995 and 1999, specialized associate degrees or associate degrees were added in computer animation, digital media, game design and development, and show production and touring. All of these degrees were later expanded into full bachelor's degree programs.

In 2005 Rolling Stone called Full Sail “one of the five best music programs in the country”. The first bachelor's degree program, a Bachelor of Science degree in entertainment business, was made available at the school in 2005. In 2007, the first master's degree program was offered—also in entertainment business. Online degree programs began in 2007 as well—the first of which was an online adaptation of the existing Entertainment Business Master of Science.

The additions of the master's degree programs, among other factors, led to the school being recognized as a "university" by the state of Florida. Its name was officially changed from Full Sail Real World Education to Full Sail University in 2008, after attaining university status from the Florida Department of Education's Commission for Independent Education. The campus expanded at this time with the addition of a 1,780-foot-long backlot with 18 city facades, designed to replicate the sets used in production of actual Hollywood films and television shows, which later expanded to 2,078 linear feet.

As the university grew in size and student body between 2006 and 2011, the curriculum and degree programs were broadened as well, adding programs such as a bachelor of science in sports marketing and media and a master of science degree in game design.

Full Sail drew national attention when 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney cited it as an example of the way rising costs of education can be solved. Romney did not mention that its chief executive, Bill Heavener, is a major campaign donor and fund-raiser. Later that year, WWE began filming all episodes of its internet television show WWE NXT, which serves as the flagship show for WWE's developmental territory NXT, at Full Sail University.

Full Sail was founded by Jon Phelps in Dayton, Ohio, in 1979. Operating under the name “Full Sail Recording Workshop” at that time, the school was established to train students on the production side of entertainment and music. The curriculum was solely focused on recording arts at first, consisting of courses for students to learn how to become audio engineers. The school relocated to Orlando, Florida, in 1980 and new courses were added to the core recording arts program. In 1989, Full Sail moved to its current location outside of Winter Park, Florida, in unincorporated Orange County; the following year, it was accredited to grant specialized associate's degrees.

Full Sail began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs, and for three years in a row, 1989–1991, the school won Mix magazine's TEC (Technical Excellence and Creativity) award for Best Recording School/Program.

Enrollment doubled between 1989 and 1991, at a time of increased interest in film and media studies. Full Sail expanded accordingly by adding classrooms and equipment, and increasing the number of courses offered. This accelerated period of expansion was not without its challenges and the school encountered financial difficulties in 1992, which were subsequently resolved as it entered a period of more conservative growth. Between 1995 and 1999, specialized associate degrees or associate degrees were added in computer animation, digital media, game design and development, and show production and touring. All of these degrees were later expanded into full bachelor's degree programs.

In 2005 Rolling Stone called Full Sail “one of the five best music programs in the country”. The first bachelor's degree program, a Bachelor of Science degree in entertainment business, was made available at the school in 2005. In 2007, the first master's degree program was offered—also in entertainment business. Online degree programs began in 2007 as well—the first of which was an online adaptation of the existing Entertainment Business Master of Science.

The additions of the master's degree programs, among other factors, led to the school being recognized as a "university" by the state of Florida. Its name was officially changed from Full Sail Real World Education to Full Sail University in 2008, after attaining university status from the Florida Department of Education's Commission for Independent Education. The campus expanded at this time with the addition of a 1,780-foot-long backlot with 18 city facades, designed to replicate the sets used in production of actual Hollywood films and television shows, which later expanded to 2,078 linear feet.

As the university grew in size and student body between 2006 and 2011, the curriculum and degree programs were broadened as well, adding programs such as a bachelor of science in sports marketing and media and a master of science degree in game design.

Full Sail drew national attention when 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney cited it as an example of the way rising costs of education can be solved. Romney did not mention that its chief executive, Bill Heavener, is a major campaign donor and fund-raiser. Later that year, WWE began filming all episodes of its internet television show WWE NXT, which serves as the flagship show for WWE's developmental territory NXT, at Full Sail University.

I'll pause for now, before suggesting similar content removals for the "Academics" and "Notable people" sections. I hope reviewing editors will find these pretty straightforward and uncontroversial, but do please let me know if you have any questions or concerns, here or on my user talk page. Thanks for any help in advance. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comment below. I am still looking for an editor to take a closer look at these requests, if you're available. I've also added the "request edit" template to this section. Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 14:02, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I noticed you just reverted some changes made to the article. Might you be willing to review this request to remove unsourced content from the article as well? Inkian Jason (talk) 22:21, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing this request. I've reviewed your changes to the article, and I think the only concern I still have is the press release used to source the sentence: "In 2007, Full Sail University offered its first online degree program, a master's degree in Entertainment Business." (I am referring to current reference #43.) Additionally, this sentence is redundant to content in the "History" section. Does removing this sentence and source seem appropriate to you? If not, can you provide a reason for keeping? Thank you for taking another look. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Proposed improvements to the "History" section
Hello. I am back with an additional edit request, which I am submitting on behalf of Full Sail University. With unsourced content now removed, I'd like to propose some additional changes to the article, section by section, to make reviewing easier for volunteer editors. I'd like to start with the "History" section. I've reviewed the content and sourcing in detail, and identified some improvements for Wikipedia editors to consider. These include: fleshing out the university's early history a bit more, including mention of the school's previous official names, splitting the section into two subsections for better flow and organization, and adding some of Full Sail's more recent developments.

I've proposed an updated section below, and made the following changes:


 * split the single "History" section into subsections for "Founding and early development" and "Relocation to Winter Park and expansion"
 * added mention of the university's founder, Jon Phelps, purchasing ad space in Rolling Stone
 * added that the school first operated as Full Sail Recording Workshop, and later as Full Sail Productions, Full Sail Center for the Recording Arts, and Full Sail Real World Education
 * added mention of accreditation by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, as well as new programs implemented following the school's relocation to Florida
 * added mention of the digital media, filmmaking, and video production programs implemented in the early 1990s
 * added mention of a planned partnership with the University of Florida, along with the number of degree programs and students at Full Sail, as of 2011
 * added a bit more about the WWE/NXT tapings and partnership with Full Sail
 * added mention of the recently announced Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting and the sportscasting degree

Additionally, I made some minor wording and flow improvements to improve readability. It is somewhat difficult to show some of the minor changes made, but the following rendering shows the most significant changes in. I hope the color coding helps with side-by-side comparison, but I can create a diff showing specific changes if that'd be helpful. Finally, I should note, Full Sail has reviewed the proposed content to confirm accuracy to the best of their knowledge.

Full Sail was founded by Jon Phelps in Dayton, Ohio, in 1979. The school was established to train students on the production side of entertainment and music,. The curriculum was solely focused on recording arts at first, consisting of courses for students to learn how to become audio engineers.

The school relocated to Orlando, Florida in 1980. Full Sail's focus on audio engineering courses

In 1989, the school moved to its current location in Winter Park, Florida. , the institution began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs, winning TEC Awards for "outstanding institutional achievement" in the "best recording school/program" category for three consecutive years between 1989 and 1991. Student enrollment doubled during this time. , and expanded accordingly by adding classrooms and equipment, and increasing the number of courses offered. This accelerated period of expansion was not without its challenges and the school encountered financial difficulties in 1992, which were subsequently resolved as it entered a period of more conservative growth. Garry Jones was named president in 1999, and the school was operating as Full Sail Real World Education by the early 2000s.

In 2005, Rolling Stone said Full Sail offered "one of the five best music programs in the country". The school's first bachelor's and master's degree programs were made available in 2005 and 2007, respectively, both in entertainment business. Online degree programs began in 2007 as well, the first of which was an adaptation of the existing entertainment business Master of Science. The additions of the master's degree programs, and the school's faculty standards, led to Full Sail being granted university status by the state of Florida. Its name was officially changed from Full Sail Real World Education to Full Sail University in 2008, after being licensed by the Florida Department of Education's Commission for Independent Education. The campus expanded at this time with the addition of a 1,780-foot-long backlot with 18 city facades, designed to replicate the sets used in production of actual Hollywood films and television shows.

As the university grew in size and student body between 2006 and 2011, the curriculum and degree programs were broadened as well, adding programs such as a Bachelor of Science in sports marketing and media and a Master of Science degree in game design.

Full Sail drew national attention when 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney cited the school as an example of the way rising costs of education can be solved. Romney did not mention that its chief executive, Bill Heavener, is a major campaign donor and fundraiser.

Later that year, WWE began filming all episodes of WWE NXT, which serves as the flagship show for WWE's developmental territory NXT, at Full Sail. In June 2015, Full Sail began hosting the WWE Tough Enough series.

If the proposed text looks good to reviewing editors, the following markup can be copied and pasted over the existing markup for the section:

==History== ===Founding and early development=== Full Sail was founded by Jon Phelps in Dayton, Ohio, in 1979. Phelps initially advertised the school by purchasing ad space in Rolling Stone. The school was established to train students on the production side of entertainment and music, and first operated under the name Full Sail Recording Workshop, then Full Sail Productions. The curriculum was solely focused on recording arts at first, consisting of courses for students to learn how to become audio engineers.

The school relocated to Orlando, Florida in 1980. Full Sail earned accreditation from the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, enabling the institution to present academic degrees and students to apply for student loans. Full Sail's focus on audio engineering courses expanded to include filmmaking, music production and engineering, video games, and web design.

===Relocation to Winter Park and expansion=== In 1989, the school moved to its current location in Winter Park, Florida. Operating as the Full Sail Center for the Recording Arts, the institution began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs, winning TEC Awards for "outstanding institutional achievement" in the "best recording school/program" category for three consecutive years between 1989 and 1991. Student enrollment doubled during this time. The school added a digital media program in the early 1990s, and expanded accordingly by adding classrooms and equipment, and increasing the number of courses offered. This accelerated period of expansion was not without its challenges and the school encountered financial difficulties in 1992, which were subsequently resolved as it entered a period of more conservative growth. It was offering degrees in audio engineering as well as filmmaking and video production by 1992. Garry Jones was named president in 1999, and the school was operating as Full Sail Real World Education by the early 2000s.

In 2005, Rolling Stone said Full Sail offered "one of the five best music programs in the country". The school's first bachelor's and master's degree programs were made available in 2005 and 2007, respectively, both in entertainment business. Online degree programs began in 2007 as well, the first of which was an adaptation of the existing entertainment business Master of Science. The additions of the master's degree programs, and the school's faculty standards, led to Full Sail being granted university status by the state of Florida. Its name was officially changed from Full Sail Real World Education to Full Sail University in 2008, after being licensed by the Florida Department of Education's Commission for Independent Education. The campus expanded at this time with the addition of a 1,780-foot-long backlot with 18 city facades, designed to replicate the sets used in production of actual Hollywood films and television shows.

As the university grew in size and student body between 2006 and 2011, the curriculum and degree programs were broadened as well, adding programs such as a Bachelor of Science in sports marketing and media and a Master of Science degree in game design. In late 2011, the University of Florida and Full Sail announced plans to share program resources and make transferring between institutions easier for students. Full Sail offered 37 degree programs and had approximately 15,200 students enrolled at the time.

Full Sail drew national attention when 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney cited the school as an example of the way rising costs of education can be solved. Romney did not mention that its chief executive, Bill Heavener, is a major campaign donor and fundraiser.

Later that year, WWE began filming all episodes of WWE NXT, which serves as the flagship show for WWE's developmental territory NXT, at Full Sail. In June 2015, Full Sail began hosting the WWE Tough Enough series. As part of an ongoing partnership between Full Sail and WWE, students receive opportunities to produce WWE NXT tapings, and merchandise and tickets sales contribute to a scholarship fund for students enrolled at the university. As of January 2018, the partnership between WWE and Full Sail had resulted in $385,000 in scholarships.

Full Sail University’s Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting was established in 2017, with a new sportscasting degree program and instruction provided by sportscaster, radio personality, and actor Dan Patrick, among other industry leaders.

I don't edit articles directly because of my conflict of interest, and I'm seeking help from volunteer editors to review the proposed changes and implement markup appropriately. I don't think the additions are particularly controversial, and they are based on coverage in reliable secondary sources. I'm happy to address any questions or concerns here.

I am "pinging" you since you replied to the 2 requests above, in case you're willing to help again.

The first 2 edit requests in this series have already improved the article greatly, so thanks for the help this far, and for the additional assistance moving forward. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * This is a 29K edit request. May I suggest that you try again with one of no more than, say, one-twentieth of that size? Volunteer editors are not paid by the hour, or indeed at all, so demands on their time should be kept to an absolute minimum. This is not a good Wikipedia page, I readily agree; that's probably because of the endless interference here by COI editors. We can hope that it will, over time, be improved by good-faith volunteers with some interest in the topic. Meanwhile, if there is some important error of fact in the page, do please point it out here on the talk-page, with details of the change requested and the independent reliable sources that support the change; but please, for pity's sake, be brief. Trivial changes like section headings are simply not worth wasting anyone's time with. You might like to read WP:PAYTALK, and – for an explanation of why we can't even consider dropping chunks of paid content into our encyclopaedia – deceptive advertising. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for replying, Justlettersandnumbers. The vast majority of the 29K bytes is actually existing text in the article -- I've shown the parts that I'm asking for changes to in, and I provided a rendering and markup for the entire section to make implementing markup easier which definitely make this seem like a giant request if you're looking at the size of my edit, rather than the changes themselves. With that said, I do understand if editors would prefer to review a smaller piece at a time, so I've submitted a subsection below for just the proposed "Founding and early development" subsection. Inkian Jason (talk) 21:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

"Founding and early development"
Based on Justlettersandnumbers' comment above, I've reduced this edit request to only address the first part of the proposed "History" section. If reviewing editors are willing to take on the additional "Relocation to Winter Park and expansion" subsection, that would be great! Otherwise, I'm happy to submit another subsection with an additional edit request later. I've outlined proposed changes above, and again, I'm asking editors to focus on the additions shown in green text.

For this section, I propose adding mention of how the school's founder initially advertised, the former official names Full Sail Recording Workshop and Full Sail Productions, and a sentence about accreditation, all based on secondary coverage. Please see the below rendering and markup:

Full Sail was founded by Jon Phelps in Dayton, Ohio, in 1979. The school was established to train students on the production side of entertainment and music,. The curriculum was solely focused on recording arts at first, consisting of courses for students to learn how to become audio engineers.

The school relocated to Orlando, Florida in 1980. Full Sail's focus on audio engineering courses

If the proposed text looks good to reviewing editors, the following markup can be copied and pasted over the existing markup for the subsection:

==History== ===Founding and early development=== Full Sail was founded by Jon Phelps in Dayton, Ohio, in 1979. Phelps initially advertised the school by purchasing ad space in Rolling Stone. The school was established to train students on the production side of entertainment and music, and first operated under the name Full Sail Recording Workshop, then Full Sail Productions. The curriculum was solely focused on recording arts at first, consisting of courses for students to learn how to become audio engineers.

The school relocated to Orlando, Florida in 1980. Full Sail earned accreditation from the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, enabling the institution to present academic degrees and students to apply for student loans. Full Sail's focus on audio engineering courses expanded to include filmmaking, music production and engineering, video games, and web design.

Is there a volunteer who is willing to review the proposed text and implement appropriately? Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 21:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Added the request template for better viewing to other editors. – TheGridExe  ( talk )  17:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , I wonder if you read my reply to your earlier request (my post dated 18:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC), above)? Anyway:
 * if there is some some significant error or omission of fact that you wish to have corrected, please specify it here, together with the independent reliable sources that support it. A good request might read something like "The date of foundation is incorrect: it was not 1492, but 1942, as shown in the [reliable source], on page [n]"
 * stuff like which magazines the studio advertised in its early years is not "significant" in any real sense of the word
 * the changes you propose need actually to be supported by the references; in which of your references 3 and 4 do you see that the school was ever called "Full Sail Recording Workshop"? (one of them does say it was called "Appalachia Sound")
 * there seems to be a real risk that content in Wikipedia commissioned by a person or body in order to publicise the same could fall under the definition of native advertising/deceptive advertising (two different descriptions) as defined by the FTC, and thus be illegal. We don't have any policy on this yet, but I know I'm not alone in wanting to err on the side of caution in the meantime
 * that means that while the underlying facts of any change you propose may be considered on their merits, the actual text – the form of words – probably will not
 * we're trying to write an encyclopaedia here, so have rather less than no time for cosmetic massage of the corporate image of this school
 * which, we learn, is among the most expensive in the USA, and has been very successful in property speculation – facts that are, unaccountably, not mentioned in our article.
 * Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply, and I appreciate your caution given this is a COI request. I also understand what you're saying with regards to offering up changes as individual facts to correct or add, however part of what I'm trying to do with these requests is address the tags on the article which are typically based on the tone of information, so I was offering wording in order to try to address those. Based on your feedback here, I'll try opening a discussion to get input on what specifically should be fixed to address those tags, then I can offer more targeted requests.


 * Regarding the sourcing, that's a good catch: when I submitted the edit request, I believed reference #4 supported the claim, but I'm no longer able to access the article's content to check. I understand all claims must be sourced, and I'm sorry for any confusion. Here is another source confirming the original name "Full Sail Recording Workshop" and I've added that as a citation above. "Full Sail Productions" is mentioned/sourced in the lead, but not the article body, which is why I'd added it to the history section draft. Do you agree that former official names are worth adding to the article?


 * For the other additions, my goal was to flesh out the school's early history, improving flow and readability along the way. Details like "" provides readers with historical context and shows how the school developed over time. Similarly, adding mention of the additional programs (filmmaking, video games, web design) demonstrates institutional growth and academic program development. If you and other editors prefer to review this as smaller requests for individual additions, I can do so, I just didn't want to overwhelm with a long list of changes. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:15, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Full Sail Center for the Recording Arts
Hello again! To hopefully make things easier for editors to review, I'd like to offer some smaller requests for individual changes. To start, I propose adding mention of one of Full Sail's former official names (Full Sail Center for the Recording Arts, per this source) and replacing existing bad sourcing.

I suggest changing: "" to the following:


 * ", the institution began to receive notice within the audio industry for its programs,

Changed wording is shown in green. The first part of the suggested sentence presents the school's former official name, and the latter part of the sentence: 1) provides improved wording based on sourcing (the current inline citation directs readers to a bad URL, and is a primary source), and 2) links readers to the Wikipedia article about the TEC Awards. I don't edit the main space because of my COI, so if this improvement seems reasonable, is an editor willing to implement appropriately? Thanks in advance for any help. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , I don't wish to be discourteous, but do you have any conception at all of what the word "promotional" means? Of course we are not going to place your advertising copy in our encyclopaedia, where neutrality is one of our five pillars. Which source, exactly, says that the school "received notice"? (well, OK, it probably received a number of legal notices because it was defaulting on its loans, per the Strother source, but I don't think that's what you meant). I repeat from further up this page: if there is some some significant error or omission of fact that you wish to have corrected, please specify it here, together with the independent reliable sources that support it. A good request might read something like "The date of foundation is incorrect: it was not 1492, but 1942, as shown in the [reliable source], on page [n]". Is there any part of that that is not crystal-clear? If so, I'll be happy to clarify further. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for updating the article. I am familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines around COI editing and promotional content, which is why I am suggesting neutral additions for improving this article based on appropriate sourcing. My goals here are to ensure accuracy and neutrality, identify and address content gaps, and suggest updates. In the "Tags?" section above, I've asked for feedback about which content in particular is problematic, and I am working to have these tags removed. If you have any thoughts to share, I'll try to address your concerns, otherwise I will be back soon to propose additional article improvements for community review. Thanks again! Inkian Jason (talk) 21:40, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding mention of the university's former name to the introduction. Are you able to fix the punctuation? Pinging you as well, since you completed the copy edit. On the off chance either of you are interested, I've submitted a straightforward request below to update the "Notable people" section. Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 16:33, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Already fixed grammar. KGirl  (Wanna chat?) 14:20, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Grammar correction
Hello! I am submitting an edit request on behalf of Full Sail University. Currently, the introduction says: I propose correcting the sentence's grammar by changing to the following, per a previous version of the article:

I do not edit the main space directly, so I'm seeking help from a volunteer contributor using the edit request template.

Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. I also removed the extraneous comma after Full Sail Productions. ElKevbo (talk) 18:39, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2018 (UTC)