Talk:Fullmetal Alchemist/Archive 2

References to 'The Divine Comedy'
I was surprised when I noticed that this article didn't make any references to the Humunculus' being named after the Seven Deadly Sins. In addition, one character is named Dante, possibly after the Italian author of the Divine Comedy, in which part two of the story (taking place in Purgatory) is divided by the seven deadly sins, there are also refrences to it in part one (the inferno). Also, the character Dante lives in the woods (where crutial information regarding the plot is given to Ed), the opening lines to the inferno are as follows: 'Midway upon the journey of our life / I found myself within a forest dark, / For the straightforward pathway had been lost.' [let it be noted that's a horrible, horrible translation and should not be used in a real article]. In addition, the 'Gate of Alchemy' closely resembles that of the 'Gate to Hell' in the story, I'm sure some high-res screen caps will reveal the inscription written by Dante on it. There is also a specific teir of hell devoted to the alchemists, in the story. There are probably some other references to the book in the anime, but those are the most obvious.


 * I am even more surprised that even while knowing you wouldn't just go and update the article by yourself. :P
 * But that was actually good. Discussion is the place to talk off-topic. Article should be just descriptive and link things, not make critical analysis, specially when it's so obvious. ;)
 * --Cacumer 04:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Ed's Alchemy
It seems obvious to me that Ed himself doesn't know about his abillity to perform circleless transmutations until he accidentally uses it to boil water for Glacier. However, 64.12.116.14 keeps changing it to say that Ed doesn't reveal this abillity.

Admitedly, I haven't seen the dub... but it's pretty clear in the Japanese version.


 * I'd revert it, but I don't want to start a stupid Edit War. (Darien Shields 03:56, 16 October 2005 (UTC))


 * Yeah, Shields is right on this one, just re-watch the episode if you can. Jack Cain 04:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems that way in the early episodes, but the truth comes out later when they go see Izumi. Ed is reluctant to have her see him do Alchemy without circles at all. When he does so trying to save the cat, she knows he has seen the gate. He then eventually goes into the big confession (episode 29) about the things that happened at the gate that were not revealed in the early episodes. Until that point, he had not revealed what he had learned at the gate or even that he saw the gate to anyone including Alphonse. That includes both how he was able to do the soul attachment and how he was able to do alchemy without circles. The gate gives the knowledge to do alchemy without circles rather than it being a hidden ability that people discover.


 * Now if you go back and watch the early episodes again, it seems that he only revealed doing alchemy without circles when there was no alternative. Therefore he was hiding it rather than accidentally discovering it. I'm willing to change my mind if someone can come up with a better explaination.


 * "But among other things your going to have to explain how the gate didn't gave him the knowledge to do Alchemy without circles, but did give him the knowledge on how to do a soul attachment. (posted by 64.12.116.134, please don't interject comments in between comments, it disrupts the flow of the conversation &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 22:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC))


 * You bring up a good point- however- I think you may be mistaken. Ed first "reveals" his abillity to perform a transmutation without a circle when he boils water for Glacier, which seems completely accidental at the time. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that there was "no alternative" then- he could have easily drawn a circle on the ground, or just left the water cold, since it wasn't essential. It was just coincidence, that he punched his hands together, that he discovered the abillity, which he used later on in the exam. If he had known about it all along, wouldn't he have tried it on the train in episode 5? There were a lot of times then when there was no-one else around, and he could have performed alchemy much more easily by using the circle-less approach.
 * As for Episode 29, watching it over (subbed), before and after Ed's story, he asks "That's Why, Isn't It?" (after he asks more specifically.) It seems to me that he himself wasn't aware that he'd picked up the circle-less transmutation abillity from the gate, but after a while began to theorise that this was why. The way he uncertainly asks Izumi whether this is the case seems to indicate this to me. (Darien Shields 12:31, 17 October 2005 (UTC))


 * No, I haven't seen the whole series, but saying that he chose to hide his ability doesn't make much sense, considering certain circumstances... why was he so surprised when he did it the first time? In fact, in the English version -- if I remember correctly -- when Al asks him how he did it, he says he doesn't know. The fact that he gained the ability to perform alchemy without a circle by looking beyond the gate does not necessarily mean that he immediately knew how to do it. He could have discovered this skill later on. Of course, I have only seen up to episode 31, so I don't know everything, but given the apparently controversial nature of this subject, we can't just decide that Ed was hiding this ability, unless it is specifically mentioned in the anime. You can't make assumptions... So just go with what we actually know instead of continuing this stupid edit war. --Wikivader 03:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I've had my say and if you guys want to change it back now, I'm not going to object. As far as the subs on episode 29, I dont agree with the interpetation made. As far as Ed's comments to Al early on, Ed never told Al anything about the Gate or how he did the soul transmutation until episode 29 so there is no reason to conclude that he was telling Al the truth about this skill. I dont think the anime is definitive either way on the question.


 * We probably shouldn't even go into so much detail about this particular subject, because it seems like it's just a matter of interpretation. And posting one interpretation of the storyline, either way, wouldn't really be factual information... --Wikivader 19:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, having watched [japanese subtitled] all episodes at least 3 times I think I can fill this one. Ed accidentally/unconsciously uses his "clap power" to heat the water when Glaicer is giving birth. This is the first time he ever used it. He tries to figure out how he did it. He finally learns how to use this skill during his alchemy exam when he has to save someone from a collapsing structure. From then on, he does not "hide" his skill, EXCEPT FOR in the presence of his teacher, for that would give away that he tried to revive his mother and saw The Gate. The mk 555 09:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The whole eds alchemy thing is weird but mk 555 got it right he only tried to hide it from his teacher... i think Al performs alchemy with out a transmutaion circle twice in the anime doesnt he? Scarredmanoftheeast 16:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't help to answer the question, but it is related. In the first episode of the anime, doesn't Edward explain father Cornello's circleless transmutation as part of the philospher's stone's power? For all he knew, couldn't Father Cornello have seen the gate himself. Wouldn't this mean Edward does not know the source of this ability? If this is so, when does he realize that this ability can also be obtained through seeing the gate? What does he think his own ability to perform circleless transmutations roots from?

This should be made noted

I believe it should be noted that in the manga Ed learns how to use Alchemy without circles after seeing the Doors of the Truth. This also explains how he was able to transmute Al's soul onto the suit of armor. Also Edward never tried to hide the fact he could do this from Izumi and he did it during the test to become state alchemist. When he was being tested he clapped his hands because he already knew he had the ability and made a spear and turned it on Bardley. When Ed and Al go to visit Izumi again later she asks to see their progress and Ed does the hand clap alchemy she then realizes that there is only one way to do this and that is by seeing the doors of truth which means he preformed human transmutation.


 * In essence, Ed did not know how to perform alchemy without a circle until he boiled the water when Glacier was about to give birth. Even when he did that, he didn't know how exactly he was able to perform it, just like he told Al. He never felt like hiding it from anyone. Now, during the exam, he felt he needed to do something to save someone from the collapsing structure, so he imitated what he did when he was helping Glacier earlier, and he managed to perform alchemy with no circle again. After that he realized that he was capable of performing circle-less alchemy by clapping his hands, and started to do it. He never hid it from Izumi, since he didn't know the origin of this ability was the sight of the Gate (just achievable by performing human transmutation). We can notice that well when he innocently saved the kitty in front of Izumi, without knowing this act would make she realize he performed an human transmutation before. Actually, he only learned about the origins of this ability after he reunited with Izumi. This means he didn't know he was capable of performing this circle-less transmutations just because he saw the gate when he met Cornello. This is not just my personal opinion, but also the obvious impression let by the anime, and I hope this is enought not to let any doubts. ~Nih 01:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

In the manga, Ed is left traumatized by his experience with human transmutation, and for a very long time he doesn't use alchemy. When he uses it for the first time since the trauma, he does so without a renseijin, and quite conciously. He is even surprised when Al makes a big deal of it, he says "What? You can do this too can't you? You saw... IT... right?" When looking in the eye of the gate, one sees all of truth and reason spread out before you, there is little reason to think that you wouldn't yourself be concious of this. Al doesn't remember his experience with the gate until later in the series when the snake/woman chimera dies inside him. When Ed and Izumi try to remind of what they saw beyond the gate, they find it impossible to express, but they deffinitely KNOW it on some level. They know what they saw, and clearly they also know that seeing IT made them able to perform alchemy sans renseijin. In the anime this isn't the case, and I think that trying to construct a single truth out of two completely different visions of Hagaren is silly. We should say both.

Overhaul
I'm rewriting as much of this as I can manage to clean it up and make it more concise while still being informational. I've seen the entire series (51 episodes and movie) and read all of the manga to date (in Japanese). I'll try to be done by the end of the weekend. --ACDragonMaster 19:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Changes made so far-
 * All the miscellaneous stuff in the beginning is being pruned/rewritten. A lot was redundant or useless, the portions that are relevent will be put in better organized categories.
 * Summary deleted and rewritten- we really don't need a play by play, just something to get people started with the idea of the series.
 * Characters section pruned- even though there are few truly "minor" characters in the series, we don't need that many on the front page. Also, a lot of the notes are better put on the individual character pages, such as some of the name translation notes.  I kept the comment on Bradley's name because that is a very commonly confused thing.
 * Tweaking the layout to make things look pretty.
 * Things to do/in progress-
 * Work more on categories, sort miscellaneous info and maybe add things.
 * Make a seperate article on the manga? I think this would be useful- that way the main article need only address anime canon, and the manga one could explain the different events of the manga...
 * Still lots to do, but making progress here! --ACDragonMaster 22:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, done with rewriting the thing. Yes, I know the manga has been completely ignored, I intend to come back and get a seperate article started for that. --ACDragonMaster 23:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


 * On "taboo" vs "Forbidden Deed"
 * It is explicitly written in English under the Japanese words on page 24 of the Perfect Guide 2, "Human Alchemy, the Forbidden Deed".
 * Taboo implies a social or religious constraint. This is not true for Human Alchemy. Human Alchemy is banned in Amestris by the military. This is mentioned in the manga in various spots. "Forbidden Deed" is the official phrase to refer to Human Alchemy.
 * --165.21.154.117 00:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Could you please show me the kanji used for it? Because probably the kanji litterally mean "forbidden thing", but normally would be translated as "taboo".  The Japanese aren't experts at writing in English.  Also, "taboo" IS used in the English-language version of the series, and seeing as this is the English-language article for it, I think we should use that standard. --ACDragonMaster 03:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Taboo is a questionable translation. Other words should be substituted if possible. The translators needed a word and the grabbed taboo, but I dont think its a good one to use very often.


 * How is it questionable? It is a litteral translation, as far as I recall from reading the Japanese.  Not to mention, 'taboo' is the translation used in both the fansub and the official English versions, and the latter *are* done by professional translators. --ACDragonMaster 02:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, now I did just grab my manga off the shelf and look up the kanji used. Very clearly on the second page of chapter two, it is this kanji.  Do I need to also provide a scan of the kanji to provide more proof, or can we rest this argument here? --ACDragonMaster 02:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The title mentioned in the Perfect Guide 2 is "禁忌の練成、人体練成". Under those words, it is explicitly stated in English as "Human Alchemy, the Forbidden Deed".


 * Knowing the Japanese language, it follows that one shouldn't go around literally translating according to English dictionaries. Jim Breen's online dictionary isn't the comprehensive source. It is better to find out in Japanese what the terms mean.


 * 禁忌の練成 doesn't translate to Alchemy of Taboo (likewise, Hohenheim of Light is an erroneous translation by taking it literally - senseless especially when you consider how Lyra was shocked at Ed calling his father that). The English term given by Hiromu Arakawa is correct in its translation. 禁忌 isn't only referring to Taboo. Since you seem to know Japanese, I refer you to definition of 'kinki'. For those non-conversant, while it suggests taboo as one of the explanations, it also states that the original definition is "an act loathed and forbidden". It doesn't state that it is only due to social stigmata. Japanese society tends to consider illegal acts and taboos as almost one and the same. However western definiton of taboo suggests taboo is more of a social distasteful act.


 * In the story by Hiromu Arakwa, it was explicitly stated that Human Alchemy is forbidden by the military. Regardless, as has been previously discussed and agreed, she is the one who is the final authority on the English terms for Fullmetal Alchemist.


 * Okay, so now we're arguing semantics? I'm game.  Basically, we ARE working with the limitations of translating between two different languages.  However, a proper translation is almost never litteral, but rather interpretive, preserving the meaning of the original. In the Japanese, the way characters react to the idea of human transmutation implies that not only is it illegal, but it's a deplorable act the thought of which makes most people uncomfortable. This is true in both manga and anime, and I could cite examples from either or both.  But anyway, as such, "forbidden" is too limiting a term in English, as it only means litterally that.  "taboo", on the other hand, includes the connotations that something isn't just against the law, but that most people are probably going to recoil at the notion of it.


 * Let's compare, for example, to another felony in Amestris- transmuting gold. This is illegal for obvious reasons- if alchemists kept making gold it would totally undermine the economy for everyone, not to mention seriously threaten the government's control. Therefore, it is highly illegal.  However, if an ordinary person were to hear of an alchemist researching that, they'd probably react in shock due to the audacity, but that's about it.  There might even be a factor of awe.  On the other hand, then, is human transmutation. Why is it illegal?  The risk it poses, maybe? Or because people find it "wrong" and deplorable and thus like murder it's against the law? Whatever the reason, it is.  However, unlike transmuting gold, if the average citizien heard of an alchemist researching human transmutation, they would probably be shocked and likely disgusted as well.  But certainly not admiring the alchemist for it.


 * Now, these are definitely generalizations, but I'm trying to illustrate the difference- transmuting gold is forbidden, but transmuting a human is taboo. "forbidden thing" does NOT cover all the aspects and implications of human transmutation. The guidebook says otherwise?  The guidebook was written by a native Japanese speaker, not a native English speaker.  Arakawa herself has made some inconsistancies in the romanized spelling of character names before, and she's extremely good at that compared to other authors I've read before.  Long story short, the Japanese version is the authority on the Japanese version. When there is an official English translation available, that is the authority on the English version.  Neither is the authority on the other, although if there is for a blatent disrepency in continuity or something, the original takes precedence.  This is not such an error, though, but rather an issue of translation. And generally speaking, the pros who're translating it for an English-speaking audience probably know what they're doing better than the ones inserting random English for a Japanese-speaking audience. --ACDragonMaster 04:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I am surprised to find statements here proposing native language speakers would be better than non-native speakers. I am sure I am not alone in saying that there are many non-native English speakers who speak and write much better English than many native English speakers. There are many cases of native English speakers who cannot even get simple things correct like "on their own" instead of "on there own", differentiate between "it's" and "its", or even spell "separate" correctly instead of "seperate". Unless there is proof that Hiromu Arakawa consistently mispells and types grammar errors all over her pages, it is presumptive to assume her dictated English terms are in error.


 * As for her having some inconsistencies? The only I recall having some sort of inconsistency would be Lin Yao's name being spelt as Ling Yao on one past occasion (Lin Yao is used consistently ever since then). It might not even be a mistake since Xing and Amestris have different languages, and the Amestris officer might be operating on improper assumptions (Arakawa showing how different langauges can be wrongly interpreted). After all, one only look at our own real lives in seeing this, how 'Japan' got to be called that instead of 'Nihon', and the various mangling of Chinese terms and names by the English (which don't even come close to the pronunciations).


 * It is also speculative to conclude that Human Alchemy is following our definition of taboo. Is there any proof that the people of Amestris actively condemn Human Transmutation? Most of their shock at the Elrics' actions seem more in shock of them daring to commit such a crime. Anything about it touching on religious overtones is said by Cornello in a religious town considered as far removed backwaters (they don't even know much of alchemy). What is definitive whether manga or anime, is that we know the army has forbidden some acts of Alchemy. In any case, this is all moot since the newer story overview has a clearer and different description.


 * Now, now, that's just not true. Remember, when Mustang recruited Ed, he specifically said that he can make his human transmutation charges go away? He also forbade Al from participating in the state alchemsit final selection exam because he doesn't want Ed and El to be exposed?

Huh. It really looks like the two of you just have different definitions of the words forbidden and taboo. Let's ask Captain James Cook!

Word History: Among the many discoveries of Captain James Cook was a linguistic one, the term taboo. In a journal entry from 1777, Cook says this word “has a very comprehensive meaning; but, in general, signifies that a thing is forbidden.... When any thing is forbidden to be eat[sic], or made use of, they say, that it is taboo.” Cook was in the Friendly Islands (now Tonga) at the time, so even though similar words occur in other Polynesian languages, the form taboo from Tongan tabu is the one we have borrowed. The Tongans used tabu as an adjective. Cook, besides borrowing the word into English, also made it into a noun referring to the prohibition itself and a verb meaning “to make someone or something taboo.” From its origins in Polynesia the word taboo has traveled as widely as Cook himself and is now used throughout the English-speaking world.

- These words stolen from the venerable dictionary.com

You are both clearly very good at this whole "wiki" thing, but I think your talents are being wasted over what appears from this angle to be a mole hill. Why not write "sometimes translated as taboo or forbidden"? Taking issue with translation is very difficult, mostly because words don't just have one clear and prescribed meaning. I think of taboo as being relatively meaningless, "don't whistle after 6:00pm" and the like are my image of taboo. Forbidden, on the other hand, is a very sexy word! I don't think that human alchemy is something that should be taken lightly, and I certainly don't think it is sexy, so what should I do?

Fano Plane
Fano plane Look familiar? Hackwrench 03:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * So transmutation circles happen to use geometric designs, so what? Coincidence, nothing more. --ACDragonMaster 03:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

But this is part of the central symbol that is in the opening, and alchemy in the show is supposed to be a science. Hackwrench 14:05, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Its a good observation. The geometry and the symbols of the different circles in series have meaning (see Edward's modification of the philsopher's stone array in lab 5), but there isn't anything that can be used to make conclusions about what the meaning might be and it should not go on the main page. I've thought about creating a page on the different transmutation circles in the anime. If such a page is ever created, speculation about the Fano plane could go there.

Even more interesting is the Pentagram often used throughout the series for some of the more darker alchemy. --Johneh

A couple of points to think about--alchemy, historically and semantically, alchemy was considered a branch of 'philosophy'. According to the contemporary diction, the word means science, magic, and what we'd call philosophy all at once. In Goethe's Faust, Dr. Faust refers to the art of conjuring spirits, demons, and the devil "philosophy." The disision between science and magic can be said to be none-existent in the show. -chin, cheng-chuan

Character representation
Does anyone think that the characters are symbolic to various groups in real life?

When you think about it, some of the characters seem to emulate various groups. Take for instance the Homoculli. Could they represent a form of Illuminati, a group of conspirators who cause chaos and discord for their own purpose in which relating to the anime, the desire to become human? Then you have the Ishbal, which is derived from [Ishvara], a Hindu philosophical concept of God. Could the Ishbalans be a representation of the Eastern world which is struggling to find peace with the West? What about the military? Could the military represent the Western world, used as a puppet for the Illuminati that used them to further their agenda by creating the Philosopher's Stone, and critized for policing the world?

There is alot of parallelism in this series that is worthing thinking about.

--Bushido Hacks 06:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The military are a fairly clear representation of, well, the real-world military mindset, which attempts and ultimately fails tragically to offer adequate means for uniting different people with different worldviews so that they may all contribute for a greater and valid cause. I do not see any particular reason to associate the Homunculi with the Illuminati or the Ishbalians with any specific culture or religious concept. Maybe you could offer some more evidence. Luis Dantas 06:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The story is very deep, BUT, I do not believe any characters from the story represent any particular single person or group from real life, living or dead. It is more of an allegory and story of humanity's true nature, etc... The mk 555 09:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Elric Brothers vs. Elric of Melniboné
I was wondering if the surname of the Elric bothers is based on the Elric novels by Fantasy-author Michael Moorcock. Maybe its worth researching.

Greets,

Maverick Hunter 09:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, the Elric of Melnbone articles mentions the Elric brothers from FMA... personally, I've never heard of it. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 20:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Elric is a rather complex character. It is possible to find something relating to him in most any fantasy protagonist.  The most significant resemblances to Edward and Alphonse's family may be their tendency to deal with enchantments with terrible prices.  Also, both varieties of Elrics display an alarming tendency to lose companions to terrible fates. Luis Dantas 23:07, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Indelible Sin
There is a hidden comment on the page that claims


 * DO NOT CHANGE THIS SONG TITLE. INDELIABLE SIN IS THE OFFICAL ENG. TITLE LIKE IT OR NOT. And if you don't like it, use the discussion board DO NOT CHANGE THIS SONG TITLE. INDELIABLE SIN IS THE OFFICAL ENG. TITLE LIKE IT OR NOT. And if you don't like it, use the discussion board.

Where is evidence that "Indeliable" is the official English title? "Indelible sin" gets far more hits on Google than "indeliable sin" (by an entire order of magnitude), and indeed, the top hit for "indeliable sin," at the time of this writing, is this very Wikipedia page. Unless some evidence can be provided that "indeliable" is the official English spelling, I'm changing this. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 14:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The Engish DVDs are the last word in the matter. No matter how many google hits fansubbers and fansub-derived material generate, the titles used on the DVD and other official material is the last word. - anon 25 December 2005


 * I'm not well versed at this at all, but I recall one anon contributor changing both the song name and the comment's name at the same time... this diff (AOL proxy, so no accountability). The change was fine. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 16:03, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * There has been an edit war going on over the song title for a while. The comment was put in to try and persade those with wrong ideas from changing the page. It didn't work as the comment itself started changing back and forth along with the song title. If anyone can explain to me why the english language DVD's are not the source for the official song titles I'll stop changing it. - anon 25 December 2005

Is indeliable even a word??? &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 05:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Spelling mistakes aside, the dispute has been between "indelable sin" and "indeniable sin" with "indelable sin" being used in the engish DVDs and other materials. The spelling mistakes, such as they are, should be corrected. - anon December 26 2005.

I've done some research, and here's what Google says. Note I don't have access to DVD materials, so someone will have to verify that.


 * unerasable sin - 4020 hits
 * indelible sin - 508


 * Well, I actually bought the DVDs and its "indelible" right there on the menu.

In my opinion, even if indelible seen is the "official" name of the song, the original translation is worth mentioning. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 02:48, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The dispute is over the english translation of "Kesenai". The official english translation is and always has been "indelible" because it has the right meaning and its a reasonable english word. Certain early fansubbers used "unerasable" but its difficult to even consider that an english word.
 * The two words actually have about the same meaning but one of them (indelible) is more of a standard english word than "unerasable". I would personally like to see these pages stick to one set of translations for all words (the official releases) rather than include multiple alternate spellings based on fansubs no matter how many people are ignoring the official releases in favor of fansubs.


 * And thus we list it first, and mention unerasable sin as a fansub translation. IMO, if a significant majority of people are ignoring the official releases, for the sake of usefulness (someone googling it or something), we should include both. It is worth noting that the second google hit for indelible sin is this fork of Wikipedia content. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 00:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * For what its worth, the truth about the google hits isn't being presented. You can get google to return almost any result you want depending on how the search is constructed. And that is what was done in this case. if you search strictly on the phrases "indelible sin" and "unerasable sin", you get:
 * unerasable sin - 1400
 * indelible sin - 910
 * So we go from a claim that google finds the fansub title 8-1 over the official title to a barely significant difference. Even these numbers are including hits that should not be counted, but they are still far more honest than any earlier numbers presented.


 * Stupid google. Giving less results when you generalize the query... there is some tomfoolery afoot. Well, lets look at it this way. Making the query more specific for "indelible sin" reduces it by 500, which may imply that half of your cited usage was not relevant to Fullmetal Alchemist (I did a casual scan, and quite a few of the results didn't exist anymore.


 * Just as google trivia, if I use "alchemist" as the qualifier to make it more specific, the counts go to 762 vs. 526. Matching on "full metal" or "fullmetal" brings in other sorts of exccentric google behavior. This is just for illustration as to how unpredictable google has become. I'm done arguging the original point. I can live with the page as-is.


 * However, it does seem that the English DVDs do call it Indelible Sin, so you stand verified). Searching "unerasable sin" without specifying Fullmetal Alchemist gives some pretty irrelevant hits, but giving it another specifier increases the hit count. Even "full metal alchemist" "unerasable sin" gives a higher amount than the ungeneralized query.
 * What this tells us is that we cannot really trust google for a really good metric. While the degree of agreement changes dramatically, one thing is sorta certain (if you choose to believe it): more people use unerasable sin than indelible sin (even if the magnitudes change). It's not as clear as before but even your search agrees that unerasable sin is used more often. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 15:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This is almost funny to see. Most interesting comments have no answers and this one about using "Indelible" or "Indeliable" get so many "hits". Heh. If there's a responsable official person, that would bring to an official answer. Google will always bring at very least the unofficial voice of Internet, specially if conjured with other search engines together. Why does it matter that much being official or not in a place like wikipedia, where the people voice should always speak louder? That's just my opinion, but the right thing to do is just adding a comment that it's arguable, and pointing both sides. After all, this is NPOV. --Cacumer 04:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The voice of the internet is as wrong as often as it is right. The voice of the internet will tell you for example that the series had four seasons and the voice of the internet has poisoned reputable websites with that misinformation. As has been mentioned in the past, google hits are subjective based on how you form the query. They also tend to magnify the misinformation present on english-language fansites. Wikipedia is supposed to deal in facts rather than the "voice of the people". The choice is to either go with the translations used in the released product or to use an inconsistant mix of translations mostly originating with fansubbers. The page is more understandable if one consistant set of translations (from the product people pay for) is used.

This is wikipedia: we must choose a set of words to use consistently, and then include all other published or often used translations as notes. What is this idea that there is a single true word that somehow conquers the enormous problem of translation? All translations are wrong, even romanization is wrong; it's all just lines drawn in the sand. In the absence of real truth, we rely on authority, who drew those lines and what where their credentials? The authority is not "the voice of the internet" it is the voice of published works. Official works!

What to do with the Trading card game section?
I don't think it's false or anything, but it seems highly unencyclopedic, and the expanse of unformatted text just looks plain ugly. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 16:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Reformatting it and moving it to its own article is probably the way to go. I will give it a try. Luis Dantas 18:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks fine. We might have a problem if a deletionist comes along and nominates it for deletion, but for now it should be okay. Needs some wikification though. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 02:41, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

to the other side of the door/beyond the door
Now that whoever wants the fansub translations has gotten their way on "indeliable sin/unerasable sin", they seem to have started on the next item on the list "to the other side of the door" is official while "beyond the door" is fansub. As before, they have changed the title without comment and its likely that any attempt to change it back will simply result in another edit war. Since the tendency is to accomodiate these people, I've added both titles now. - anon January 2, 2006
 * Hey, by the way, you should get a user account. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 22:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I second that. TomStar81 06:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Date on pocket watch


I'm currently watching the anime series and am about halfway done. I saw the episode where it shows the date in his pocket watch as 3 Oct 10. However, I've noticed that there are a lot of reproductions available for sale with the date 3 Oct 11 in it. Is there a difference between the manga and anime or the movie and anime series, or is this just a mistake? --Fuzzball! (talk) 06:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There is lots of pirated and just plain bad reproduction merchandise available with wrong dates plus sometimes spelling mistakes as well. There is one date and its 3 Oct 10.


 * Which episode is it? Also, specific instances of reproductions that have different dates would be helpful too. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 17:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Episode 17 has Winry opening up the watch and discovering the words "Don't forget 3, Oct. 10" Some places selling repoduction watches have that written in them, while most others actually have "Don't forget 3, Oct. 1111" written in them in a different kind of script . --Fuzzball! (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Do we know what the manga says? &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 21:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no clue - I was hoping someone here would enlighten me. --Fuzzball! &#91;&#91;User_talk:Fuzzball!&#124;(talk)]] 22:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll ask a friend of mine. Anyway, this forum thread seems to suggest that the common inscription on the watches is wrong, and 10 is correct. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 23:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The manga has the date "3.OCT.11" which I have taken a photograph of.&mdash; Akoot(Talk) 21:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Haha, that's the cincher. The manga is the dogma, I suppose. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 23:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, if you view Sowelu's "I Will" 4th ending of the Anime, the first image after the scrolling "Fullmetal Alchemist" introduction is of the watch, sitting in a puddle. The date on the watch can clearly be seen, as it's lying open, and even in this instance, the Anime says "Don't Forget 3.Oct.11". -- Anon. 11:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll get a screen of it. We should have some sort of permanent copy of the images... even if it's not on Wikipedia. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 02:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's 3 OCT 11 in the manga, but in the anime, in episode 17, it says 3 OCT 10. Also, about what you saw in the 4th ending: I can't read the date underwater, because the quality is too low.szupie 13:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Episode guide
I'm trying to start a episode guide page for Fullmetal, but people are thinking that i'm trying to start another Episode Name guide. So anyone whose worked on this page for a while, if you could send me a reply A.S.A.P. User: Crimson Alchemist
 * Adding descriptions to the existing list, and then eventually moving them back to the original name of Episodes of Fullmetal Alchemist seems to be the way to go. Don't forget to sign your comments with ~ . &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 21:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

So i will go onto the episode guide and write summaries? If so then thank you for help, but just a question did you see Fullmetal on Saturday? would you be able to tell me about it because i missed it and they don't have re-shows of it anymore? and i don't know how to make those marks for the signature User: Crimson Alchemist
 * I've already seen the whole series via fansubs (and thus I have an entire copy of the series that can be viewed on demand). If you just need someone to write about that episode, I could do it (but I'd need to know which episode it was ;-) If you want to know about the episode, well... I'd still need to know which episode it was. &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 21:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I kind of use Epsidoe guides for almost every episode 1-39. Be cause I can remember "The Scar", and "Holy mother", I missed "His name is Unkown", so if you'd either be able to edit maybe from 2-27, and i could get the rest? But i was wanting to know what happened in "His name is unknown" The one that played this week. Fullmetal Is the one of the best anime ever!! ---Crimson alchemist


 * Before you undertake such a large venture, I must insist you How to edit a page, which explains how to write things in Wikipedia. As you can see on your page, the edit didn't come out looking very nice. &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 22:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Did you edit that page for me? Crimson Alchemist 22:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Crimson Alchemist
 * Not yet. &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 22:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I just ask because the blue box isn't around some of the words like it was yestrday? Crimson Alchemist 22:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)Crimson Alchemist


 * Oh, I edited that. You can figure this sort of stuff out by checking the page history (a tab called history). Don't start section with tabs, because spaces like this:

This is leading spaces


 * Mean that the section should be code (probably not what you intended) &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 22:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Do they already have the fact that Ed and Al's father is the "father" of the humonculus? and would you be able to edit 3 and 4, i for gotto log so sorry about this. Crimson Alchemist

Ed, and possibly Al if he overheard, learn for the first time that Envy was created by their father in episode 50. In and EARLIER episode, the viewing audience is given information that Ed and Al's father made Envy, BUT, unless one were to really pay close attention this fact is normally overlooked as watching the series for the first time the audience does not have enough information to put all the facts together. The mk 555 06:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well after doing some reading i found out that you guy's already have that info about the Elrics father. but i'm thinking of doing an episode summary every Friday, could you tell me if you ever do one? Thanks Crimson Alchemist 22:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Song/Music Title Translations
I've added more songs to the "Other Releases in Music" section. I translated the titles of 時計, そして今日も世界は, and パパと遊ぼう myself, so I'm not sure if I am correct on them. I'm pretty sure I was wrong with the そして今日も世界は one (I thought it means 'And Today too World'...). These songs haven't been translated online yet, so can the people who understand japanese give us the best translations? szupie 01:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, thank you, Aeris of Iniquity, for giving 時計 and パパと遊ぼう a better translation. Now, the only one left is そして今日も世界は.

Story summary verb tenses
I noticed that the story summary uses both past and present verb tenses, making the text an awkward mix of the two. For example (italics added for emphasis):


 * Their attempt costs Alphonse his entire body and Edward his left leg. In a desperate effort to save his brother, Edward sacrificed his right arm to "Affix" his brother's soul to a suit of armor.

The story should be told in one tense or the other. I personally prefer keeping it in the present tense:


 * Their attempt costs Alphonse his entire body and Edward his left leg. In a desperate effort to save his brother, Edward sacrifices his right arm to "Affix" his brother's soul to a suit of armor.

The background information about the parents' prior deaths can remain in past tense, because they did after all occur in the past.

--Tachikoma 03:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Manga chapter guide - Chapter 55
User 67.168.242.235 keeps changing the chapter title to "A Sin is Born anew" or "a Sin is Born Anew". Since I'm very prejudice against people who don't bother to even change the case of letters, it makes me doubt that this user has the correct information. But I'm sure he's at least partially right about the title. In the manga, there is no clearly stated title, but instead, there are 2 lines of text where we would think the title should go. I've been trying to include both the first and second line into the title, but 67.168.242.235 disagrees with me, and thinks it should be only the second line. Could anyone--especially 67.168.242.235--clarify what would be considered the title and what would not? Oh, and 67.168.242.235: Sorry if I offended you in any way... I'm not a stubborn person, so if you can explain to me what you're doing, I'd gladdly accept it if it's right.szupie 13:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Adult Swim intro question
Didn't Adult Swim show a few episodes where the third intro (featuring "Undo" by Cool Joke was used? This is contrary to what's in the article. --Tachikoma 20:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope. Got every episode digital recorded on my cable box and I can vouch for this not being the case. Papacha 04:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

yep he is right they only use "ready steady go", "rewrite" and i think they used "melissa"

[adult swim] did not run "Melissa" or "Undo" at all. "Ready Steady Go" and "Rewrite" were the only ones used. (Yes, this includes the first episode -- "Ready Steady Go" was used as the closing rather than the opening.) The DVDs do include the correct songs, however.

RiKkU_DA_THieF;; Keke.. Read Through This..Just wondering if you guys know this! In the japanese (streaming television version..thing..xD) They use 4 different opening and closing themes. In the AMERICAN streaming..it's only limited to one.. or so i was told. 'Melissa' and 'Kesenai Tsumi'. Although in Australian Cable.. (Foxtel is running it i think..) I think they have all..i would have to ask my friends who are lucky enough to have cable kekeke...But In America..if you buy the dvd it has all four opening/closing. Just thought I'd input that..^^ Cheers!

Please expand "Story"
The "Story" section is incomplete as it only tells the beginning of the story. In my opinion, the summary of the whole story should be included. --210.0.198.76 10:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The "Story" section took its current form after a number of alternatives were tried. A full summary is not presented on this page because it would break the policy on spoilers on this page. Also, the extensive story section always degenerated into an episode guide over time. Now that there is an episode guide page, there is even less reason to do a long summary on this page. 69.144.103.34 09:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Summary of the whole series? That would be unnecessary, I think. The story section on this article is just an introduction to the series. There is another page, however, with summaries of every episode, so it should cover the whole story, eventually... once people add summaries of the last few episodes, that is. If we tried to include the whole story on the main Fullmetal Alchemist article, it would get way too big. --Wikivader 23:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree with Wikivader. If you want summary of the manga story, well, be bold and create a Chapters of Fullmetal Alchemist page. &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 23:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

DVD Information
I've listed some info on the English DVDs. (Titles, the episodes they contain, etc.) I don't know much about the DVD info for other regions, so other people will have to chip in, if I missed anything important. (Since this is the English section of Wikipedia, listing detailed information about anything other than the original Japanese and the English translation is probably unnecessary.)

I already mentioned in the article that MVM has only released five volumes in the UK. But all the other Funimation info (titles, episode numbers) should still apply. We might, however, need another list for the Japanese DVDs, because the titles are probably different, and I think they also contain different episodes. (According to one website I saw, the Japanese Volume 1 contains two episodes, not four.)

And one last thing -- in case anyone's wondering about the capitalization in the titles I listed, I am quite sure that it's correct. On both the DVD boxes AND the official Fullmetal Alchemist website, the word "the" in volumes 1, 4, and 5 is NOT capitalized, even though it is the first word. --Wikivader 19:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Episode guide
Do we really need a complete episode list (even though we have an episode guide article)? If we do, do we really need it to be a single columned list? Multiple columns would be more compact. --maru (talk) contribs 01:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I tried to compact it, but then the numbers got messed up. I don't think that list should stay, it wasn't there during the "Anime Collaboration of the Week" event. When the article, Episodes of Fullmetal Alchemist was created, the list was deleted on the FMA page. Lord Falcon 01:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

"toka koka"?
Anyone can tell me how in the hell I could write that title in english correctly? That's the closest I could get to the name they say, in japanese, in the anime, about the Equivalent Exchange rule. toka koka? --Cacumer 03:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's tōka kōkan, or touka koukan. szupie 15:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Anime and manga differences
Do you think somewhere in the article that it should point out the significant and minor differences between the manga and the anime? I've been keeping track of the manga up through Volume 7 and have already found about twenty differences to the anime. It should also be mentioned that the anime's episodes 3-12 are all a compilation of flashbacks, while the manga had bits and parts. Plus, the anime was extended with characters such as Psiren. Please go on my Talk Page to give me an answer. Barfing RabbitBarfing Rabbit 02:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC) 3/15/06
 * The anime and manga totally diverge in later storylines. The basic premise, however, is the same. I don't think that information is necessary on this page (but the character pages have lots of answers). 67.85.62.196 02:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Main Character(s): Separate bios?
Do you think some characters should have their own articles? I think Ed needs his own article the most. Barfing Rabbit 3/15/06


 * Perhaps, but if one goes, the rest of them probably should go to (and we abolish the main characters page). &mdash; Edward Z. Yang <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 19:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

edwardelric.com
I run Edwardelric.com, which contains a complete episode guide, an assortment of trivia and other information. Does anyone mind if I add it to the links at the bottom of this article? --Jonathan Drain 23:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like a pretty nice site to me. I know I wouldn't revert it. --maru  (talk)  contribs 06:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Improvement
Couldn’t someone put a nice big picture next to the TOC or at the top to make the article look more professional or at least to make better use of space. Tbsw 08:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The infobox extends too far down. I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're requesting. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 19:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn’t matter it was probably just a screen size issue.Tbsw 08:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Character section
I don't understand why Greed doesn't have a little summary, when even Gluttony does. I think that if you're going to include all of them, you mind as well include Greed and Wrath. 128.6.175.86 20:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, we do include all of the homunculi on Homunculi of Fullmetal Alchemist. The summaries for Greed and Wrath are not included because they do not appear until later in the series. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 19:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

False Information
Really who posted these? * Volume 01: The Begining of the story(Ep. 1-4) * Volume 02: Scarred Lesbian of the West(Ep. 5-8) * Volume 03: Death of Mustang (Ep. 9-12) * Volume 04: The Fall of Jesus (Ep. 13-16) * Volume 05: The Cost of Giving: Gay Pride (Ep. 17-20) * Volume 06: Captured Homos (Ep. 21-24) * Volume 07: Reunion on Cock Island (Ep. 25-28) * Volume 08: The Altar of Chuck Norris (Ep. 29-32) * Volume 09: Pain and Your mom (Ep. 33-36) * Volume 10: Journey To Heaven (Ep. 37-40) * Volume 11: Becoming The Holy: Ed Marries the Tree (Ep. 41-44) * Volume 12: Sacrifice (Ep. 45-48) * Volume 13: Death of Jesus (Ep. 49-51) Can anyone get the real information in there?


 * It's clearly vandalism. I'll look into it. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 19:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who put it there, but I fixed it.

Split Article
The chapter guide is too much of a detailed good part of the article and looks clumsy. I propose splitting it into a separate list article to improve the general style of the main article. Deryck C. 08:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I wonder why this wasn't done already, the episodes have their own article. Lord Falcon 00:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I second. Be bold. &mdash; Ambush Commander <sup style="font-family:serif;">(Talk) 00:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

It should be similiar to the episode guide. I list alone will not work. Lord Falcon 01:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)