Talk:Fumimaro Konoe

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2019 and 15 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Frankiecc.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Offices
??? 1st paragraph: ... served as the 34th, 38th and 39th Prime Minister of Japan ... picture: 23rd Prime Minister of Japan ???

Cleanup
I added to this page because large sections of it seem to be poorly translated.--Kewp (t) 08:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

About "Prince"
I think he is not "Prince". Konoe family is noble, but only Imperial Family must be called "Prince".14:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not true. All cadet branches of the Imperial family oke had the title of "Prince" as well as certain members of the Kazoku nobility with the rank of koshaku. "Prince Konoe Fumimaro" is perfectly correct. MChew
 * I agree with MChew, actually this article should be called Prince Konoe Fumimaro. Should we rename it? Gryffindor  20:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

WPMILHIST Assessment
This article needs some serious wikification. In addition, I am getting a bit tired of seeing the Fascism Project banner on all of these Japanese pages. Were the Japanese truly "fascist" according to the German/Italian model? Or were they simply nationalistic, militaristic, and imperialistic in their own uniquely Japanese way? For that matter, were they nationalistic, militaristic, and imperialistic in a way not all that different from the imperialistic nations of the Age of Imperialism which was only just then coming to an end? LordAmeth 02:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It depends upon how you define 'fascism' and wielding such terms irresponsibly has led to historical catastrophes.

There is no doubt there were people who wanted Japan to become a fascist dictatorship like Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy, but they never gained power and each time they tried a coup, they were soundly put down. So I also have serious qualms about using the term 'fascism' to describe pre-1945 Japan.Befuddler (talk) 02:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * While not following the same lines of the fascism of Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy, history has determined in just about any historical work that Japan during the 1930-45 period does follow under 'fascism' - it was nationalistic, it was racist in its actions via the IJA, it was militaristic and expansionist, and it had a "strong man" (symbol) in the emperor, even if that image was controlled and manipulated by the war cabinet.HammerFilmFan (talk) 18:46, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that's pretty much the whole problem of using the word "fascism" in the first place. It tends to be almost meaningless in and of itself. Frankly, it really isn't much of an "ism" to begin with. Many different regimes have been labeled fascist over the years, and while they have certain things in common, there is nothing coherently or specifically "fascistic" about them. You mention racism as a criteria, but there is nothing inherently racist about fascism because there is nothing necessarily inherent to fascism at all. As far as history determining that Japan was, indeed, fascist, that is very much an arguable position.--172.130.12.77 (talk) 05:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ^ Incorrect in all details, IP. Hammer was right.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.51.247 (talk) 06:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

About war crimes
"he came under suspicion of war crimes, in which he faced almost certain conviction and execution by hanging"

One might not understand from the article what war crimes are implied here. I think it should be mentioned which crimes Fumimaro Konoye is responsible for because there isn't a word about it in a present version.

--- I don't belive there is a basis for the following statement "he faced almost certain conviction and execution by hanging"

Following is a quote from an autobiogrphical account of Robert A. Fearey who was one of the staff responsible for compiling the list of Class A war criminals:

URL: http://www.connectedcommunities.net/robertfearey/pacific_war.htm


 * ''In mid-November Atcheson called me into his office to say that he had just had a call from General MacArthur complaining that although a number of major "Class A" war criminals had been arrested and were in jail, he wanted an additional list of such "Class A" war criminals on his desk within, as I recall, 24 hours, so that he could immediately order them arrested.

''Atcheson said that since I had drafted the not yet officially received war criminals directives, I was the logical one to compile the requested list. I said that my work had concerned the arrest, trial and punishment of Japanese war criminals of all the various "Classes," but that it had not extended to which individual Japanese were guilty of war crimes. Nevertheless I said that I thought I could obtain the help I needed to compile the requested list. Italic text''

''I thereupon called Herbert Norman, a Canadian, a leading Japan scholar and a friend from pre-war days, who was attached to General MacArthur's headquarters in an intelligence capacity. With his long experience in Japan and language fluency, I knew that Norman would be able to add much to my knowledge of who the major Japanese war criminals were. Together that evening at the Dai Ichi Hotel where we were both billeted we drew up a proposed list, with a brief statement of our reasons for each name. I handed it to Atcheson in the morning, he had it delivered at once to General MacArthur, and banner headlines a day or two later announced that all had been arrested.'' ''Some time later MacArthur called Atcheson to say that he was sure there were more Japanese major war criminals, and that he wanted a second list. I met again with Norman, who this time argued strongly that Konoye should be included because of the positions of highest responsibility which he had occupied over most of the pre-Pearl Harbor decade, including when Japan attacked China in 1937. In compiling the first list I had resisted Norman's view that Konoye should be included, arguing that he had never been an active protagonist of Japan's aggressive course but rather, as an inherently somewhat weak and indecisive man, had allowed himself to be used by aggressive elements. And he had seen the light in 1941 and done his utmost, at the risk of his life, to reverse Japan's military course, through his plan for the meeting with President Roosevelt. Norman said that he appreciated these points, but that we could not omit from our list someone who had held the positions which Konoye had held and who possessed the intimate knowledge of the Japanese pre-war decision process and of critical top-level pre-war meetings which he did. His status would be less that of a major war crimes suspect than of a material witness. And so we agreed to include Konoye in the second list. But we also agreed that if he were arrested, we would get word to him of the special circumstances attending his arrest. With his far more extensive Japanese contacts than mine, Norman undertook to find someone who would convey this message.


 * I am not sure why he was only suspected of war crimes when he didn't agree with the policies of American occupation authorities. That sounds like a set up to me.203.184.41.226 (talk) 05:39, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Impressively Unbiased
I take it back editing COMPLETELY BIASED LIES; Befuddler Sad proof one cannot rely on Wikipedia for any facts. The ORIGINAL piece i remarked upon as being 'impressively unbiased' IS ALL GONE, the person(congratulating him/herself here as if different contributer) COMPLETE LIES AND BIAS.

PRINCE Fumimaro Konoye was called the 'peace Prime Minister' instead. Constantly against Imperialism, it was not he who made the 21 Demands, but Tojo. It was not he who appointed the rogue Foreign Minister Matsuoka, it was Konoye who literally resigned with his ENTIRE PEACE CABINENT in support just to get rid of Matsukoka. It was he who ALWAYS advised the Emperor against War, not just including China, but citing The Father of China's wish in 1924 speeches Shanghai and Tokyo Sun Yet Sen, instructor of both KMT Chiang and CCP Mao, called the father of modern republican China, that it was absolutely necessary for Japan and China to ally together, not only diplomatically, trade but militarily, the source of Konoye's opposition to Imperialism, "The Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere".

I could write up all the original citings of this article back when i agreed with the original article, but obviously it will make no difference. Some agenda idiot will just sign on and revise without checked sources THE VERY LIES THAT ARE PERFUSE IN THIS DOCUMENT SINCE REWRITTEN BY A LIAR.

IF ANYONE READS THIS, JUST REALIZE TWO THINGS, MY QUOTED 'CONGRATULATION' WAS WRITTEN FOR THE 'ORIGINAL' ARTICLE, NOT THIS PIECE OF BS. AND THAT EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THESE ARTICLES TODAY IS NOTHING BUT LIES, it's just so sad South Park has more legitimacy and fact checking than wikipedia.

For years, based upon my back-ground, I had wanted to believe and even learn to prove that the Japanese were totally responsible for ww2 and all, but the more I studied, especially since the more recent authors' works on more released secrecy act documents, that, as you point out, it was definately not so black and white and clear cut.

So I applaud your article as one of the extremely few unbiased English articles on anything Japanese regarding the era.

I might even ask you to point out even more, say highlight it more, that we knew what Konoe was going to propose(since one of the codes we broke were the diplomatic codes) and we knew that by refusing a face to face 'plea' if you like, what that would do to the moderate cause back in Japan. I think it important to make it more evident that it was we who refused that last chance, not him or his gov't.

I might also point out that, from the start, Konoe only proposed Japan's membership into the Tripartite Pact not only to improve relations with Russia, but also that he was always intending to offer it up in negotiations with the Americans to give it up as a concession to increase chances of peace with us.

I believe it was page 1123 of The Oxford Companion to WWII under the Konoe biography, or maybe it was the Tripartite Pact explanation itself, sorry, can't remember, please check at library or if you have the ww2 encyclopedia...that because of secret agreements requested by the Japanese, the Germans and Italians knew that the Japanese considered it a bargaining chip only from the start, not as anything more concrete.

It is to our shame that all the world who can read English see how hypocritical we were and are. How we're for War Crime Trials as long as our people are immune. And how we even tried those who we knew were trying to prevent war or genocides as if they were Hitler's and Goebbel's themselves.

It does nothing for global respect for us to continue this hypocrisy and lies.

'''So I am all the more impressed with your article here. It is the least anti-Japanese biased report on history I've seen on wikipedia here. Congrats to you.'''

I'd say Kudos, but I am still trying to find out for some students where the word 'kudos' or 'cudos' actually comes from or means lol. Anyone? Befuddler (talk) 02:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hopefully you meant responsible for the Asian side of WW2 - and the world has made its judgement that Japanese militarism/nationalism/expansionism, beginning with its attacks on China and the democracies of the world trying to contain these brutal actions, was responsible for the war in the Pacific. How many Reliable Sources should I cite to this effect?  There are thousands.  The rest of your personal diatribe is just so much WP:NOTASOAPBOX and WP:NOTAFORUM violations. HammerFilmFan (talk) 18:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Konoe was a leading right-wing nationalist, almost a fascist in his politics. This article says nothing at present about the way in which Konoe as an prince from one of Japan's most famous aristocratic families and a cousin of the emperor was the patron of the Japanese far-right in the early 1930s. Konoe was a man who looked impressive, but who lacked the inner toughness to see matters though. He was the one who chose to escalate the war in early 1938 by making demands that he knew the Chinese would never accept. And when the expected victory didn't appear, he just resigned rather take responsibility for escalating a war that Japan couldn't win. It is true that he did work for avoid a war with the US in 1941, but it must be remembered that he was the one who in fact caused the crisis with the Americans in the first place. In September 1940, Japan occupied northern French Indochina. The Americans protested, saying they regarded this as an extremely unfriendly act, and warned Konoe not to go into southern French Indochina, saying they would embargo oil sales if he did. In July 1941, Konoe ordered the Japanese into southern French Indochina. The Americans in response to the latter act imposed the oil embargo on Japan just as they said they would, which led ultimately to the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941. It was only after Konoe caused the crisis by moving Japanese troops into southern French Indochina (that was his decision, not the Army's as the article at present is trying to make out) that he really thought about the full ramifications of war with the United States, and decided that maybe that wasn't such a good idea after all. Maybe he should thought about that first before he decided to go into Vietnam. The article would benefit from noting that.--A.S. Brown (talk) 20:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Why is he listed as Fumimaro Konoe...?
...When his Japanese name was Konoe Fumimaro? His father, Konoe Atsumaro, is not listed as Atsumaro Konoe, after all.

League of Diet Members Supporting the Prosecution of the Holy War
The article currently contains the following text, One of his first moves was to launch the League of Diet Members Supporting the Prosecution of the Holy War to counter opposition from politicians such as deputy Saitō Takao, who had spoken against the Second Sino-Japanese War in the Diet on 2 February., which is sourced to https://www.pacificatrocities.org/blog/5-unknown-facts-of-prince-konoe. Questions of reliability aside, the source does not appear to support this text - it does not mention the LoDMStPotHW at all. The sources referenced at League of Diet Members Supporting the Prosecution of the Holy War also do not support this text. Finally, the Japanese wikipedia version, 聖戦貫徹議員連盟, doesn't support Konoe as the founder either. I will remove this text as failing verification. - Ryk72 talk 23:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Spelling
The words "emperor" and "prince" are sometimes spelled with lowercase e/p and other times with capital E/P. Is there a reason for that? I'm not a native English speaker so I can't tell which spelling would be correct. The inconsistency in spelling just stood out to me. Maybe someone could check it. Nakonana (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)