Talk:Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Goldsztajn (talk · contribs) 10:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Parking this here for the review.--Goldsztajn (talk) 10:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Nominator responses
Leaving for discussion of the the review.--Goldsztajn (talk) 15:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti and Abubakar Tafawa Balewa.gif, first Prime Minister of Nigeria]]I've added an image to Commons of Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti with Abubakar Tafawa Balewa which might be useful for the article.--Goldsztajn (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Family Ransome Kuti c1940.jpg a better quality photo of the Ransome-Kuti family portrait.--Goldsztajn (talk) 07:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Updated the reviewed in light of nominator changes.--Goldsztajn (talk) 06:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi -- thanks for your patience. :-) I'm juggling a few different things this week. Right now, I'm waiting for some free time to properly check out that Meyers source and see if I can further expand on any of the topics you mentioned. Also: I may need some more advice on what to do about the chieftancy/aristocracy items in the lead. Your point about avoiding undue emphasis makes total sense. Lots of sources (especially Nigerian ones) refer to Ransome-Kuti as "Chief" or "traditional aristocrat", but it took me forever to find any info/sourcing for her chieftancy position (definitely appointed), and it doesn't seem to have been a major part of her life. However, I also had a discussion with a Nigerian editor some time ago who argued that including the Nigerian prenominal "Chief" was just as valid as including the British "Sir" or "Dame" (etc), and that made sense to me too. What if I removed "traditional aristocrat" but kept the prenominal (perhaps re-linked to "Oloye")? Alternatively, do you have any suggestions or resources re: Nigerian titles that could help me figure out the appropriate solution? I don't have a lot of background knowledge on how honorary titles work (either Nigerian or British). Alanna the Brave (talk) 15:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi - in terms of new material, nothing in the article needs expanding to pass GA from my point of view, I just highlighted a few points I thought might be expanded upon.  In terms of her status as a Chief, I'm less worried about including it (or not) than about highlighting the aristocratic system in the lead and calling her a traditional aristocrat in the first paragraph. As an appointed member of the Western House of Chiefs, if I understand things correctly, she would have been considered Oloye/Ijoya.  What do you think of the idea of not linking in the lead and just having Chief Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti and in the infobox the prenominal "Chief" that links to Oloye? I did come across a source which indicated the title of Oloye for those sitting in the House of Chiefs who were not higher status...let me dig that out. --Goldsztajn (talk) 07:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable -- feel free to pass on the Oloye source if you find it, but I've made the changes. As another note re: manual of style issues, I've removed all citations in the lead but one (it's technically there for a direct quote). I have to focus on a non-Wiki project tomorrow, but I'll be back on Monday to finish up this review! Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Have a look at this (link should take you to page 38) - I think it is relatively clear in that it identifies Ransome-Kuti as acquiring the title through appointment to the Western House of Chiefs. Interestingly, reading between the lines in Sklar (1963 p.238), it would suggest she was the only person in the entire House not aligned to the Action Group.--Goldsztajn (talk) 16:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * -- that's interesting about the political affiliations within the House of Chiefs! It's certainly plausible that Ransome-Kuti was the chief in question (it's unfortunate the source doesn't name names). I've added two new quotes to the article (reflections on communism and class differences/privilege), plus a bit of legacy/influence content from the Adam Mayer source -- see what you think. I like the quote about her religious views, but I'm not sure where that could be comfortably placed within the article's structure right now. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi - changes look excellent! I think the religion quote can be incorporated at a later stage, it fills out the perspective on her, but does not fundamentally change any aspect (which for me would be a criteria to include it now). Two quick questions and that's it. The source for the Western House of Chiefs appointment and the Oloye title, what do you think of replacing the source with this one: Pan-Africanism: Political Philosophy and Socio-Economic Anthropology for African Liberation and Governance p. 803? My concern is that some of the material from the ontribemag.com source looks like it has its origin in this article; it also incorrectly states she was elected to the Western House of Chiefs, when it was an appointed position. What do you think of the rephrasing the paragrpah along these lines: During the 1950s, Ransome-Kuti was granted the chieftaincy title of Oloye of the Yoruba people, due to her appointment to the Western House of Chiefs. She was the first woman in that House and one of only a handful of women to sit in the Nigerian Houses of Chiefs during their existence. She also served as a board member for the Nigerian Union of Teachers. ? Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 18:55, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I would definitely support finding a stronger source than the OneTribeMag article, but I'm not sure about that Pan-Africanism book: the pages 803/804 quote a Nigerian National News service article from 2011 as the source material for info about Ransome-Kuti's House of Chiefs appointment, but the wording of the news service quote seemed very familiar to me -- it appears to be copied and pasted directly from the 18 December 2010 version of the Wikipedia article. Did you want to take some time (say 48 hours) and see if either of us can locate any other sources, or are you okay with leaving the OneTribeMag source for now? Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:26, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a frustratingly difficult issue to nail down! What's somewhat surprising is that it does not seem to come up in the Johnson-Odim/Mba biography (although I only have access to what is available via Google books, which is not the full text). These two sources give clear descriptions that the positions in the Western House of Chiefs were appointed:p.37 p.30; The Historical Dictionary indicates the Western House of Chiefs existed from 1952 until 1966; this indicates she was a member in the early 1950s p.25.  I'm in two minds about the Pan-African text, the point you raise is correct, although in its defense it does indicate it is quoting the Nigerian National News Service ...and the only text that is relevant for the citation is the last sentence in the top paragraph of p. 803: She was also the first woman to hold a seat in the Western House of Chiefs of Nigeria as an “Oloye” of the Yoruba people. ... which is not part of the quoted, italicised text.  Let me know what you think. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Alrighty -- I'm still not convinced about the Pan-African text, but I don't think we're going to find anything stronger online at this point (it's definitely a frustrating research point), so I'll concede on this one. I've re-written/re-cited the paragraph minus the OneTribeMag source. Let me know if you think it works or if it needs anything else. :-) Also, I wanted to say thank you for finding and uploading those new/improved photos of Ransome-Kuti at the beginning of this review -- I think they're a great addition. Alanna the Brave (talk) 14:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong, I'm not satisfied by it either...I guess I feel it is just less bad. However, the onetribe piece you found has two excellent photos at the bottom (which everywhere else I've seen are in much poorer quality), am trying to get a better sense of the date of them (they appear to be late 50s/early 60s) so they can be uploaded. Everything looks great, thanks for responding quickly to me (I have a higher standard to achieve now!) and for your work in bringing this to GA. If at some point you feel like bringing this to FA, ping me, would be happy to assist. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 07:50, 20 June 2020 (UTC)