Talk:Futures studies/Archive 2

Futurism vs. Futurology
Futurism redirects here, to Futurology. I think it probably should not do so - Futurism is also an established term for a movement in modern art. Futurism was popular in the 1930s and 40s in Europe, especially in Italy and other countries that had significant fascist movements; it is associated with fascism. I think, especially considering that the use of the term futurism in the non-art sense is admittedly rather tentative, a disambiguation page would be in order for futurism, but not futurology. The disambiguation could link to futurology, in that case.

Incoming!
According to PR Web, this article and its colleagues in other languages will shortly be the target of what appears to be a collaborative attempt at improvement. In no official capacity whatsoever, it's good to see stuff like this happening and I wish them luck. --Kizor 08:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The World Futures Studies Federation Wiki Raid
Hi. Yes indeed the World Futures Studies Federation is making its contribution to the global Wiki by a organised process of populating the Wiki with accurate information regarding the emerging field of Future Studies on 31 October 2005. Those contributing are members of the World Futures Studies Federation. The Australians are starting the process. Phayward 21:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Just added a link to a new page explaining the term Strategic Foresight and giving some references to some source material Phayward 21:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Added another link to Integral Futures Phayward 22:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

WFSF & FS Community "futurology" update
Hi everyone,

Wendy Schultz jetted out of Honolulu this morning at sunrise on her way back to Oxford and left us the outline to begin the work of fleshing out the Wikipedia futures studies and social foresight entries. The History section is all hers, I just uploaded it... I slightly rearranged the content on the main page but did NOT make any substantial changes--not to offend anyone or step on the earlier authors. The outline itself is in no particular order, but you should be able to see easily what needs attention. Someone with good perspective might want to reorder the headings...

We obviously could benefit from translation to languages other than English.

As the page expands, it would make sense to create/set out discrete articles. Long entries SHOULD probably be created as separate pages -- as Peter Hayward has already done. Thanks to Jose and others whose fingerprints are already visible here.

Let the Halloween Raid begin!

Chris Jones (jones@wfsf.org) Outgoing Secretary General WFSF and former Visiting Associate Professor, University of Houston-Clear Lake


 * Hi Chris. Nice to see you participating here. I tried to send WFSF an email last week but I was a bit lazy! Could you have a look at World Futures Studies Federation article? Cheers -- Svest 23:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

futures programs list
I've added the list of the full futures studies programs, but still need to add in web links for each one. There are web links for about 70% of the courses. I will also add info for the smaller programs, but many of these don't have links.

Also Jim Dator asked Wendy and myself to change the heading for this page from 'future studies' to 'futures studies' for obvious reasons. The previous people working on this page used something like a 'google test' to make their judgement.

Thanks Jose

The layout of the article
Great job. However, the article looks like a mess. I've put the template {attention} for the same reason. We have to organize sections according to their importance and follow the guidelines according to Manual of style. Cheers -- Svest 01:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;
 * Okay, that was the reason for putting the attention sign. Sorry for removing it - I'll replace Ligtvoet 09:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for the mess... we are just learning, and there are a lot of us. We will study the Manual of Style, and hope to create the usual state of Wikipedia layout as an emergent property of our group learning. Really. wendyif 23:22, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

programs and web links
I've added a few masters programs in futures studies. In terms of layout, what made most sense was

1) to make a page for each program, so they (program directors / students / affiliates) could edit it themselves, and

2) add a web link to the program

however only about 50% of the web links are operative, so I'll have to clean this up tonight.

Jose


 * Hola Jose. Could you please use the 4 ~ in order to have your signature and the time stamp? Cheers -- Svest 01:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

Suggested change to the Introduction
Hi Folks Riel here. I want to put this up for discussion before making an edit because it is the opening paragraph and I suspect that we may have differing views on this. I would prefer the first paragraph to read:

"Future Studies is about trying to understand the potential of the present in the future. Future Studies is a broad field of inquiry that includes many ways of thinking about and portraying what the present could become. One of the key distinguishing attributes (epistemological starting points) of Futures Studies has been the on-going effort to distinguish possible, probable and preferred futures. Most work in Futures Studies falls either into one of these three different categories or is about the relationships amongst these three categories. Like historical studies that try to explain why and what happened in the past the efforts of Future Studies to understand the potential of the present requires the development of theories of present conditions and how conditions might change. For this task Futures Studies uses a wide range of theoretical models and practical methods, many of which come from other disciplines including economics, sociology, history, engineering, mathematics, psychology, physics, biology, theology, and more. What usually distinguishes Future Studies from the research conducted by these other disciplines (although all disciplines overlap, to differing degrees) is twofold. First Future Studies often examines not only probable but also the possible and preferable futures. Second Future Studies typically attempts to gain more a holistic view based on insights from a range of different disciplines. As the following pages that present the history of Futures Studies and the work of its many branches demonstrate, Futures Studies is cross-cutting, diverse and emergent."

A very brief commentary on what I hope this paragraph achieves. I think an introductory paragraph should be as neutral and open as possible - meaning that in the introduction we should try our best to not privilege methods such as "extrapolation" (which is just one method) or goals such as the normative role of "helping people create the futures they most desire" (which is just one function of FS). I may not have hit the nail on the head, but I think it is closer to a “neutral” introduction than the existing text. By the way this is not meant as a criticism of Wendy’s definition, which I’m familiar with and is very useful, particularly as a launch pad for this “raid” process. Thanks Wendy!!! --Rielm 14:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Thierry Gaudin
For milleniums, there has been a demand for predictions of the future. The practices built to answer these demands have been deeply rooted in the cultures of the different civilizations. For instance : The Yi-King in China ; The geomantics in Africa and in the arab world ; The divination in ancient Greece. Contemporary practices usually refer to a scientific base, although ancient ones, like astrology, are still quite successfull at a popular level. Anyhow, Science faces practical difficulties in its attemps to modelize the future. For instance, the models built to foresee the greenhouse effect mobilize the biggest computers and are still quite uncertain in their conclusions, due to the complexity of the question. When human factors are at stake, the level of complexity is still higher. Therefore, the answers given by Science, though progressing slowly, are in most cases unable to fullfill the demand for predictions. In order to present a credible offer matching the eternal demand for visions of the future, consultants and university researchers have built methods. This appears as and adjustment to the beliefs of our time. If we cannot have results from Science, let us built a method ! Descartes initiated the word "method" to describe the path to develop science, therefore if we have a method, we have a more powerful tool than science, haven't we ? One can easily see that the logic underlying such an attitude is not very solid, but it works : you can sell it to companies or governments. More precisely, most so called "methods" are inspired by group dynamics and creativity techniques, which operate a sort of massage leaving the client satisfied. It may also be mixed with computer iteration of matrix, introducing a slight dose of science magics, even if the basic data are only fuzzy feelings. In that case, the work might be described by the well known formula : "garbage in, gospel out". Thierry Gaudin, http://gaudin.org

Adding some details to Alternative Possible Futures
Hi everyone! First let me say that this is a good initiative Wendy. I have added some details under the title Alternative Possible Futures where I elaborated on the idea of alternative futures a little. I brought in scenarios and some detail about trends. The source of this information can be found at http://www.framtidsbygget.se/center/signs/sign1.htm

I can translate selected pieces of what we are writing here to Swedish, but when I looked for a Wikipeda in Swedish I did not find one. If any one knows more about this, I will be glad to get a group here to build the Swedish pages on the subject of "framtidsstudier". Natalie, Visionscentret Framtidsbygget.83.226.118.136 14:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Framtidsstudier should take you to the Swedish article. Best of luck!  &#8227; &#5339;&#5505;  [[Image:Venus symbol (blue).gif|&#9792;]] [ &#5200; ] 15:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I edited my information on trends to make it more readable! I also added a link to Visionscentret Framtidsbygget. Three of us are working on the Swedish pages,learning as we go and translating what we like from what is already done in English. No use inventing the wheel. Our purpose is to present Futures Studies to Sweds and raise their consciousness.

New entry on foresight
Hi everyone,

I have just added the term "foresight" (to the starting page, where all the alternative terms like futurism etc are listed), as well as a sub-page explaning the term. At least I hope I have - should have spent more time in the sandbox.

The sub-page is a problem to me, as it's called a disambiguation page and I am not really sure how to deal with that. In case one of you is a Widipedia wizard, please do have a look, any help is appreciated.

But great to see this is progressing.

Best regards from Germany,

Cornelia Daheim


 * Hi Cornelia! I think I've fixed your problems now, by moving your text to Foresight (future studies). Please check to see if it looks okey to you. Regards, --Boivie 15:50, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Boivie, and many thanks! That's just perfect. A good first wikipedia experience, thanks fpr such great and quick help! CorneliaDaheim 16:05, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Cornelia. I haven't seen anything about "Z punkt GmbH Büro für Zukunftsgestaltung" in the article. -- Svest 22:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

How many people are participating in this fatal raid?!
Hi guys. I am amazed by this raid!!! Where have you been before?! What I can do here to help is categorizing, copy editing, wikifying and creating a template to be used in all Futures article (well, all the dirty work!). The rest is yours (I am not an accomplice!) -- Svest 22:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

Over two dozen people are participating. We know we're creating a bit of a mess at the moment, but we will work to clean it up over the next few days: we just wanted to build momentum to get a lot of material online that reflects the fact that FutureS Studies -- with an S at the end of Future -- has been an academic discipline and a professional practice for almost half a century now.

Why "fatal"? It's meant to be a rejuvenation of the topic.

Big question: how do we change the header to "Futures Studies," which is the actual name of the field (not "Future Studies").

Thanks to everyone at Wikipedia for their patience and assistance while we get everything posted, refined, formatted, rearranged, and completed in proper style. Many of us are just learning how to do all of this, and we are grateful for your good humor and help while we expand these pages. Wendy Schultz wendyif 23:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Wendy. Nice to see you all around here. Actually, 10 days ago I developped World Futures Studies Federation almost from scratch . I also created Mahdi ElMandjra article (though still I need time to develop it) and thought about contacting you for help. Surprisingly, here you are (2 dozens). That's why I called it a fatal raid as it was unexpected. -- Svest 00:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;


 * And boy do we appreciate your creating a page for WFSF from scratch! We need all the PR we can get.  IF there had been no content here on Futures Studies at all, we probably would have called it a barnraising; as it was, we wanted to generate a little excitement within our own community, to get people involved:  hence the slightly martial term.  Or you could think of it as a big Halloween "trick or treat":  the treat part is the extra content; the trick part is the mess (hopefully temporary).  wendyif 08:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

"how do we change the header to "Futures Studies," which is the actual name of the field (not "Future Studies")."

see below!!! Jose R. Globaleyes 00:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

new links for publications
I've added web links for each journal. previously they were just open ended pages, but I didn't expect people would write an encyclopaedic entry on each, so they now just go directly to the publications main page. You can check them for accuracy if you want. Nice job everyone on the body of the text. Looking good and starting to resemble the breadth and depth of this field! Jose

From 'future studies' to 'futures studies'
I asked at the village pump about changing the heading from 'future studies' to 'futures studies'. Apparantly the title is locked into the system at the admin level. Below is my query, and teh response I got:

Hi

A number of colleagues of mine from the World Futures Studies Federation (WFSF) are together editing the page on studies of the future. The problem we have is that the page title (which we cannot change) is 'future studies'. The previous contributors named it by using something they call a 'google test' comparing the number of hits from different titles.

The problem is that no one in this field calls it 'future studies'. I myself have a Masters in Futures Studies, know many in the field, and have conducted a survey of futures related courses around the world. There are half a dozen universities in the US that offer one course or another on 'futures studies'. No one calls it 'future studies'.

There are epistemological reasons why scholars in this area have come to call it futures (plural) over the past 2 decades, but it would indeed require long winded explanations. All I really need to know is:

.......how do we change it?

Thanks

Jose Ramos


 * Most of the time, there's a "Move" tab next to the "Edit this page" tab. In your case, however, futures studies already exists as redirect to future studies, in which case you'll need to list it at WP:RM. Now, I presume that you're involved in this "Wikiraid" thing, but I don't think that this will happen as quickly as you want.-Sean Black | Talk 04:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Sean

Thanks for your quick feedback. I'm not quite sure how I would list it at WP:RM. I'll post it to the others and see if they know what you mean.

Cheers

Jose Globaleyes 00:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am sorry for being late in responding. It is fixed now ---> Futures Studies. Please check also with me the links from other pages to this article. Cheers -- Svest 00:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

Thank you for doing that. Great that we have the right title finally. However when I try to edit, I get a blank edit page :< I also think we need to attend to wikification, which you mentioned earlier, so any tips on what isn't looking so good, or outside of wikipedia protocol, come right out with it and let us know.

Jose Globaleyes 00:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Try this link to start editing . I don't witness the same problem (blank page) as you mentioned. -- Svest 00:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;


 * One more thing. Future Studies still exist as a redirect to the main Futures Studies, in case visitors would search mistakingly for Future studies. -- Svest 00:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

What are your plans/targets?
I just want to know so we can organize stuff. What I mean by targets is like how much material do you have that you think encyclopaedic to contribute to WP. If it is significant, I would sugges to create a WikiProject Futures Studies and later on Futures Studies Collaboration. The latter would have a target of having one of the articles related to FS nominated to be featured at the main page of Wikipedia. On the other hand, that would help us prepare and discuss all matters on the project page. Let me know when you are ready. -- Svest 01:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;
 * Thank you again, not only for your assistance, but for your patience and good humor...we really appreciate it. There is an enormous amount of "encyclopaedic" material we could post -- if by that you mean reference and explanation material regarding key concepts, methods, tools, and thinkers in the field, as well as developmental history, main debates, etc.  Our underlying agenda, frankly, is for people to understand that there *is* a field, both in study (academia) and in practice.  Thus your suggestion to create a WikiProject, followed by a Collaboration, is excellent advice, because being nominated to be a feature article is *exactly* the sort of positive press we'd like.  And yes, we do realise we have a lot of work to do, especially in editing and formatting, to achieve that target.
 * What we would like to create is a solid statement of the precursors and origins of the field, its links to related fields (like systems science and critical theory), history of development, key thinkers, key concepts, widely used research methods, primary institutions (educational, research, consulting, professional organisations), publications (journals and e-publications), and a representative further readings list. We want this statement to represent faithfully the diversity of the field, its multidisciplinarity, and its cross-cultural nature.  What complicates the already complicated task of accurately limning a trans-disciplinary field is its relative intellectual newness; in terms of Kuhn's stages of paradigm shifts, we are about midway as a field, just beginning to converge on key concepts and conceptual frameworks, and to document them.  Thus making a truly inclusive and NPOV page (or pages) for Wikipedia is generating debate within our community, and will be a bit messy for a while.
 * But creating a WikiProject Futures Studies is good advice; thank you.
 * Another problem, of course, is the deeper structure: the fact that "Futures Studies" is currently a sub-page of "Futurology."  But more on that after we get the FS page itself tidied up.  Thanks for your help. wendyif 08:24, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am not sure about what you meant by FS is a sub-page of Futurology. If you can give me a brief distinction between the two, I'd fix the categorization than. -- Svest 20:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

WikiProject Futures Studies
Hi. The WikiProject is running and alive. Please participate on it. Note that you can change the layout of the project (just like treating an article). I'll now create the template that we have to use for every single article related to FS in order to attract more interested wikipedians and interested visitors. --Cheers-- Svest 19:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;

from 'academic programs' to 'futures in education'
It occured to me that, with so many universities being listed under 'academic programs', it is getting a little hyperlink heavy.

Also, we don't have a section on futures in education, which is a very large aspect of the overall field.

My suggestion is that instead of lots of hyperlinks, we construct several very coherent paragraphs on futures in education, with a few hyperlinks that would then go to two or three new pages. These new pages could have more of the details on futures in education, ie lots of links etc. plus other info.

This would work much like the section on 'futures techniques' was moved to a new page.

How does that sound?

Jose

New introduction Part II
Hello everyone. On the Wiki entry for Futures studies, as promised back on October 30th, there is now a revised version of the introduction. There has been some back and forth via email, not very Wiki spirited I guess, but nevertheless constructive I think. You can see the changes if you compare what is in the article now with what I drafted back on October 30th and posted above. Now, following the spirit of Wiki, let's see what happens. The aim of this new intro is to present Futures Studies in a comprehensible, inclusive and neutral way, without losing the distinctiveness of Futures Studies as a "discipline". This is a fine line to walk, particularly in a field that for better or worse has no orthodoxy. It may be that the lack of a dominant view-point is an accurate reflection of something inherent to the subject or it may just be that the field is still too immature. In any case I think the point of the introduction should be to delimit the field in as open ended a way as possible, without privileging any one school of thought nor losing all definitional meaning. Hope this helps. Thanks, Riel --Rielm 19:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Too many big lists
The lists need to be cut down to be more concise... there's too many of them, and the External Links section is out of control. --mdd4696 01:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Created Futures resources article with External links for clean-up crews. RJBurkhart 21:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That doesn't solve the problem at all. It'd be better to bring the list back but pare it down to a manageable size. -Will Beback 23:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Why capitalization?
Shouldn't this be at future studies, not Future Studies?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Future Studies is a specific field of science, like Biology or Chemistry, and should be capitalized as a specific noun. Darkeye11547 18:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

academic programs -> futures education
I have change the academic programs section to Futures Education, based on conversations I had during the wiki raid. People have been complaining that the section is too list heavy, and I felt the long list on academic programs was arduous. I've moved this list to a new section on university programs. However I'm not sure how this sits with wikipedia protocols.

Comments appreciated

Jose

Globaleyes

okay I got rid of the new pages, as I was told they are un encyclopaedic. I know people have worked on the links, so I put them back under the futures education heading. But I think we need to find way of nesting links into other pages as references.

Globaleyes 01:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Futures Studies
Is this project alive? I asked a question on that project talk page over a month ago and nobody replied...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I created that project as I had witnessed a massive collaboration of a few contributers (maybe a dozen). I thought it would be a good idea but I am also now wondering about its fate. I hope to see more people getting involved. Cheers -- Szvest 12:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up&#153;
 * Well, I am sure sooner or later enough (new) users will come to make that project come out of hibernation.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've recently requested the Minnesota Futurists Chapter of WFS to contribute or review & revise articles. RJBurkhart 18:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

NE-Kansas JoCo Library resources
This sampler reflects holdings about Futurists and the areas for which they use future studies to help them forecast alternative futures:
 * What futurists believe by Coates, Joseph F. (Joseph Francis), 1929-
 * Publisher: Lomond ; Pub date: 1989.
 * Pages: xiii, 340 p. : ISBN 0912338660


 * Predicting the future : from Jules Verne to Bill Gates by Malone, John Williams.
 * Publisher: M. Evans, Pub date: c1997.
 * Pages: ix, 194 p. ; ISBN 087131830X

RJBurkhart 21:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Nine shift : work, life and education in the 21st century
 * Personal Author: Draves, William A. (William August), 1949-
 * Added author: Coates, Julie.
 * Publication info: River Falls, Wisconsin : LERN Books, c2004.
 * Physical descrip: 300 p. : ill. ; 22 cm. ISBN 1577220307
 * Subject term: Twenty-first century--Forecasts.
 * Subject term: Civilization, Modern--21st century--Forecasting.
 * Subject term: Organizational change.
 * Subject term: Social prediction.
 * Subject term: Education forecasting.
 * Subject term: Technology forecasting.

Futurists merge
Futurists contains little if any information that is not present in this article, I think that anything useful from Futurists should be merged here and that article should be redirected to Futurism, which Futurist already redirects to. --Hgebel 17:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I would recommend against this. As outlined in Futurist (definition), http://www.accelerationwatch.com/futuristdef.html, there are many types of futurists in common and professional connotation (I've noted twelve so far). This term has its own history that deserves treatment. Furthermore, not all futurists engage in a process we might call study. Preconventional futurists would generally not. And while astrologers and religious futurists use methodologies that include study, their personal revelation or belief-based work, which may be significant for some, would not fall within a consensus definition of the futures studies term as used by most practitioners.--John Smart 18:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC).
 * That's why I recommended that after the merger it be redirected at Futurism, which links to a number of different types of Futurism, instead of this article. If it isn't merged, then the Futurists article should be expanded to include the other meanings, and the Futurist article should be redirected to point to Futurists instead of Futurism.--Hgebel 21:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * John, since you're working on Futurists I withdrew my merge request. I've put in a move request that Futurists be moved to Futurist (and Futurists be redirected to it.) This is to make it conform to the article naming conventions. In the meantime, I've redirected Futurist to Futurists since it didn't make sense to me for Futurist and Futurists to point at different articles.--Hgebel 13:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you Hgebel. And thanks for taking care of the naming requests. That's a bit above my pay grade at present. I'll do my best to put useful content on Futurists over the next few days, according to Wikipedia's standards. John Smart 15:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The move is finished. I bolded the subject to conform to the style manual. Thanks for your work on these articles.--Hgebel 11:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Removing memetics category
I am removing the memetics category from this article since you learn no more about the article's contents from the category and v.v. Since so many things may be memes we should try to keep the category closely defined in order to remain useful. Hope you're okay with that. The link to meme would be enough I suggest. Facius 10:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Futurology vs. Futures Studies
Just a question from an interested reader: what is the distinction between Futures Studies and Futurology? This isn't clear at a glance. CharlesGillingham 19:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Fashion and design
I would like to suggest that this section be moved to the end of the overall entry under a rubric which might be useful to others as well that would address how FS is applied in specific sectors. The Fashion and Design entry, placed where it is in the sequence of items that make up the FS overview, is confusing and misleading. Rielm 08:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Lists of journals in subject articles
It might help if each journal listed has a WP article, so they won't be considered spam. DGG (talk) 08:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Linkfarm
The external links need cleanup throughout the article per WP:EL, WP:SPAM, and WP:NOT. Additionally, the lists that are growing within this article need inclusion criteria and should only accept links that meet the stated criteria. I propose an initial criteria of links to existing articles only. --Ronz 19:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The first sentance
The first sentence of this article sounds more like an advertisement than an introduction to an encyclopaedic article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.57.11 (talk) 06:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Futurists Women and Artists
Whoever keeps editing out well-known futurists please stop. This is an example of bias. I saw Ms. Vita-More on this some time ago along with other well-known names. Vita-More probably has more press than many of these names and more academic credentials. She is a leader in the media arts. I want more women mentioned and more artists mentioned because futurists are not just businessmen. Videogamexx (talk) 20:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)