Talk:Fuzuli (poet)

Re: Arabic text
I have added the Arabic script for names, terms, titles, etc. However, I am not at all well-versed in the script, so there may be mistakes. If anyone familiar with Arabic script (in its Arabic, Persian, and/or Ottoman manifestations) could check and correct any mistakes that may have surfaced, it would be greatly appreciated. —Saposcat 11:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment
Divan tradition of Azerbaijani literature??! Azerbaijani Turkic?? Any rigid reasoning why it's Azerbaijani not Turkoman? These are lame psuedo terms. He was one of  "the great 7 poets" of the alavis/shias, he was praised by shias. Considering he lived 500 years ago before Stalinism, his language was Turkish conversible among the Turkic world, or call it Turki with the most common name at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.138.52.189 (talk) 23:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Great article. Should be nominated. nesimi 22:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I don't really know what it should be nominated for just yet, since in its current state it's neither up to good article or featured article status. Things that are currently lacking, for instance:


 * the "Work" section currently there needs a lot more, specifically it should be mentioned that the mystical interpretation provided is only one way of looking at Fuzûlî's work, and a very limited one at that
 * it needs to be established that the "Work" section is not original research; I don't think it is, since the interpretations provided can—I think—be seen to apply very generally across much of Persian, Ottoman, and Urdu poetry; however, this would need verification and support
 * much more mention of many more of Fuzûlî's works should be made, and a discussion of their (and his) significance provided


 * In any case, I think the article is at least off to a good start, and I'm hoping to devote more time to it once I have delved deeper into Fuzûlî's œuvre (right now, I'm deep into Neşâtî, a fantastic Ottoman poet who doesn't even have a page yet, sadly); until then, any help that you or anyone else (perhaps the folks over at WikiProject Azeri?) could provide would be greatly appreciated. —Saposcat 14:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I’ll see what I can do and I’ll spread the word with people at Wikiproject Azeri. And I think it would be just great if this article could be brought up to the standard of a featured article. May I also suggest you have a look at the article about another great Azeri poet Nasimi? I think Abdulnr made a good start on that one, but it needs work to be up to the standard the poet deserves. Grandmaster 16:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Again it is a superb article, at least amongs ones futuring Azeri personalities. Appreciate your invaluable attentioon on Nasimi, which I currently working on. abdulnr 21:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look at the Nasimi article when I get the chance, though I'll have to bone up on his work some before I dare add anything (I've only glanced at a few of his poems so far). Until then, I can do some copyediting and the like. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. —Saposcat 04:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think right now the article is good enough to be nominated to a good article. It meets all the criteria. Grandmaster 07:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It still seems to me to lack the "it is broad in its coverage" criterion, insofar as the "Works" section is still terribly thin and needs fleshing out with other perspectives and more explanation. —Saposcat 08:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the works section indeed needs some expansion, but even without it it meets the criteria. This article could even be made into a featured article in future. But anyway, as usual, I trust your judgment. I’ll try to collect more material to work on it. Grandmaster 09:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Newly Added
Hi, I read this on "Britannica" thought it was interesting and as it's ofcourse Britannica its historically and factual and referenced by the top scholors.

Fuzuli Turkish poet and the most outstanding figure in the classical school of Turkish literature, born 1495, died 1556, both in Karbala. Resided in Baghdad most of his life. Fuzuli composed poetry with equal facility and elegance in Turkish, Persian and Arabic. Although his Turkish works are written in Azeri dialect, he had a thorough knowledge of both Ottoman and Chagatai Turkish literary traditions.

The works for which he is famous include his melodic and sensitive rendition of the classic Leyla and Mecnun. This celebrated allegorical romance depicts the attraction of the Mecnun (the human spirit) for Leyla (divine beauty). Fuzuli is the author of two divans (collection of poems), one in Azerbaijani Turkish, and the other in Persian. These anthologies contain examples of his most lyrical poetry, many concerned with mystical love and others lamenting the ephemeral nature of this world. His poetic expressions, characterized by sincerity, passion, and a pervading strain of melancholy, transcended the highly formalized classical Islamic literary esthetic. Fuzuli’s works influenced many poets up to the 19th century.

Reference: Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. IV, p.367, 1980 edition.

johnstevens5

Monument
I have another picture of the monument in Baku, featuring only the top part in more detail, but I’m not sure about it’s inclusion in the article, since we already have the picture of the whole monument. It could be redundant. What do you think? Grandmaster 06:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Opium or hashish?
I don't know any Arabic, but running down the poem for another article I encountered several references to "Benk u bode" as meaning "hashish and wine", not "opium and wine". Please check this. Mike Serfas 15:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right about it not being opium; it's not quite hashish, either, I believe, but rather more akin to bhang. Still, "hashish"—if only for familiarity's sake, would probably be better (the poem hasn't been translated to English yet, as far as I know). I'll make the appropriate changes. Cheers. —Saposcat 18:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Fuzuli
An parlant de poesie de Fuzuli, il faut aussi citer ces bien connu vers de Fuzuli dans la Poesie de l!Eaue (Su Kasidesi)

Dest busi arzusuyla olursem dostlar Kuze eylen topragim sun aninla yare su

si je mouris avant de baiser de son cou heu amis Faite un pot de mes sol ou je gis et donnez en leaue a ma bien aimee

A ce vers, poet parle de l!eau et a son lire on entand le son (es) comme le son de leau qui coulue, a chaque slable a peu pres; ce qui montre sa mairise sur la languae turque —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.42.111.131 (talk) 05:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Fuzuli
An parlant de poesie de Fuzuli, il faut aussi citer ces bien connu vers de Fuzuli dans la Poesie de l!Eaue (Su Kasidesi)

Dest busi arzusuyla olursem dostlar Kuze eylen topragim sun aninla yare su

si je mouris avant de baiser de son cou heu amis Faite un pot de mes sol ou je gis et donnez en leaue a ma bien aimee

A ce vers, poet parle de l!eau et a son lire on entand le son (es) comme le son de leau qui coulue, a chaque slable a peu pres; ce qui montre sa mairise sur la languae turque

KEMAL ERDEMLI —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.42.111.131 (talk) 05:32, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Azeri ?
turkishculture.org isn't identifying reliable sources. Because the source of this link is aznet.org. And this link abuses Neutral point of view. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 19:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Article in Iranica is concerened with Azerbaijani language and not with Fuzûlî's ethnicity. Takabeg (talk) 20:53, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Another Iranica's article is concerned with Azerbaijani literature and not with Fuzûlî's ethnicity. Takabeg (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Iranica is a reliable third party published source. It says that Fuzuli was an Azeri poet. This information is verifiable, it cannot be removed. All the sources agree that he wrote in Azerbaijani language. Grand  master  21:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Searching ethnicity in Islam World of 16th century is extremely difficult. People defined themselves as Moslem. The only reliable method was language and Fuzuli was unquestionably Turk. However subclassification (Azeri, Turkmen, Ottoman etc.) was not well established. So as a second method to define the ethnicity the geographical location should be taken into consideration. Fuzuli lived in what is now modern Iraq; neither  Azerbaijan, nor in Turkey. During the early years of his life Iraq was parts of Akkoyunlu or Safavid dynasties and the later years it was a part of Ottoman dynasty. In fact he was granted a pension by the Ottoman sultan. Under these cicumstances he can be considered equally Turk and Azeri. (Anyway, Azeri and Turkish are mutually intelligble.) Any reliable third party source ? Yes, the very first sentence in the article Fuzuli in Encyclopaedia Britannica expo 70 vol 9 p 1062 is Fuzuli: ( d.1556) Turkish poet,is the outstanding figure in the classical schoolof Turkish Literature... Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with you 100%, old Ottoman Turkish was about identical to it, and several sources arve available for sherry pickers by simply typing on google book. Ionidasz (talk) 15:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Britannica Fuzuli wrote in Azerbaijani Turkish. So he is an Azeri poet by language, and Ottoman by citizenship. At the time when Fuzuli lived Iraq was a part first Sefevid, and later the Ottoman empires. Iranica is a reliable third party source, and it says that Fuzuli was an Azeri poet. Of course, the heritage of Fuzuli belongs to both Turkish and Azerbaijani culture, and the entire Turkic world, but in terms of the language Fuzuli was an Azeri poet, according to sources. Ionidasz, you cannot remove source info because you do not like it or disagree with it. It is not acceptable. Grand  master  19:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's sherry picking at its best! you just have to check google book to see that many sources call it plain Turkish, in those years the old Ottoman Turkish was used and was basically the same. Also, Iranica and Britanica are tertiary sources and are unwelcome, which encyclopedia use other encyclopedia's as source? Ionidasz (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you actually read the sources you quote? Your own source that you included in the article says:


 * His works are Iranian in form and character, with a mixture of Azerbaijani-Turkish dialect.


 * So Fuzuli wrote in Azerbaijani language, all the sources agree on that. What is the point in your edit warring? Do you deny that Fuzuli wrote in Azerbaijani Turkic language? And did you actually read Fuzuli's poetry? You are edit warring about things you don't seem to even know. And your edit warring across multiple articles is no good. Discuss and reach consensus first. You can't just remove sourced info. And rules do not prohibit using tertiary sources either. Grand  master  06:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, it seems now that the main question is the language of Fuzuli. Was it Ottoman Turkish or Azeri Turkish ? To answer that we should know the differences between the two. I am not pretending to be a literary critic. But I don't see any. In the 16th century the the Ottoman folk language and Azeri were identical. So I think that this discussion is quite fruitless and we should concentrate our energy to be more productive. Lets give credit to Turkish and Azeri at the same time. After all he is a common celebrity to both people.Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

programming language
there is a new programming language created and named after him http://www.fuzuliproject.org/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.222.184.42 (talk) 12:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

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Related AfD
Please see Articles for deletion/The Statue of Muhammad Fuzuli, where a merge to this article has been proposed (and leave your opinions there, not here). —David Eppstein (talk) 13:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Füzuli (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:47, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

How is he an Azerbaijani?
The Azerbaijani identity was created by the Soviet Russians in the late 1930s. He was born almost 500 years before that. Fuzuli was born in modern-day Iraq and spent most of his time there. Muslims at that time didn't particularly care about ethnicity that much, especially when they knew several languages.

So how can he be an Azerbaijani? This is utter nonsense and it should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sickofthisbs (talk • contribs) 10:36, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Fuzuli is known for poetry not for ethnicity
Per Golden comment.."ethnicity should be included when it's relevant to the subject's notability".

Actually, Fuzuli could not have been known for being Azerbaijani, during his lifetime, since such distinctions did not exist during that time period. Simply because certain sources have called him Azerbaijani does not mean his notability was due to his ethnicity.

Of the three sources used for "Azerbaijani", the third one(Shushtery) is unviewable(fails WP:V). The first says Azerbaijani, the second source(H. Javadi and K. Burill), actually calls him "Turkish".

Per other sources, Fuzuli's tribe, not Azerbaijani is used;

Even the travel guide!: Shaw, Somel, Havlioglu, and Yalçinkaya call him an Ottoman poet!

Clearly Fuzuli's ethnicity is not what made him notable, his poetry was what made him notable. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I'd have to agree with user:Kansas Bear. This is what the latest (i.e. third) edition of the Encyclopaedia of Islam states:
 * "Fuzuli (Fuḍūlī, 888–963/1483–1556) was the pen name of Mehmed b. Süleyman (Meḥmed b. Süleymān), an illustrious lyric poet and author of Azeri literature, with as revered a place in Ottoman literature. (...) Fuzuli is renowned for his Turkish works written in literary Azeri, especially for his gazels (ghazels), his mesnevi Leyla ve Mecnun (Leylī vü Mecnūn, “Leyla and Mejnun”), and his maktel (maqtel) Ḥadīqat es-suʿadā (“Garden of the blessed”). When the words “Leyla” and “Mejnun” are mentioned, the first name that comes to mind in the Turkish context is Fuzuli."
 * Focus, in the lede, on his relationship to Azerbaijani and Turkic literature and use "Ottoman" as WP:NPOV and WP:VER. Then explain in the body of the article that he was a Bayat Turkoman. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:05, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Fuzuli is obviously not notable for his ethnicity alone, especially not during his lifetime. I never implied this.


 * Being a member of the Bayat tribe or an Ottoman does not preclude him from being Azerbaijani. There are, in fact, reliable sources that clarify this:


 * Here are additional reliable sources that confirm Fuzuli's Azeri origin:


 * Based on the above, I propose moving information about Fuzuli's ethnic origin to the Life section with the following text:
 * "Fuzûlî is generally believed to have been born around 1480 in what is now Iraq, when the area was under Ak Koyunlu Turkmen rule; he was probably born in either Karbalā’ or an-Najaf. He was an Azerbaijani hailing from the Turkic Oghuz Bayat tribe, who were scattered throughout the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Caucasus at the time..."


 * The majority of reliable sources introduce Fuzuli as a poet of Azerbaijani literature and depict his works in Azerbaijani as what made him famous, so he should be introduced as such in the article's lead. Thus, I propose changing the lead to:
 * "Mahammad bin Suleyman (Classical Azerbaijani: محمد سليمان اوغلی Məhəmməd Süleyman oğlu), better known by his pen name Fuzuli (فضولی Füzuli), was a 16th century poet, writer and thinker, who wrote mostly in his native Azerbaijani, as well as Arabic and Persian languages. Often considered one of the greatest contributors to the divan tradition of Azerbaijani literature, Fuzuli wrote his collected poems (divan) in all three languages. He was well-versed in both the Ottoman and Chagatai Turkic literary traditions as well as mathematics and astronomy."


 * Here are some examples of reliable sources introducing him as a poet of Azerbaijani literature/language:
 * The above Encyclopaedia of Islam source cited by : "Fuzuli (Fuḍūlī, 888–963/1483–1556) was the pen name of Mehmed b. Süleyman (Meḥmed b. Süleymān), an illustrious lyric poet and author of Azeri literature, with as revered a place in Ottoman literature. (...) Fuzuli is renowned for his Turkish works written in literary Azeri, especially for his gazels (ghazels), his mesnevi Leyla ve Mecnun (Leylī vü Mecnūn, “Leyla and Mejnun”), and his maktel (maqtel) Ḥadīqat es-suʿadā (“Garden of the blessed”). When the words “Leyla” and “Mejnun” are mentioned, the first name that comes to mind in the Turkish context is Fuzuli."
 * — Golden  call me maybe? 17:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * — Golden  call me maybe? 17:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * It is clear his notability came from his poetry, not his ethnicity. The my listing of sources proves that, to the point to where he should be called an "Ottoman poet".
 * As for "Fuzuli was a 16th century poet, writer and thinker, who wrote mostly in his native Azerbaijani, as well as Arabic and Persian languages. Often considered one of the greatest contributors to the divan tradition of Azerbaijani literature, Fuzuli wrote his collected poems (divan) in all three languages."
 * Add to the body of the article this reference, Reflections on Knowledge and Language in Middle Eastern Societies, edited by Yonatan Mendel, Bruno De Nicola, Husain Qutbuddin, page 293. Which will ensure we avoid WP:OR concerning the "native Azerbaijani" part.
 * Also, Fuzuli actually wrote more in Persian than Azerbaijani(Mansouri, page 214). Azerbaijani;44+305+13+44+84(490) Persian;49+410+3+46+106(614). And no, I do not think it is relevant to mention he wrote more in Persian than the other two languages.
 * Remove, "Often", since he is considered one of the greatest contributors to the divan tradition of Azerbaijani literature.
 * Remove "mostly", per Mansouri, page 214.
 * My suggestion for the lead;
 * "Fuzuli was a 16th century Ottoman poet, writer and thinker, who wrote in his native Azerbaijani, as well as Arabic and Persian languages. Considered one of the greatest contributors to the divan tradition of Azerbaijani literature, Fuzuli wrote his collected poems (divan) in all three languages."
 * Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:00, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no doubt that he was also an Ottoman poet, however, we have nearly 15 reliable sources here who all introduce Fuzuli differently. From the sources used in this discussion alone, only five introduce him as an Ottoman poet (Shaw, Somel, Havlioglu, Yalçinkaya and Savory), while seven introduce him as Azerbaijani or a poet of Azerbaijani literature (Doerfer, Norris, Green, Sultan-Qurraie, Sahni, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Encyclopaedia Iranica (2000)) . The best option here would be to avoid categorising him in the first sentence of the lead and instead indicate this later in the lead or in the article body.


 * We could add something like this at the end of the lead:
 * "He is also regarded as one of the greatest Ottoman lyrical poets with knowledge of both the Ottoman and Chagatai Turkic literary traditions, as well as mathematics and astronomy."


 * I agree with the rest of your suggestions. — Golden  call me maybe? 21:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * "The best option here would be to avoid categorising him in the first sentence of the lead and instead indicate this later in the lead or in the article body."
 * As long as we do not have to deal with pro-Ottoman POV pushers later(*Ugh*) or someone finding out Fuzuli wrote more poems in Persian and feels that should be in the lead(*double Ugh*). I have been here over 15 yrs and have seen nearly everything.
 * "He is also regarded as one of the greatest Ottoman lyrical poets with knowledge of both the Ottoman and Chagatai Turkic literary traditions, as well as mathematics and astronomy."
 * As long as we have sources in the article that support this.
 * So we have agreed to;


 * "Fuzuli was a 16th century poet, writer and thinker, who wrote in his native Azerbaijani, as well as Arabic and Persian languages. Considered one of the greatest contributors to the divan tradition of Azerbaijani literature, Fuzuli wrote his collected poems (divan) in all three languages."
 * Yes? --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, for the lead, with the "Ottoman lyrical poet" sentence added at the end. Was my suggestion in my initial comment about clarifying his origins in the Life section with appropriate sourcing agreed upon as well? — Golden  call me maybe? 21:57, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I assumed you meant expanding on the last sentence in the lead.
 * "Was my suggestion in my initial comment about clarifying his origins in the Life section with appropriate sourcing agreed upon as well?"
 * If it has references, yes. You might want to paraphrase to avoid any copy & pasting issues(plagiarism).--Kansas Bear (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That is what I meant, yes. Just wanted to make sure as it wasn't included in your quote.
 * Great, I'll make the changes then. Cheers. — Golden  call me maybe? 22:11, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Belated clarification for Bruxton
@Bruxton; I see you've asked a question about why the text uses Şikayetname while the source uses Šekāyatnāma. These are alternative Romanizations of a language not yet written in the Latin script at the time. The former uses Persian sound correspondence in the Perso-Arabic script, while the latter is Modern Turkish Latinization (or at least one version of it, I would prefer Şikâyetnâme, which the Turkish Language Association would disagree with). The other alternative would be Şikayətnamə, the Azeri usage. Uness232 (talk) 05:42, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

TFAR
Today's featured article/requests/Fuzuli (poet) -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

No mention of Sufism
He is listed on List of Sufi saints but there is no mention of Sufism on his page.

I linked the first instance of "mystic" to Sufism but maybe it should have a sentence in the lead. YordleSquire (talk) 04:19, 13 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't remember encountering any information about Fuzuli being a Sufi saint when I was writing the article. —  Golden  talk 07:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)