Talk:G8/Archive 1

Not sure when the picture was taken
I am not sure whether the picture was taken in 2001 or 2002. Can anybody check that? See Image talk:G8meeting.jpg... -Edcolins 11:27, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * It's definitely not the 2002 summit. -GrantNeufeld 16:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Page move
For discussion n the title of this page, and of G8 and G8 (disambiguation), please see Talk:G8 (disambiguation). sjorford &rarr;&bull;&larr; 12:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Depth
i was hoping that this article could have more depth, instead of merely the most basic facts. Issues like contributions of the G8 and criticisms on it could be expanded. --Plastictv 28 June 2005 07:02 (UTC)

An encyclopedia article should consist only of basic facts. This isn't an opinion piece.--Aardvark114 03:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

European Union involvement
The article is unclear wrt/ the involvement and influence of the EU. -- Chucker July 2, 2005 23:51 (UTC)

Russia
Russia is not one of the world's leading industrialized nations, and this is why Russia is not participating in all events. The G8 is a grouping of seven of the world's leading industrialized nations: France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Canada, plus Russia

It's still a grouping of 8. And Russia is a leading industrialized nation. -- Stormscape 23:34, 9 July 2005 (UTC)


 * No it's not. And surely not ranked 8th. It's 7 most industrialized, plus russia which is not the 8th in any way shape or form.

Look: the g8 list is built over the national GDP of every nation in the world, the classification (that you can see at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29) reports, after the entrance of the republic of china at 4th position, Canada 8th and Russia 14th...

GDP doesn't determine all of it, if you look at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/rankorderguide.html you will see that Russia ranks high on most if not all economic and industrial listings, but I do agree China should definitely be in it. -Shogunpk 09:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)shogunpk

Interesting how Russia was not suspended from the G8 for its escalating anti-Western activities...128.91.33.103 07:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Request to remove "G8 and Terrorism" section
The attacks on London are not related to what G8 is or to what it does, therefore this article shouldn't have a section about them. This event is, of course, related to the 2005 G8 summit, and it is appropiate to grant it a section in the latter article, but not here. Does somebody disagree? rbonvall 21:19, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

It's still relevant info. It most likely happened because of the G8 summit. And nothing should be removed until it is decided upon which version to use. Stormscape 11:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * That's what we're doing, deciding the version to use. I understand the attacks sound relevant by now because they happened recently, but I (personal opinion) wouldn't expect to find a reference to the bombings in an article about the group of countries whose leaders meet to discuss about politics and economy.  The section looks like a news report, and that is not supposed to be on Wikipedia.  The causal relation between the summit and the attacks should not be claimed here until it is officialy or confidently verified (see WP:V).  Even if there is no causal relation, the event is relevant to the 2005 G8 summit because there was evident consequences on the course of the meeting, but the attacks have not (yet) had any important impact on what G8 is.  I won't remove anything yet, I will wait for more opinions.  Thanks. rbonvall 22:22, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Request to separate G7 from G8
The G7 and G8 are separate entities, and are shown as such in the press. Sources - see http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,16705958-31037,00.html versus http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,16705959-31037,00.html as an example. Steven 02:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Those links don't work (as I write, perhaps it is temporary). Although they are formally separate entities that doesn't necessarily mean they should have separate articles. What do you intend to write in each? What overlap would there be? Would readers need to read both articles to have an understanding of the subject? Pcb21| Pete 08:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * That's a good point, and to be honest I'm not sure how to answer it. I was hoping for some buy in from this group. What I would suggest is that there is a section within the G8 page that would mention the difference between G7 and G8 (which is I believe that Russia is not part of the G7). Steven 11:03, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The Bold text[[

'''G7 and G8
''' ]] should absolutely be separated since they are entirely different entities and although they represent similar countries do not even have the same representatives from the same countries attending. BOTH groups meet currently each year and yet this article does not distinguish between the two. "One size does not fit all" and should not be representative of both. One is an economic enitity and the other is a political entity. One entity makes economic decisions, the other makes political decisions - unless unbeknownst to me, politics and economics are the same thing, this article needs to be separated. The G7 has semi-annual meetings (4 times per year) and information postings at both the US Treasury (www.ustreas.gov) and the British Treasury (www.hm-treasury.gov.uk). It is NOT a predecessor of the G8 as this article erroneously contends. This is a complete misrepresentation of reality and the structure of global power mechanisms. Additionally, since the G7 makes decisions unrelated to the G8, how would we keep these articles maintained and coherent? There is also a G20 (Group of 20) that involves a larger participation base for economic decisions. The Group of Twenty (G20) forum of finance ministers and central bank governors was formally created at the September 25, 1999 meeting of the G7 Finance Ministers (http://www.g7.utoronto.ca/g20/g20whatisit.html). Do we include them on this page too, along with an archive of their meeting dates? This webpage will be more than 100 pages long [not to mention very confusing]. Stevenmitchell 16:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The contributors to this page should also note that there is a G10 (economic) Wikipedia page. This section absolutely needs to be separated into applicable sections so that viable descriptions of both can be adequately organized.  Currently, the opening paragraphs of this article as well as the listing grid of conferences, need complete overhaul.  Hopefully, no children are using this page to use or quote for schoolwork.  Stevenmitchell 00:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Please seperate the articles, as stevenmitchel and stevenplunkett explain they are two different identities who both still exist. --62.251.90.73 17:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Other countries
Does anyone have info on the participation of non-G8 countries in the summits. For example, Finland is sendind its President of PM (not known yet) to the 2006 G8 summit in Russia. What are the roles of these countries? Also note that Austria is the president of EU at the time of the meeting (June). --85.49.227.95 03:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe they are; South Africa, Brazil, India, China, and Mexico.

Sidebar -- Current G8 Leaders
It appears to me that the references at the bottom to the European Union and the International Monetary Fund do not belong here. These organizations are not among the eight G8 nations, and their officials are not leaders of the Group. The EU officials at most share in a certain way in the leadership of four of the eight G8 nations. The IMF Director is not one of the leaders, though he exercises an influence, as do others not included here. 67.21.48.122 05:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

G7 and G8 vs. G-7 and G-8
The New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and Time all prefer G-7 and G-8 to G7 and G8. This article uses both unhyphenated and hyphenated. I recommend hyphenated, but at least it should use one or the other throughout. Anomalocaris 22:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism / Spam
User has exceeded the 3 reverts in 24 hours rule and has, since at least April 5, been on a campaign of switching the official site for the 2006 G8 summit in Russia from http://en.g8russia.ru/ to http://www.g8stpetersburg.com/ (which is a domain squatting site pretending to be the official site). I don't know the procedure for getting an admin to block a user, so could someone take care of that, please? Thanks. —GrantNeufeld 17:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the vandal has switched IP addresses. has switched the Russian G8 website link just like 70.28.15.28. —GrantNeufeld 00:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

South Korea
What is the point of this being in the opening paragraph? "South Korea is also one of major leader, but is not part of G8." Seems like a random out of place comment. I removed it, if anyone feels the need to add it back in, I'm curious as to why it's there in the first place. :\ --buffer v2

London Bombings
"The attacks are assumed to be in retaliation for the UK's participation in military action in Afghanistan and Iraq, although terrorism has been perpetrated against western states by Islamic fundamentalists prior to those actions."

This sentence does not sound politically correct. While it may be true, it is comparing the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq to Islamic fundamentalists. It also sounds like it is justifying the invasions of the mentioned countries because of the previous attacks.

--Anon. 02:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

silvio isn't prime minister of italy anymore
(what's the point of having whole links to each leader anyway?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.76.99.106 (talk • contribs)

He's apparently not resigning until May 2. Then Romano Prodi is set to become Prime Minister. As to listing the leaders, since they tend to be the public focus of the G8 summit events, it makes a great deal of sense to list them in the article. —GrantNeufeld 22:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

SPAIN ?
Why Spain is not in G8 ? Spain is the 8th world's power, not Russia...

Unless you are thinking of the Spanish Armada in the 16th century, I don't think Spain pales in comparison to Russia. Even the Netherlands has more economic might than Spain. The G8 is a political entity and with Russia being a nuclear power, as are some of her former satellites, Russia was added to the G8 to ensure political hegemony. It may be that China should be added to this mix too since they have nuclear weapons as well, but as of yet the Western powers that hold council seem a bit afraid of her potential. However, Spain is part of the G20, which consists of the 20 most powerful national economic identities. For Spain to be part of the G7, it would need more economic influence (I am aware that Spain had reconquered Latin America financially by taking over their banking system). For Spain to be part of the G8 it would need an overhaul, since this entry is dependent on its military might and political muscle. Stevenmitchell 22:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Spain superpased Canada's PIB at 2005..... see The Economist

It's true, Spain's economy is larger than that of Canada and spanish armed forces are as powerfull as those of Canada. What can I say? the world isn't fair, China is not there either and i doubt that in some 15 years, when Indian and Brazilian economies will have passed those of france and UK in size they will be there. Is just not about size anymore.
 * By the way, Brazil's GDP (PPP) is larger than those of Spain AND CANADA!!! So is India's.
 * And China. I think the G8 has less to do with Economic or Military might. But rather political influence (which yes, i conceded is related to the above).

India and Brazil have larger economies, but they are not first world countries. The G8 is a mix of economic and political influence. Spain has a slightly higher economy over Canada, but Canada has more political influence. And according to NationMaster, Spain is the 9th most important economy in the world, after the G7 countries and Australia. You should be arguing over why Australia isn't in the G8. They have plenty of representation in Europe, but none in the Oceanic area. Spain and Australia should be added. Brazil and India have too poor of living standards to join. Plasma Twa 2 00:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that in modern times spain has more influence that Canada, Spain is an important member of European Union and the last years the influence economic of Spain is hight ( remember, for example, Telefonica, Bank Santander, Ferrovial ( BAA ) and the others companys importants in Europe are Spanish. In Latin america the spanish influence is more hight yet. The spanish language           ( espanol )is the 2nd language more important in the world, after the english. In the other side, Spain has an important influece militar ( 7th palce in ranking forces militars in the world  ).

Under the 'Critisim' section: 'Also, recent nominal GDP figures published by the World Bank suggest that Spain has replaced Canada as the eighth largest economy in the world.' Unless someone can provide a citation for this statement, it should be removed. SJM 20 February 2007

Canada has 32 million people, Spain has 44 million. Both have roughly the same gdp. Do the math and Canada is a richer country than Spain, thats why spain isn't part of the G8...simple.
 * If Spain had the same amount of oil and gas reserves as Canada, I'm sure both countries would be equally richer in per capita terms...

Simple? Simple for you, see Russia, for example and tell me...Russia isn't a rich country. Spain is a rich country and has more influence that canada.

It is true. Spain suprassed Canada back in 2005... and not to mention its influence being much larger than that of Canada's. Angel2001 19:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This page is for discussing the article, not for discussing whether Spain should be in the G8 or not. One Night In Hackney 303 19:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes...please limit comments to the article, not who you think should be in G8. Kransky 13:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Spain superpassed Canadá's PIB at 2005
Spain's GPD is higher than Canada's...World Bank

So? Is that suppose to be a ticket into G8? China's GDP(Total) is higher than Spain's and I don't hear you complaining about that. Yea, World Bank too.

comparison with the Eight-Nation Alliance
Compare the constituents with the Eight-Nation Alliance. – Kaihsu 18:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Very eerie. Heilme 01:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)....

background and history 1973
Can anyone elaborate on the 1973 backrgound as to the start/foundation of the G8. its not v clear... i don't really get what happened and why... *thicko* Knowsitallnot 01:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's first set up to resolve the world's massive global trade imbalance problem and after the break down of Bretton-Woods system. They use the G5 (at the time) to discuss economic policy, currency appreciation arrangement of the sorts to help maintain balanced economy for all sides. But overtime, the agenda diversifies into other issues as well. Heilme 10:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

2012 Where will it be (in 2012, because I want to go and show my support for the my country.

"BNE" Abbreviation
Under the Economic sub-heading the table of GDP is referred to as "BNE", what does BNE stand for? I assume it is not any of the abbreviations in the page BNE (disambiguation) (one airport and two companies). DanielBC [talkcontribstats] 00:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

EU inclusion
I've noticed that the European Union has somehow been listed at G8 and the infobox. As support for its inclusion, this link was added in an edit summary. Unfortunately, it is is hardly convincing as I'm sure the "+5" for the G8+5 could come up with five bullet points of why they are totally vital to the G8 as well. More explanation in the article on how the associated nations and EU are involved would be great, but slipping their names into templates as if they are formal members is just confusing. - BanyanTree 05:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The EU is not a member of the G8. Just because it is represented at the meetings doesn't make it a member. It is similar to an observer status at other international organizations. I think the official G8 2007 Web site makes it pretty clear: "The G8 members are Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, Japan, the United States, Canada (since 1976) and Russia (since 1998). The European Commission is also represented at all the meetings." There's a reason it's called the Group of Eight—there are only eight members. Also note that the EU has never assumed the G8 presidency, nor has it ever hosted a summit. KeL 15:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The EU isn't a fullworty member, but it is listed in the same style with flag and info as the other partisipants at the Russian site from 2006 and the British site from 2005. It seems better to do the same things as the g8 sites and keep the EU flag and info in the infoboxes rather than to keep it out. If you want to underline that the eu isn's a 100% member, you can do so in the text. Ssolbergj 19:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to say that the EU should not be in the user box regardless of what the G8 itslef does as the EU is not a full member it is just represented. If the EU were a full member then yes go ahead include them but they arent so why add confusion by incuding them in the infobox?--Lucy-marie 22:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So does anybody want to put foreward a counter argumnt for the EU being in the user box? If not i will view this as uncontested.--Lucy-marie 13:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have already made my counter argument before (see above). The EU is not a member and doesn't belong in the infobox; it's that simple. The EU's participation in the G8 can be mentioned in the text. If anyone wants to put it in the infobox, then they should prove the EU is a member and answer my points above. KeL 02:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Precisley so we agree it doesnot belong in the user box.--Lucy-marie 13:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As the last voice of opposition was two weeks ago i shall now remove the EU from the infobox.--Lucy-marie 19:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Some editors here seem to insist the EU is a G8 member despite all the evidence showing the opposite. If they want to continue promoting this viewpoint, then someone needs to come up with conclusive proof showing the EU is a full and absolute member. Otherwise, the false information must be removed. KeL 21:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I tottaly agree there must be some coherant evidence as to why the EU should be included in the info box.--Lucy-marie 21:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge nobody is insisting the EU is a G8 member, in fact the version I reverted to (which was actually KeL's version) specifically states the EU is only represented. However, the problem at the moment is one of consistency considering the template as well. What I propose is that all concerned parties (and that includes people editing the template) come to a consensus on whether the EU is in the infobox and template and in what format, sound reasonable? One Night In Hackney 21:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I can live with the EU being listed separately, as in the current version, for the time being. I agree the template needs to be updated to be consistent with that as well. But the argument about the British and Russian web sites seems quite weak to me. It seems to be just a design decision made when the website was built. Someone should find more information before deciding whether the EU's role is big enough to be mentioned with the other full members. KeL 21:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok. As the EU is not a full member and is not required to attend summits, then the EU should be mentioned int the main bulk of the text only and not in the infobox. if the EU was required to attend summits and had the ability to chair the G8 then that would warrent its inculsion.--Lucy-marie 11:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * OK its been nearly a week with no response, so i will asumme that if there is no response after a week it is unopposed.--Lucy-marie 11:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you informed all the concerned parties? I suggest you do that first, as stated above. One Night In Hackney 18:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. By placing the statement above you have responded to on this talk page. This is because I have given formal notice on this talk page of my intentions. Anyway if they were still "concerned parties" they would respond to my comments on here.--Lucy-marie 21:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * No, because all concerned parties also include the people editing the seperate G8 infobox, so you need to inform them too. The seperate infobox still contains the EU, so until consensus can be gained on both they should remain consistent. One Night In Hackney 20:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If you are that concerned why don't you inform them?--Lucy-marie 20:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You are the person proposing an amendment which affects both this article and the template, therefore it is your responsibility to do so. One Night In Hackney 20:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Never known of it being done before do you have official policy on that?--Lucy-marie 20:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Still waiting for that policy?--Lucy-marie 21:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) You can wait as long as you want, the common sense thing would be for you to inform concerned parties there is an ongoing discussion on a page not directly related to the template. So instead of waiting, why don't you do it now? One Night In Hackney 21:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Still its not policy.--Lucy-marie 21:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (First off f*** this damn wikimedia server error that just killed by 20 line comment regarding this that I am no retyping). Second off, I have reviewed this and i personally feel that the includion of the EU in the summary box and the template is confusing.  it is the G8, not the G9.  I think the article explains well that the european union is represented with the quote, "The European Union is represented by the President of the European Commission and the leader of the country that holds the Presidency of the Council of the European Union and have attended all meetings since it was first invited by the United Kingdom in 1977.[2]"  So, I guess unless some sources can be found that state the EU is a part of the G8, not just represented in it then it should probably not be there.  -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 21:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Link
 * "The EU has become a full participant in the G8 Summit process but does not chair or host a Summit"
 * Full participant good enough?
 * "The first, and only, G7 meeting officially hosted by the European Commission was the 1995 G7 Information Society Conference which took place in Brussels."
 * Hosted a G7 (was G7 at the time) meeting. One Night In Hackney 21:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * No only full memmbership is good enough.--Lucy-marie 21:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Full participant means it assumes a full and equal role to the other participants. One Night In Hackney 21:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but it doesn't warrent membership or inclusion. Look consensus say it doesnt belong please stop beating this dead horse.--Lucy-marie 21:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you please explain what you think full participant means then? One Night In Hackney 21:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

←"The EU has become a full participant in the G8 Summit process but does not chair or host a Summit." was the question i have. I dont believe it explicitly states it is a member as well as other evidence in that source seems to lead away from actual membership (IMHO). For example, The language of the article state, "Each G8 member country..." The EU is not refered to as a member coutnry. "Canada became a member in 1976. Representatives of the EC/EU began participating in 1977." explicitly states the difference between being a member and participating. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 21:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

A full participant is someone who is involved in having a role in the goings on of something. This is liek a member of staff in a bank. This does not make them a member of the bank only a shareholder is a member. A member has a say and the power to make decisions and a participant has no formal power.--Lucy-marie 21:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that Lucy-marie changed her first sentence from "No it dosen't", please follow talk page guidelines. One Night In Hackney 21:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am entitled to edit my own statements. The changes were also made before comment was passed on them.--Lucy-marie 21:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So a full participant is like someone who works in a bank?! Sorry, I don't think you understand.  Participant - one who participates.  Full - self explanatory.  Therefore full participant means the EU participates in full.  There's no evidence for anything Lucy-marie is saying, my source is clear.  I suggest Lucy-marie produces her own source if she wishes to assert otherwise.


 * Also you are not allowed to edit your statements, see WP:TALK. One Night In Hackney 21:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So, what about the G8? Article talk pages are not for pointing fingers. Pelase focus on the content and not the other editors actions.  If you continue to point fingers and escalate the situation i will kindly give each of you a complimentery (short term) cool down block. So, i state again, please keep conversation here relevant to the article at hand and more specifically the EU's inclusion on the G8 summary box and the G8 template. Thanks -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 21:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Your source is not clear and is confusing. It is not an official meeting of heads. The G7 could mean anything and the G8 as it now is has not admitted the EU unless you can find documentation clearly stating EU membership im afraid your source is confusing. You only want me to source the impossible a negative. You cannot source a negative it is like trying to source someone never had 4 heads. it cannot be done, but is doesnt mean they once had four heads. Also could you pleae quote policies not guidelines or essays.--Lucy-marie 21:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've produced clear evidence showing the EU is a full participant in the meetings, and therefore merits a place in the infobox and template. However, due to some editors asserting the EU is not a full member and only represented this should be made clear in the infobox and template, as is clear in this version of the page. The onus should now be on editors disagreeing with this to provide a reliable source that shows the EU is not a full participant. One Night In Hackney 21:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the pair of us should let other editors decide who are not going to go over the same arguments time and again you have your opinion i have mine. another editor has said general concensus is no inclusion and the main text clarifies the EU position. Shall we both leave this to calm down and think rationally. Also how do you prove a negative and where does your source spell out the EU is a member?--Lucy-marie 22:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Try these: The Official site for the 1998 Summit, under the heading "G8 Structure: an informal club" states that "The G8 is an informal organisation, with no rules or permanent Secretariat staff." (Meaning it has NO members.) From the title page, follow the link to Participating governments: and you find a list of countries, and the European Commission.

The Official site for the 2001 Summit clearly includes the EU flag at the top of the page. Following the Fact file link to we can read that "Since 1975, the heads of state or government of the major industrial democracies have been meeting annually........ The six countries at the first Summit, held at Rambouillet, France in November 1975, were France, the United States, Britain, Germany, Japan and Italy. They were joined by Canada at the San Juan, Puerto Rico Summit of 1976, and by the European Community at the London Summit of 1977." (my emphasis). Emeraude 22:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide any statment clearly stating that the EU has been granted membership such as Canada or Russia?--Lucy-marie 22:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As clearly stated by the G8, there are no members. One Night In Hackney 22:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please read carefully before replying and see quote I just gave from the official website: They were joined by Canada at the San Juan, Puerto Rico Summit of 1976, and by the European Community at the London Summit of 1977 How clear is that? Emeraude 22:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I see your points and they are valid. I however feel that the quotes above indicate that they joined them at the summit, not joined the G8 (that is my reading of it).  I personally feel that the statement, " "Canada became a member in 1976. Representatives of the EC/EU began participating in 1977.""Link says alot for the argument.  The argument posed by Hackney was based on the fact that the above source stated "The EU has become a full participant in the G8 Summit process but does not chair or host a Summit" and that full participant was :good enough."  However, the language previously used in the article contradicts that.  And further more, other articles appear to poossibly contradict this source?  The question is, which source is reliable? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 22:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Joining doesn't confer membership. Also the EU are a multinational organisation. Which cannot become a member of the G8 as allready idividual states are members.--Lucy-marie 22:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Pardon my american point of view, (which prevents me from having a COI in this), but isent having the EU and indivial states both as members similar to an organziation where the the state of virginia and the united states of america were were both involved?-- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 22:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * With regard to my source contradicting itself, I disagree. In my opinion it actually clarifies the EU role.  The language used prior to full participant suggests the EU's prior participation was in a more limited role, but the statement The EU has become a full participant shows that is no longer the case. One Night In Hackney 22:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Did the G8 have an official title of the G7 before the latest "member" joined. If a new member, in theis case the EU joined, shouldent it be renamed the G9? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 22:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that that G7 and G8 are not official names anyway. In response to Lucy-marie's opinion on the meaning of 'join', I repeat that there is no official membership - see official sites. Emeraude 23:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * For further evidence that the European Commission is as much a member as UK, France, US etc, see the following OFFICIAL sites:


 * 2001 G8 G8 Genova - Header flags include EU


 * 2002 G8 Canada's G8 Website - Header flags include EU G8 Members - list of members includes EU


 * 2005 G8 G8 Gleneagles 2005 - EU at head with eight country flags, nine people in the official photo G8 Background - States categorically that the European Union is a member


 * 2006 G8 G8 Summit 2006 - photo of flags, including EU G8 Members  - List of members includes EU

And, from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office official website International Organisations, the categorical statement: "The UK, France, Germany, US, Japan, Italy and Canada form the Group of seven (G7) and with Russia the Group of eight (G8). In addition the European Union, represented by the Commission, is a member of G7 and G8."  Emeraude 12:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I do have to say you have provided fairly compelling evidence for the inclusion of the flag in the infobox and the template. Are there any rebuttals? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, I've only been away for a few days and look at what the discussion turned into. I continue to believe that the EU is not a member in the sense that the other eight countries are. It should be noted that while the links provided by Emeraude include the EU flag, all of them are very careful in their wording to separate the EU from the eight countries. All of them read something along the lines of The G8 members are Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, Japan, the United States, Canada and Russia. The European Commission is also represented at all the meetings. Notice the EU is rarely mentioned in the same sentence as the others and are usually preceded by words like also or in addition. The web sites are very careful to mention that the EU is merely represented, rather than a member. And this includes the most current German G8 2007 site. If the EU were a full member, why don't the sites just mention all of them in the same sentence? So I think more compelling evidence is needed before the EU can be shown to be a member. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 17:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess I have pointed that out as well in previous discussion. The article mentions that they are included but does not claim they are a "member"  Proponents for keeping the flag argue that there are no "official" members just a loose organization.  I think the wording is important, and i believe that sometimes the wording is taken out of context to support inclusion.  Overall, it appears as though the issue is, should the flag be inlcuded in the infobox and navigation template?  I dont think there is an argument that the EU is included, I think we can all agree on that through many reliable sources.  So, to reitterate, the question is, should the EU flag be included in the navigation template and the infobox?  -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I can accept including the EU flag if the arrangement makes it clear the EU is merely represented, and not imply the EU is a full member of th G8. I will change my mind if someone can prove the EU is indeed a member. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's the version that we've had for a while now anyway. One Night In Hackney IRA 18:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * After participating in this argument, as long as it is explained or differnetiated, I am ok with that. I will give lucy and anybody else who may want to dissent a day to post a rebuttal or so and then i will unprotect the article. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

To repeat: And, from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office official website International Organisations, the categorical statement: "The UK, France, Germany, US, Japan, Italy and Canada form the Group of seven (G7) and with Russia the Group of eight (G8). In addition the European Union, represented by the Commission, is a member of G7 and G8." Not represented - a member. Emeraude 18:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Could it not be argued that there are more sources that seperate the EU out as not being a member due to the language? I see one source that says it is and several sources that may say otherwise? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * To clarify, here is one.  states, "The G8 Summit brings together the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. In addition, the European Union participates and is represented by the president of the European Council and the President of the European Commission." Here the language explicitly singles out the EU. Furthermore,  states, "The G8 comprises The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, The French Republic, The Russian Federation, The Federal Republic of Germany, The United States of America, Japan, The Republic of Italy and Canada.  The European Commission is also represented.", again explicitly setting the EU off from the others stating that it is represented., again states similarly that, "The G8 Group is an unofficial forum of the heads of the leading industrialized democracies (Russia, the U.S., Britain, France, Japan, Germany, Canada and Italy), where the European Commission is also represented and fully participates." Yes it is represented and fully participates but it is again listed apart from the other 8 "members"  These are all from the official sites you listed above. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

No, there is a definitive source (the FCO) that says EU is a member. The other sources (and I only gave examples, not an exhaustive list), say it is represented or it joined and it is only by selective use of vague definitions that these can be remotely read as synonymous with 'non-member'. Nowhere is there a source saying the EU is not a member (I know, proving a negative). Emeraude 18:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is the FCO a definitive source? First off, i cant actually access the link you gave above.  Looking at the FCO homepage it appears to have very little to do with the G8 (please for my igorance if I am missing it).  The sites for official g8 activites, the ones i have lited in my examples above, make it very clear that the EU is seperate from the others.  I guess based on what I know, I would have to question the relaibility of your source (which i cant currently find). -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I will check the FCO address, but I wonder why you should question that the Foreign Office of the UK is definitive. Meanwhile, check this from the French Foreign Misistry: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=2562]

"Composition
 * Le G8 est composé des pays suivants : Allemagne, Canada, Etats-Unis, France, Italie, Japon, Royaume-Uni, Russie, et de la Commission européenne. L’Union européenne est représentée, au Sommet seulement, par le dirigeant du pays qui assure la Présidence de l’UE (si ce pays n’est pas membre du G8). Le Président de la Grèce a ainsi participé au Sommet d’ Evian, le Premier Ministre irlandais à celui de Sea Island."

[In translation: "The G8 is composed of the following countries: Germany, Canada, US, France, Italy, Japan, UK, Russia and the European Commission. The EU is represented, at the summit only, by the leader of the country holding the Presidency of the EU (if this country is not a member of the G8)...]" - In other words: the EU is a member. It is represented at the summit (only) by a country leader, and otherwise by the Commission President... Emeraude 18:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Corrected Foreign Office link Emeraude 18:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess i have an example. I was in a social fraternity at the college i graduated from.  We would have weekly meetings where people would attend, and individuals who were not members could still attend and talk at the meetings.  However, there inclusion in the meetings (similar to a sumit) does not mean official memberhip in the group oas a whole.  The reason why I question the FCO is, does the FCO run the G8? The other sites listed are G8 summit sites. I do not know the connection between the FCO and the G8? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This only shows a conflict between the FCO Web site and the G8 Web sites. There is nothing at all that proves the FCO site is right or the G8 sites are wrong. I still think there is a reason for the very careful wording by the official G8 sites, separating the EU mention from the others. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 19:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe you wrote that. The G8 sites do NOT say that the EU is not a member; on the contrary, they say or imply that it is. The FCO site is part of the British Government - the Foreign and Commonwealth Office - equivalent of the US State Dept. As diplomats, they are not going to make a goof like that. Same goes for the French Foriegn Ministry site. The separate G8 sites were all set up by the host countries' Foreign Ministry or equivalent. There is no connection with your social fraternity at college; non-members are invited to G8 meetings as a number of the websites make clear - a number of Third World countries at a recent meeting as I recall - as is noted on the official pages. But none of them say that the EU is in that position. The sites I noted (and others) consistently include the EU as a member; consistently include the EU flag with the state flags; consistently include the EU representative in the official photo with the eight heads of state/government; and have stated that the EU is a member, as have the FCO and the Quai d'Orsay (French For. Min.). What more do you need? Emeraude 21:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

And just found this, from Canada - the G8 Information Centre. Note EU flag included at top. Note following quote: "The six countries at the first summit, held at Rambouillet, France, in November 1975, were France, the United States, Britain, Germany, Japan and Italy (sometimes referred to as the G6). They were joined by Canada at the San Juan Summit of 1976 in Puerto Rico, and by the European Community at the London Summit of 1977". Which means that if the EU is NOT a member, NEITHER IS CANADA. Note also this page from the same site, referring to the 1977 London meeting, which lists all the delegations, not discriminatinbg in any way against the European Communities. Emeraude 22:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's another one, from the official site of the Foreign Office of Belgium. To quote the key sentence "Le Canada et l'Union européenne ont rejoint ce Club en 1977." ("Canada and the European Union joined this Club in 1977.") Emeraude 22:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This is madness. It seems that we are getting no-where here. I say we have a straw poll to find out who is on what side here.--Lucy-marie 22:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we're getting a long way if people read the links I've provided. The governments of the UK and France say that the EU is a member. So do several of the G8 Summit websites. And if anyone's Italian is good enough, try this one as well and you'll see that this official Italian Government website also says the EU is a member:. Who needs a straw poll when governments themselves are saying it?

"Il Vertice del G8 rappresenta uno dei maggiori eventi nel calendario internazionale, dove i Capi di Stato e di Governo del Canada, Francia, Germania, Italia, Giappone, Regno unito, USA e Federazione russa, insieme all'Unione europea, riflettono sulle questioni relative alla globalizzazione e danno risposte commisurate alla responsabilità che deriva dal loro peso politico nell'economia mondiale." ("The G8 Summit represents a major event in the international calendar, where the Heads of State anf Government of Canada, France, .... and the Russian Federation, together with the European Union..." which is mentioned separately only because it doesn't have a Head of State.) Emeraude

We cant be getting along very far with one person making the majority of the comments (in size). It seems to me that a simple clarification of who stands where would be useful to prove where we actually are.

Also this link provides teh following statement "The European Union is represented at the G8 by the president of the European Commission and by the leader of the country that holds the EU presidency. The EU does not take part in G8 political discussions" it also contains the following statment under facts: "Founded: 1975, Rambouillet, France Original members: France, Germany, Italy, Japan, UK, US Later members: Canada (joined at 1976 summit, San Juan, Puerto Rico), Russia (joined at 1998 summit, Birmingham, UK)".--Lucy-marie 23:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Everyone else seems to be in agreement that the EU should be included in the infobox and template. Thanks.  One Night In Hackney 1916 23:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It depends on the context. It if says is included (seperate from mebmber, I am ok with it). -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 23:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That was the version I was using anyway, is that acceptable? One Night In Hackney 1916 23:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This is why we need a straw poll to stop the above comments and provide actual clariity not conjecture on interpritation. Also i do not wish to have a personal constest with any member on this talk page, lets stick to the content.--Lucy-marie 23:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am unaware of what personal contest you speak of. Second of all. there is no need for a straw poll, you are the only one with an opposing opinion.  I have cery activly proposed arguments for both sides and the arguemt seems to stick that they be included, sepearte from the other members.  You cant argue that there is not a consensus because you disagree, it does not work that way. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 23:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just lost an edit thanks to the srver which I will return to in a moment, but may I first register my dismay at Lucy-marie's comment above that "We cant be getting along very far with one person making the majority of the comments (in size)." I prseume this is a reference to my coming late to the debate, doing some very basic research that should have been done before, prsenting sources and providing evidence to progress this debate. I regard this as a personal attack. Emeraude 00:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, where are we?
 * (1) I have presented sourced evidence from official government websites (mostly Foreign Ministries or equivalent) that according to the governments of the UK, France and Italy, the EU is a member.
 * (2) I have prsented sourced evidence from individual G8 websites, created by respective governments, that the EU is a member. Nowhere is there any official statement that the EU is not a member. Some people are arguing that when it says the EU joined the G8, the word join has some special meaning (and they must therefore accept that Canada is not a member becasue I have shown the sentence where it says that both Canada and the EU 'joined').
 * (3) I have pointed out that most of the official G8 websites are quoting from the same source, so the contentious phrasing recure.
 * (4) Lucy-marie quotes the sentence "The European Union is represented at the G8 by the president of the European Commission and by the leader of the country that holds the EU presidency." Of course it is. This sentence in many sources follows on from the sentence that says that countries are represented by their Head of State/Government and is needed simply because the EU does not have a Head of State/Government. It doesn't mean anything else.
 * (5) Lucy-marie further quotes "The EU does not take part in G8 political discussions". Of course it doesn't: it would be quite wrong for the President of the Commission to do this since the EU cannot have a single view on these issues, being an association of many countries (some of which are represented in the G8 anyway).
 * (6) Nowhere is there a source saying that the EU is not a member. I know, you can't prove a negative, but more significantly THERE IS NO SOURCE to say that the EU has partial membership, or restricted access, or observer status or anything other than full membership. If such exists, it should have been presented by now! Emeraude 00:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have not seen a source that I am stisfied with that proves it is. All of teh official G8 sites explicitly seperate them.  I am ok if we do the same in teh info box and the template.  I am explicitly against adding it as if it were, "one of the others" because all of the sources, in some way or another sepearate it. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 00:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

To summarize my thoughts so far: (1) The G8 sites are all very careful in their wording to separate the EU from the eight undisputed G8 members. In particular, the sites all say the EU is represented, while the other eight countries members of the G8. If the EU were a full member like the others, such a careful distinction would not be necessaary. (2) We know definitely that the EU has not, and will likely never assume the G8 presidency nor host a G8 summit. How then can the EU be considered a full member? At the very least, it is not a member in the same sense the eight undisputed members are. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 05:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Read the sources carefully; this is the field of diplomacy so things are worded very precisely. (1) They don't say the "EU is represented" but the "EU is represented by..." and then specify WHO represents the EU. The point of this is that a Head of State/Government is the embodiment of the country (what Bush says is what US says, what Blair does is what UK does, etc.). The EU has no Head in that sense.  That is the distinction, and the EU rep varies depending on the issue - which is carefully explained in all of these sources. (2) The EU cannot assume the presidency for the same reasons. In addition, there is a very simple reason why the EU cannot host a summit - it is non-territorial, so there is nowhere to host it. (But, in fact, the EU has chaired a 'meeting' or two; I think one on IT).
 * Still no one has addressed that a number of the G8 sites do say the EU is a member (and none say it's not), a number of Government sites do say the EU is a member (and none say it's not), the EU flag is consistently shown on page headings alongside the 8 countries and the official photos always have nine people!
 * (Incidentally, and this is a side issue, it is not correct to talk of 'eight undisputed members', because the name G8 itself is not official - even since Russia joined, many government sources refer to it as the 'G7/G8' or 'G7 and G8'.) Emeraude 11:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * (1) No, the point is they use different wording for the EU that is not used for the others. They did not say "The United States is represented by George W. Bush, The UK is represented by Tony Blair, The EU is represented by José Manuel Barroso ... etc." They are not talking about who are the representatives of the members. They are talking about who the members are. It reads "The members of the G8 are Canada, France, Germany, ... United States. The EU is also respresented at the meetings." Notice that the EU is singled out and is said to be represented, whereas the others are referred to as members. (2) My point is not why the EU can't assume the presidency. The point is that it never has and it never will, and that makes it different from the full members. And which G8 sites say the EU is a member? As far as I know, they all say the EU is merely represented. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 14:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with that 100%. The question is, should the EU be included in the template and nav box. I think there is strong evidence for inclusion (seperate from the others.  I.E. listed as represented of some other way to differentiate it).  I think the evidence for it can be seen on most G8 sites where they do list the flag in the flags.  However, i think the language of all the G8 sites explicitly single them out.  This is why I think the flag SHOULD be included, but SHOULD be differentiated (I.E. not just thrown in the list with the members but seperated). -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

How much proof do you people need? I have given plenty of sourced references, all linked, but no one seems to have actually read any of them properly. People are still arguing that 'joined' means 'sat at the same table', that 'represented' means they weren't really there in an official capacity. Please: read the sources. I have listed some of them again below, and I stress that these are all OFFICIAL Governmental websites - you can't get more authorative.


 * British Foreign & Commonwelth Office "the European Union, represented by the Commission, is a member of G7 and G8.
 * French Foreign Ministry "Le G8 est composé des pays suivants : Allemagne, Canada, Etats-Unis, France, Italie, Japon, Royaume-Uni, Russie, et de la Commission européenne. L’Union européenne est représentée, au Sommet seulement, par le dirigeant du pays qui assure la Présidence de l’UE (si ce pays n’est pas membre du G8). Le Président de la Grèce a ainsi participé au Sommet d’ Evian, le Premier Ministre irlandais à celui de Sea Island. "
 * Italian Government "Il Vertice del G8 rappresenta uno dei maggiori eventi nel calendario internazionale, dove i Capi di Stato e di Governo del Canada, Francia, Germania, Italia, Giappone, Regno unito, USA e Federazione russa, insieme all'Unione europea"
 * Belgium Foreign Ministry "Le Canada et l'Union européenne ont rejoint ce Club en 1977."
 * Canada G8 (which if you think 'joins' does not mean became a member, then Canada is not a member)
 * Canada G8 lists EU delegation exactly as every other delegation
 * Italy G8 flag included;  included in list of  particpants; "Si unirono a loro il Canada al Vertice di San Juan di Porto Rico del 1976, e la Comunità Europea al Vertice di Londra del 1977."
 * UK Gleneagles G8 flag included; photo of 9 people;  "Members of the G8 United Kingdom: France, Russia, Germany, United States of America, Japan, Italy, Canada, European Union   The G8 leaders: Tony Blair, Jacques Chirac, Vladimir Putin, Gerhard Schröder, George W Bush, Junichiro Koizumi, Silvio Berlusconi, Paul Martin, José Manuel Barroso "
 * UK Birmingham G8 lists European Union;  "This original 'Group of Five' were joined by Italy, Canada and the President of the European Commission in 1976-77. This configuration became known as the Group of Seven (G7)."

And still no one has found any source that the EU is NOT a member. Emeraude 17:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont think anybody here is arguing that they were not included. The argument is, are they an official member.  You can show me sites, that have them in pictures, that include the flag. YES, the EU WAS INCLUDED.  I am not questining that.  Based on what I have read about the G8, what i have seen and the research that I have done so far, I am not convinved they are official members.  Yes, the wording is confusing but based on every single g8 site that I have seen in there description of "who is in the g8", the EU is seperated from the rest of the countries through language of sort.  Yes, they were included and I am not against including them in the tempaltes and such but a.) to not differentiate them would make it confusing.  9 flag and 8 groups.  I can find multiple multiple sources that claim the other 8 are members.  Being it is named the G8, not the G9, if you can find me a source that says one of the 8 countires is not a member i would be more inclined to see your way. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me saying so, but that's ridiculous. I have explained before that G8 is not an official title: there isn't one. Which is why many of the sites refer to G7/G8. I have though, provided FOUR references above, from the Governments of the UK, France, Italy and Belgium that state categorically in precise words that the EU is a member. To repeat just one of them again, from UK "the European Union, represented by the Commission, is a member of G7 and G8". That's very plain and clear English. My apologies to anyone who doesn't read French or Italian, but take my word for it that the others are just as categorical. Emeraude 18:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It was formal enough that when they added a country it was changed from the G7 to the G8. In line with that, wouldent you expect a new "official" addition to be the G9? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * An for the record, state, "Canada became a member in 1976. Representatives of the EC/EU began participating in 1977." Is there not a clear cut differentiation there?  ALso,  states, "The G8 countries are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States. The European Commission President is a full G8 Member. The European Union is represented at the Summit itself by the President of the Commission and by the President of the European Council. "  This does not support that the EU is a member, just that the EU president is a member.  Again, this example even ex[presely differntiates the difference between the EU president and the EU itself. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The G7 and G8 are not the same thing, and actually that is explained in the article already. The G7 is the meeting of finance ministers from the seven countries without Russia. G8 refers to the political meetings that includes all eight members including Russia. These are official titles, and the G8 websites all use these titles. Your quote from the UK is from the FCO, not the G8 site. And the French or Italian versions also do not say the EU is a member. For example the Italian one only translates to "Heads of state and government of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom, United States and Russian Federation, with the European Union". Notice this implies the heads of the eight countries are there as the G8, with the EU also represented there. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 18:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This source here, state, "The European Union has been taking part in G8 meetings since 1977, although not being a G8 member itself".  -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Chrislk02, but your quote ("The European Commission President is a full G8 Member .") says that the European Union is a full G8 member!! Please read what you quote. The quote goes on to explain who represents the EU, for the simple reason that the 'G8' was originally (as G5 or G7) a meeting of Heads of State and the EU has no Head of State, as I've said before. You are quite right that it does not 'support that the EU is a member' - it states in precise words that the EU is a full member!! Your other quote: "Canada became a member in 1976. Representatives of the EC/EU began participating in 1977." No there is not clear dinstinction here. Suppose they wrote "Canada began participating in 1976." Would it mean Canada was not a member? (And remember that I have shown before that the quotes people have relied on that EU is not a member can also apply to Canada - from memory, along the lines of "Canada and the EU joined later".)

Kelw's translation from Italian is literally correct. His interpreation is wrong. Again, all the participants at the G8 are Heads of State/Government, apart from the EU which doesn't have one, so how else could that sentence be written. Assume just for a minute that you are wrong and the EU is a full member. Now write that sentence so it reads "Heads of state and government of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom, United States, the Russian Federation and the European Union". That sentence would be factually incorrect, because the EU does not have a Head of State/Government! How would you write the sentence, other than the way it already is, so that it is factual?

The quote from the French site DOES say that EU is a member. The translation is "The G8 is composed of the following countries: Germany, Canada......, Russia, and the European Commission." (with the EC after a comma to indicate that it not a country, as we all know). The explanation about who represents the EU is needed because, not being a country, it is not and cannot be represented by a Head of State/government.

My quote from the UK is from the FCO, I said so. The FCO were also responsible for the Gleaneagles and Birmingham sites, so what point are you making? Note that nowhere is there a G8 site produced by the G8 (because G8 does not exist as an entity) - all sites on G8 summits are produced by the appropriate foreign ministries or similar in the host countries. I've said that already.

The German site is an anomaly, I admit. But it's one out of how many? Emeraude 12:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The CIA World Factbook entry on the EU does not mention participation in the G8. Meanwhile, G8 membership is mentioned in the entries for each of the eight members. The United States Department of State  says "The members of the Group of Seven (G-7) are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States ... The Group of Eight (G-8) comprises the G-7 nations plus Russia." It only mentions that the President of the European Commission is represented at the summit. &mdash; Kelw (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Well done in finding a reference from the State Dept; I got quite frustrating trying to navigate their site a few days aago. But, we're back to your interpretation again. Your use of 'mentions' is loaded; the word 'merely' is yours. How about saying that the source says 'the President of the European Commission has also been represented' and interpreting that as he's a member?! (And it does say that, exactly.) As for the CIA, I do not think we should be guided by what it doesn't say (nor take much notice of the fact that it says that the EU obtained Independence on 7 February 1992!!!!).


 * I think it's time to bring this to an end, unprotect the page and make the necessary changes. Regardless of how long this back and forth discussion goes on for there's not going to be a consensus for including the EU on an equal level in the infobox and template. However there is a consensus that they need to be included, something along the lines of this version.  One Night In Hackney 303 22:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)