Talk:GWR autocoach

Stub
After the recent addition by User:ChrisRed, should the tag now be removed? --Old Moonraker 09:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Tricky. I would say it is pretty borderline at present. The article now fills my laptop's screen, a comfortable minimum article size, so it is quite a large stub. However, leaving it marked as a stub highlights that there is plenty of scope for expansion. For example, missing information includes:
 * Construction history (who designed them, and when? how many different types? variations during lifetime)
 * specific routes where they were used regularly
 * when they were withdrawn from service
 * details of control gear and what happened to this when the coach was coupled/uncoupled
 * details of the movable steps for low platforms
 * preserved examples and any used for departmental duties
 * etc
 * (Sorry, I don't have the references to provide this information!)
 * EdJogg 10:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Despite the lack of this information, following today's additions there is no way that this can realistically still be classed as a stub!
 * Now de-stubbed! EdJogg 17:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Push-pull control apparatus and 'lost motion'
Might be helpful to expand on this a bit, or at the very least use some alternative terminology. Were the connections particularly loose by design, allowing a lot of 'play', or did they suffer from wear? Whichever way, 'lost motion' is not a technically accurate phrase, although it will suffice until a more precise description of the mechanism is available.

I'm sure I have seen photos of an engine sandwiched in the middle of four coaches. What was the practical limit for interconnecting them? Was it possible to disconnect the mechanism from the trailing coaches for part of a journey?

(So many questions...sorry!)

EdJogg 10:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ed. Yes, I agree that we could do with some more info regarding numbers and dates, but I don't have it.  Also, a few old photos of them 'in the wild' would be nice.  Maybe if someone at Didcot could take a shot of the interior, which is also interesting.  I've reached the end of my knowledge, so perhaps you could take it from here.  Many thanks and happy hunting ChrisRed 10:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * p.s. 'Lost Motion' is a correct (but maybe obscure) term. Perhaps as you say 'play' and 'slack' would be better.  Feel free. ChrisRed 10:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Missing Info
 * The telescopic coupling has a spring in the middle. You squash it together and then let it spring out again between the loco and coach shafts.  I can't remember if (a) the shafts have square ends and the coupling has sockets on each end like a wheelbrace, or (b) the shafts have ends like a wheelbrace and the coupling is a square shaft.  Can someone at Didcot have a peep for me?.


 * The retractable steps are operated by the guard using a big (signal box type) lever in the 'lobby' in the middle of the coach. Presume this must have some kind of lock to prevent extension while the train is moving. (?). (Didcot??) ChrisRed 11:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Further reading...
The following webpage will be of great interest to those editing this article, although it sadly doesn't answer many of the above questions! There is much about the 48xx/14xx class, and interesting details such as that the whistle could only be 'auto-connected' when the engine bunker was towards the coach...and was often forgotten about when uncoupling!


 * http://www.gwsr.com/html/1400_autotanks.html (well worth a read, and not yet an EL on 14xx page either)

EdJogg 11:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent find Ed, put that in as an external link! ChrisRed 11:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9030&view=next&sid=72522c50a9f9614cae022b271293d13a -- Forum thread with pics of cab interior
 * - Pics taken on Dean Forest Railway example. Clearly shows the regulator mechanism mounted above the windows


 * http://www.163autocoach.co.uk/index.htm GWR Autocoach 163 Trust
 * - Lottery-assisted fully restored example. Restoration page shows arrangement of framework.
 * - History page gives loads of useful specs, dimensions and construction details, lot/diagram numbers, etc
 * - History page added to EL section


 * http://www.southdevonrailway.org/Bulliver.jpg
 * - Lovely pic of their auto-train in blood-and-custard livery


 * http://www.freefoto.com/preview.jsp?id=24-05-5&k=GWR+Autocoach
 * - Pic of No.178 on Dean Forest Rly


 * http://www.auto169.150m.com/ AutoTrailer 169
 * - Rather untidy page that includes tech specs for the coach

EdJogg 02:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Autocoach? or Inspection Saloon?
I was going to add Image:GWR autocoach on Severn Valley Railway.jpg to this article, as an example of a different design of autocoach. However, the more research I've done, the more I am starting to doubt that that is an autocoach in the first place. Elsewhere such coaches are described as Inspection Saloons, and there are several of them on UK preserved railways. But was this example built as an Inspection Saloon, or converted from an autocoach? (Certainly, if it had any, the driving controls are now gone.) Were any autocoaches converted for use as inspection saloons? (One web ref, which I didn't follow up, indicated that a preserved autocoach had at one time sported an ADB (BR departmental) number.)

More questions than answers...sorry!

Incidentally, if we do decide that this image shows an Inspection Saloon, the image detail and caption at Commons needs to be updated.

EdJogg 13:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes Ed...this was built as an inspection saloon. Quite an exclusive vehicle for 'The Brass', as you will find out if you try to charter it on the SVR :-)   The existing picture .ipg says that Coach 190 is a diesel railcar, If anybody changes the photo caption to 'Autocoach' we will lose the link, but I don't want to fiddle about with someone else's photo.  Can the original poster handle this please?  Ta ChrisRed 13:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have amended the Commons image caption to highlight the inaccuracy. EdJogg 02:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Auto-fitted Locos
Re :'Loco Section'

Ed...I still think that it is worthwhile to give the types of loco used with these coaches, to give people an idea of what a typical 'combo' would have looked like in various parts of the GWR. It's OK for grey-haired old anoraks like us to assume that people will know, but younger enthusiasts/newcomer railway modellers etc will need to see a picture. Many thanks for all your input to this article...I think it looks pretty good now. Best wishes ChrisRed 19:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah! I see what you mean now (i.e. I should Read the Article First). It duplicates the 'In Operation' section.  It's your call, Ed ChrisRed 19:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Another change of mind on my part... WP prefers lists to be converted to prose where possible, and the 'Operations' section provides some useful detail. However, my research keeps turning up more and more auto-fitted loco types, and I've not seen this collated anywhere, so I think we can get away with both at present.
 * EdJogg 02:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent, Ed. I never knew that any 45xxs were auto-fitted either!  Bit of a 'sledgehammer and nut' combination, but sure pretty.  I'll be popping in at Didcot in a few weeks, and I'll ask them if I can take some photos of the interior / cab etc.  After all, we really should get out more... ChrisRed 08:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, theoretically an autotrain could have four autocoaches (2 either side of engine, assuming autogear in good nick) plus a trailing load, so you'd need something fairly powerful. Also, it would seem that their usage was quite widespread, so we'll probably find yet more loco classes to add to the list.
 * Now, Didcot... This article could handle many more photos, so any exterior 'detail' shots of the special equipment would also be worth considering. For example, the lowering steps and (especially) the auto-gear linkage. But, as a priority, pics of the cab interior would be good, plus a close-up of the regulator connection (I am intrigued to know how it worked). My, er, 'research' has failed to uncover any websites that really do justice to the topic of autotrains, so we're trail-blazing a bit here!
 * EdJogg 10:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair enough Ed. Well, I asked the South Devon Railway for permission to use that nice shot you found of an autotrain in 'Blood and Custard' by the River Dart.  They answered my E-mail saying 'Yes' but I don't know how to go about including it.
 * The autogear is pretty simple really. If you look in the loco cab you will just see a long rod coming up through a small hole in the cab floor, past the firehole and linked to the regulator - simple as that.  The connection between the loco and coach is nothing spectacular either - just a square coupling (from memory) about an inch square.  This must have been very 'sloppy' to allow for the loco and coach to bounce about relative to each other.  I've seen the driver use the whistle, brake, regulator and gong, but I've never seen the steps extend, as the last time I had a ride it was on the Branch at Didcot, where there is a full-size platform at each end.  It would be nice if somebody at Didcot could come onboard to help us with the details, as I think that we are the current web 'Mine' of info on this page at the moment, although somebody must have written a detailed book on Autocoaches long before now :-) ChrisRed 14:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * But the mechanism must be a little more complicated than that. The rod under the coach must rotate, rather than moving lengthwise, so you have the problem of translating the quadrant motion of the regulator in the driving cab to a vertical rotating shaft, and then to the horizontal rotating shaft under the coach, and then back up into the driving cab of the loco to move the regulator lever. And, if you have a coach on either side, the operating shaft from each will rotate in opposite directions at the loco, so the loco mechanism must cope with this too! (This is all extrapolated from the coach driving position pic that I found.) I guess a workshop drawing might help! EdJogg 16:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Pictures needed
(copied from 'Auto-fitted Locos' section above)...I asked the South Devon Railway for permission to use that nice shot you found of an autotrain in 'Blood and Custard' by the River Dart. They answered my E-mail saying 'Yes' but I don't know how to go about including it. ChrisRed 14:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is that you need to have the photo released into the public domain in some way. Are they happy for commercial re-use of that photo? WP will not tolerate ANY restrictions. The simplest thing is for their webmaster to upload it to Commons and give it the appropriate GFDL or Creative Commons licence allowing its unrestricted use. Alternatively, we can grab their photo off their website, but as it doesn't give any licensing information, we have to go through the process to provide the proof that it is available for use. I've quickly looked at the basic Commons upload page, which gives some useful instructions, and also noted the 'Permission' link, which describes how to go about forwarding email permission from a webmaster. (Essentially you must have a clear statement saying something along the lines of 'I, the copyright holder, release this image under GFDL'.) I've never tried doing it, but the mechanism is there for us to use. EdJogg 16:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

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