Talk:Gabber/Archive 1

hair
"The girls could keep a small tail." what does this mean? Ronabop 11:12, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Guys usually shaved their entire head, girls kept extremely short hair and a small bobtail. However with the "revival" of 2002 the shaved heads were quite absent Jor 18:40, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Garbled Gabber
The first sentence is the first impression. It should introduce the subject clearly and succinctly. I've changed the first paragraph to improve the flow of reading, but ended up removing some phonetic details in the process. I removed "in the Dutch dialect from the city The Hague = Den Haag)" and "(the "g" is pronounced as SAMPA /x/) ." SWAdair | Talk  04:27, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Gabber/Gabba?
I'm a bit confused about this article (Gabba) and the Gabber article. If "Gabber" is the proper name for the music genre, shouldn't this actually be a redirect? Plus, it seems that in keeping with the way disambiguation pages work on Wikipedia, the article currently at Gabber should be turned into a disambiguation page and new pages created at, say, "Gabber (music genre)" and "Gabber (computer program)", or so. Would this be correct? --Ciaran H 18:17, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * I moved Gabba to Gabber music, and redirected Gabber (music) there as well. Gabber (music) had an intro paragraph nearly identical to Gabba, and no other content, other than some vanity links. The parentheses were removed to stay consistent with other music genre article titles, such as techno music, house music, trance music, etc. Conveniently, since Gabba was moved to a completely new title, the page history was kept as well. --Poiuyt Man (talk)  06:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

'Gabba' is a incorrect spelling of the term used mainly in the UK due to people hearing the word rather than seeing it written down... 80.177.65.182 15:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples of Artists
Could someone add a section of more popular Gabber artists and those that helped define the genre?


 * How about we take a poll of popular artists to include? I always notice when you try to do a list of typical or famous or popular artists of a genre on Wiki, people begin to add in a lot of their personal favorites and the list balloons. Also, would you do it by location, like New York, Rotterdam, or France? I vote for DJ Paul Elstak, Rotterdam Terror Corps, Neophyte, 3 Steps Ahead, Ron D Core, DJ Buzz Fuzz, Lenny Dee. -->Chemical Halo 22:20, July 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * You forgot Scott Brown. 203.206.51.91 11:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * i vote for DJ Outblast, Angerfist, Buzz Fuzz, The Masochist (The Prophet) (from nu school era), Darkraver, Gizmo, The Prophet, Buzz Fuzz for the oldschool... - Sept 30, 2005


 * Angerfist is an absolute must. // Gargaj 01:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Patrick van Kerckhoven (aka DJ Ruffneck).80.177.65.182 15:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ophidian, Nosferatu, Endymion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.83.226 (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Not to be a douchebag, you guys: but this is a definition of gabber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThFti86yyVE And this is gabba http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouAT7Ge_V4 There are distinct differences however gabbA has more of a happy hardcore feel than the upbeat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fkylw (talk • contribs) 00:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Marc Acardipane
There should be a note about Marc Acardipane in the Notable Artists directory. Not just because he is one of the most famous producers, but also because it was he who made the first gabber track (under a nickname "Mescaline United").

The first gabber track is Mescaliniun United - We Have Arrived. this is an indisputable fact. Just because no-one referred to it as gabber for 2 years (from 1990 when it was made til 1992 when the term 'gabber' was used) makes no difference. It was before 'poing', it was before 'Amsterdam Waar Lech Dat Daan', it was before all of them.

Requested move
A move is requested: Gabber music → Gabber. This implies that the Gabber (disambiguation) article will be put above the main Gabber article (on the music style). Gabber music and Gabber (music) will then redirect to Gabber.


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 

Gabber should point to Gabber music (and Gabber music renamed to Gabber)

 * Strong support Gabber is referred to without the addition of "music" and is the main reference for Gabber. The software Gabber is discontinued.Brz7 15:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - We only want the real hardcore people in the place. // Gargaj 16:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - Though I object to the above comment, this is an encyclopedia, not a Masters of Hardcore guestbook. Grow up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.65.182 (talk • contribs)
 * I suggest to 1. at least sign your comments if you rant anonymously and 2. get a sense of humour. // Gargaj 17:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So thats 2 pointless comments from you so far, nice going. 80.177.65.182 11:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Take note that not every anonymous editor is a total WP:DICK.  64.12.117.6 19:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Im not anonymous laughing boy, just forgot to sign the dang thing. Now stop waving it about and put it back in your virtual pants. No-one's impressed 172.213.198.84 00:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Split list of artists
I guess the list is getting big enough to be split into a separate article, where various categorizations (dj's, producers, groups, etc.) would be applicable? // Gargaj 17:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Origins of Gabber
This article is incomplete. There is nothing in it about te real origins of Gabber music. Gabber started more or less in Amsterdam. That's why the word gabber is used, it's amsterdamslang for friend. Music with a strong beat and a distinctive bassdrum from artists like D-Shake was already called Gabber in the mid-80s. The musicstyle later evolved in the faster and louder Rotterdam-style.

amsterdamslang? I think youll find its just dutch slang with origins in Yiddish. D-Shake? mids 80s? You what? 'Techno Trance' and 'Yaaah' came out in 89-90 and while gabber can be traced back to techno/hardcore records such as this and maybe even New Beat the music known as gabber came much much later. This is about the music, not the use of the word. And if gabber is an amsterdam thing, why is one of the first (if not the first) gabber labels *Rotterdam* Records? Either youd badly misinformed or just plain making this up. What you claim goes against everything ive heard, read and seen over the last 10-15 years. As I understand the origins of gabber music and culture evolved due to the nature of the clubs in amsterdam which preferred 'mellow' (i.e. house and techno) so dont tell me the movement *started* in Amsterdam because that makes no sense at all. 80.177.65.182 11:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't make it up. The story was told in a VPRO-documentary about house and gabber which was aired in 1990 (or somewhere around that time.) I have a copy at home if you want to see it.

I say again 'What you claim goes against everything ive heard, read and seen over the last 10-15 years'. Just because its in a documentary doesnt make it automatically correct. 62.25.106.209 03:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

There is an ongoing debate in the Gabber community, mainly "Rotterdam vs. Amsterdam" The first user who posted here is, obviously, one of those people who do not like the Rotterdam rave scene.

Amsterdam is, generally, home to the lighter sides of techno. . trance, namely.

Whereas, Rotterdam, is home to all forms of hardcore: Gabber, terror, speedcore, etc. etc. However, I do agree with mr. 80.177.65.182 up there, as does the rest of the Gabber community. --Krakaet (talk) 14:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sound file samples
It's be really nice to have some sample sound files that demonstrate the musical effects (square waves, BPM speeds, etc) described in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.107.0.73 (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC).


 * 9 years later and yet no sound sample. Perhaps someone that knows this genre well enough and knows how to embed an audio sample into the article could do the job. Anyone? Jtpaladin (talk) 00:55, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Pronounciation
Anybody want to get their IPA on and replace the nonstandard attempt at phoneticization with something people can actually use? "Gahbuhr, but the g is like the Scottish ch in the word loch" is sooo unprofessional. If I had to guess, I'd say it is close to /xabəʁ/, but I don't speak Dutch.
 * The pronunciation of the word is an interesting connundrum, since in the region where it originates. I'm not sure which IPA assignment is made to the diffences in pronunciation, because it's unclear in most IPA examples whether they're using 'Soft g' (common to the south of the Netherlands and Belgium) or 'hard g' pronunciation (common to northern Netherlands, aka the 'Holland' region). It's either /x/ or /ɣ/... I think. anyway, the pronunciation ammounts to: /xɑbər/, approximately. Though in the regional dialect where the term originates, I believe it's /ɣɑbə/ or even /ɣɑbɑ/. 62.251.127.12 (talk) 07:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've only ever heard people in the UK talk about it, and the pronunciation has universally been /gæ.bə/, without the final /r/. I'm making this change to the article.Jimjamjak (talk) 13:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Rave
I'm not really familiar with this genre, but should this page have a WikiProject Rave banner on it? __meco 16:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It probably should seeing as how the gabber culture and hardcore music in general are associated with very well known raves. Nightmare in Rotterdam, Thunderdome, Dominator, and Sensation Black for starters. How do you go about adding that banner, anyways?--Krakaet (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

List of labels...
...as gotten out of hand. Almost none of them have articles or are sourced. The redlinks need to go, either by removing the tag or deleting the label. My feeling is go with deletion unless sources can be provided. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I think listing Masters of Hardcore on this page is an error. They definitely should be listed on the 'mainstream hardcore' page but they should not be considered an important 'early hardcore' label because they only released four releases in that style before switching to the new sound. Unless people think that early hardcore must be exclusively Dutch hardcore then it would be better to list Industrial Strength (USA) or Planet Core Productions (DE) because they were both prolific and influential in the early hardcore scene. Furthermore, tracks from these labels were also licensed for popular Dutch compilations like Thunderdome. 14.200.0.211 (talk) 01:41, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Note on name
I don't know if someone has pointed this out yet, but in dutch the term "Gabber" always refers to the culture associated with the music, rather than the music itself, which is invariably referred to as "hardcore". 216.27.182.48 (talk) 05:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Also what is that about the "krassava" name. I live in a Russian-speaking country and never heard this term being applied to Gabber music. This could be strictly regional. Most people call it just Gabber or Gabba. 77.109.29.159 (talk) 20:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Frenchcore is being considered for deletion
Just a FYI in case anyone wants to participate in the debate. /Jiiimbooh (talk) 21:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Gabber" is an Amsterdam Jiddish word that means "buddy" or "friend" Does the writer mean "Yiddish" ? Googling Jiddish only brings up links to Yiddish, no wikipedia entry for the word Nmfox (talk) 14:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Neo-Fascist Rave Scene
As someone that was around in the American mid-west rave scene in the 90s, I don't recall a Neo-Fascist component even existing. Since the citation for that claim is not online, could someone who has the book quote the relevant portion? I don't remember the hardcore/gabber scene back then stretching much beyond Drop Bass Network and the Massive magazine gang. While there were definitely some colorful characters in that group(Doormouse etc.), Fascism wasn't really their thing. thanks On Thermonuclear War (talk) 02:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sadly there were (are?) a small group of fascists in the gabber scene. Some Nazitracks were spread through file-sharing under false names, like Neophyte and RTC, although none of these support Nazism and one member of RTC is actually black. For proof you should be able to find these tracks with little effort on Youtube by just putting in Neophyte or RTC and "Seigh Heil". Just remember that these tracks are very often spread under false names so don't blame the artist credited on Youtube. Some artists and labels put the "United Hardcore Against Racism and Fascism" logo on their records to show that they were not affiliated with the Nazis. Here is an example: . Then we also have the Anti Nazi tracks credited in the article, which can also be found on Youtube. Jiiimbooh (talk) 07:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Common gabber component
I think there is another important common gabber component which is featured in famous tracks like:
 * DJ Promo - Cold As Stone
 * Rotterdam Terror Corps - The Horror
 * Omar Santana - Bone Bastic
 * Masters Of Ceremony - Hardcore To Da Bone
 * DJ Buzz Fuzz - Jealousy
 * DJ Promo - Killerz
 * DJ Lancinhouse & DJ Jappo - Industrial Strenght 'The Outro' 
 * Neophyte - Army of hardcore.

You can hear that in Schiztrax - Dead birds at 0:17 (creative commons).

Unfortunately, I don't know the name and how it is obtained but this sound is specific to the early hardcore. It's not Hoover. It's not Supersaw. It sounds like the voices of a giant evil legion. Ftiercel (talk) 19:54, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not that important. It's not a "component", it's a commonly used lead. Salamibears58 (talk) 22:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)Salamibears58
 * I have finally found this. It's a sample of Carl Orff's O Fortuna. Ftiercel (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Terrorcore
Terrorcore is NOT a sub-genre of gabber, it's a sub-genre of hardcore techno. The kick used, well, the stereotypical kick used in terror isn't even a standard gabber kick. (like described in the article) I also edited out a section of the "included artists" because I suspected a big COI breach. Two of the artists listed for terror were Superius and Paperboyz. The first one plays speedcore and the second one is an unknown artist who appears on one release. The Undead Never Die (talk) 14:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

sound example
can someone please check the sound example. the caption says it is early gabber, though there is a soundcloud file ( https://soundcloud.com/ichiban2/wheres-me-rizzla-ichiban ) which is the same one, with "this is my first gabber track". i have no idea, but this seems a bit fishy.--88.75.11.127 (talk) 22:07, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the soundcloud file is the source of the media, as it is explained here. Gabber or gabba is a name used for two different musics:
 * A subgenre of hardcore that originates from Netherlands and appeared around 1993 and declined around 1998.
 * A subgenre of hardcore that appeared around 2003.
 * To distinguish to two genres, the first one has been renamed early hardcore in the hardcore culture and the second is also named mainstream hardcore but gabber is still used for both. The sound example has been chosen because it only features elements of early hardcore (fast BPM, complex beat, gates...). It's logical that the author has called it gabber because it can be called like this and it is better to call it early hardcore because it is not ambiguous. Ftiercel (talk) 08:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

What is needed instead is an example that can stand up to the hard requirements of WP:V. Some widely acknowledged gabber track should be given in the form of a short example, with a non-free fair use rationale to justify it. Binksternet (talk) 07:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Note on Origins
Has anyone stopped for a second to think what the name actually means? I cannot make heads or tails of the account currently given. Someone using slang calls the group just friends, that self identify as the hardcore of a scene. Next, there's a quote engraved on a release. Skip forward twenty years and someone says that's where the name comes from, in an interview that I am surely not going to sit through just to find out that - surprise - there will be no source given to substantiate the claim. And no actual explanation why we call it literally "friend music".

I came here to check whether it's related to GABA, because drugs were definitely part of the rave culture, but that's besides the point. Ad-Hoc theories for "friend" are likewise not viable. Bargoens is thieve's cant, you can't just look it up in a dictionary. But sure, gabba music basically means chum drum, why not, I can appreciate the irony given the unfriendly content of the music. I'm sure the cabal that dubbed gabba was made of good pals, anyway.

Nevertheless, regarding the above 2006 discussion by anons. If the sadly unreferenced documentation corroborating a pre 90s use of the term is not good enough, then the boiler room pod-cast likewise isn't. If the claim is to be believed, then the DJ K. C. derivation would be untenable, or at least derivative. That would be notable for the origin of the genre, is all I'm saying.

I doubt there are notable primary sources, given a hardcore anti mainstream attitude. And without primary sources, there can be no secondary sources summing them up. So at best you could note that "gabber also means friend" and that is "believed to be the origin" as per the source. If there is an obvious interpretation, which does not need sources because it follows from common knowledge, please add it.

The Amsterdam vs Rotterdam notion is immaterial by the way. People aren't bound to a single place, and neither is the music. Rhyminreason (talk) 21:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Split proposal/restructuring
I think the Gabber page should focus more on the Dutch youth subculture from the 90s derived from the music, whereas the musical information of gabber should remain on Hardcore (electronic dance music genre). This is partly because much information on Gabber is duplicated from the Hardcore page - and partly because Gabber is the early form of the present Hardcore (hence why it's also called 'early hardcore'). Also, this is the structure used on the Dutch Wikipedia and I believe that is the right one to also have here. The Dutch Wikipedia has a page dedicated to Gabber subculture which would then link to Gabber here. --DeLeeuw83 (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Support, the Dutch article is correct, Gabbers is how the Hardcore ravers are called in Europe, the name of the music genre is Hardcore. Kitcatx   (talk)  15:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Split proposal/restructuring
I think the Gabber page should focus more on the Dutch youth subculture from the 90s derived from the music, whereas the musical information of gabber should remain on Hardcore (electronic dance music genre). This is partly because much information on Gabber is duplicated from the Hardcore page - and partly because Gabber is the early form of the present Hardcore (hence why it's also called 'early hardcore'). Also, this is the structure used on the Dutch Wikipedia and I believe that is the right one to also have here. The Dutch Wikipedia has a page dedicated to Gabber subculture which would then link to Gabber here. --DeLeeuw83 (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Support, the Dutch article is correct, Gabbers is how the Hardcore ravers are called in Europe, the name of the music genre is Hardcore. Kitcatx   (talk)  15:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose this discussion has gone stale but for what it's worth, outside the Netherlands I think the gabber subculture is not well known. Gabber/gabba is known in secondary sources as a musical style, as for example in Generation Ecstasy: Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture by Simon Reynolds. It's a weak oppose though because what this page really needs is some work to make it better. Mujinga (talk) 18:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * hmmm yes i see the point a bit better now, since after working on the article its about half music, half subculture, but i still think it's better to work on the article here and spin-off a different article when it gets big enough to justify doing so Mujinga (talk) 22:05, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Split proposal/restructuring
I think the Gabber page should focus more on the Dutch youth subculture from the 90s derived from the music, whereas the musical information of gabber should remain on Hardcore (electronic dance music genre). This is partly because much information on Gabber is duplicated from the Hardcore page - and partly because Gabber is the early form of the present Hardcore (hence why it's also called 'early hardcore'). Also, this is the structure used on the Dutch Wikipedia and I believe that is the right one to also have here. The Dutch Wikipedia has a page dedicated to Gabber subculture which would then link to Gabber here. --DeLeeuw83 (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Support, the Dutch article is correct, Gabbers is how the Hardcore ravers are called in Europe, the name of the music genre is Hardcore. Kitcatx   (talk)  15:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose this discussion has gone stale but for what it's worth, outside the Netherlands I think the gabber subculture is not well known. Gabber/gabba is known in secondary sources as a musical style, as for example in Generation Ecstasy: Into the World of Techno and Rave Culture by Simon Reynolds. It's a weak oppose though because what this page really needs is some work to make it better. Mujinga (talk) 18:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * hmmm yes i see the point a bit better now, since after working on the article its about half music, half subculture, but i still think it's better to work on the article here and spin-off a different article when it gets big enough to justify doing so Mujinga (talk) 22:05, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Musical style
Gabber is characterized by its bass drum sound. Essentially, it comes from taking a normal synthesized bass drum and over-driving it heavily. The approximately sinusoidal sample starts to clip into a square wave with a falling pitch. This results in a number of effects: the frequency spectrum spreads out, thus achieving a louder, more aggressive sound. It also changes the amplitude envelope of the sound by increasing the sustain. Due to the distortion, the drum also develops a melodic tone. It is not uncommon for the bass drum pattern to change pitch throughout the song to follow the bass line.

The second frequently used component of (early) gabber tracks is the "hoover", a patch of the Roland Alpha Juno synthesizer. A hoover is typically a distorted, grainy, sweeping sound which, when played in a low register, can create a dark and brooding bass line. Alternatively, when played at higher pitches, the hoover becomes an aggressive, shrieking lead. Faster gabber tracks often apply extremely fast hoover-patterns.

- moved by Mujinga (talk) 18:31, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

From lead
The specific sound of Rotterdam was also created as a reaction to the house scene of Amsterdam which was seen as "snobby and pretentious". Though techno tracks from Frankfurt's Marc Acardipane were quite similar to the Rotterdam style, it was the popularity of this music in the Netherlands which made Rotterdam the cradle of gabber. The essence of the gabber sound is a distorted bass drum sample, overdriven to the point where it becomes clipped into a distorted square wave and makes a recognizably melodic tone.

Often the Roland Alpha Juno or the kick from a Roland TR-909 was used to create this sound. Gabber tracks typically include samples and synthesised melodies with the typical tempo ranging from 150 to 190 bpm. Violence, drugs and profanity are common themes in gabber, perceptible through its samples and lyrics, often screamed, pitch shifted or distorted.

Gabber also had scenes abroad including in Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, and Italy. By the late 90s, it became less popular than the emerging gabber-influenced hardstyle. After surviving underground for a number of years, in 2002 the style reappeared in the Netherlands in a new form, mainstream hardcore. The sound became more commercial, dark and industrial.

-moved by Mujinga (talk) 20:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * actually this section is possible copyvio from https://web.archive.org/web/20160306145906/http://djpellie.nl/hardcore/gabber.html Mujinga (talk) 20:30, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Origins
Many within the core scene claim that the original gabber style was diluted by 1995, mainly because of a mainstream variant called happy hardcore and, for hardcore fans, because of commercialization which resulted in a younger crowd being attracted to the scene. The commercial organization ID&T helped to make the music popular by organizing parties (most notable are the Thunderdome parties) and selling merchandise. The name "gabber" was used less frequently to describe this music style, especially due to the stigma created in the mid 1990s, but made a resurgence in the mid 2010s. -moved by Mujinga (talk) 21:15, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

is documentaries about gabber useful?
I've seen some documentaries about gabber on YouTube but I don't know if some of it is useful for the wiki.

- ...and I&#39;m AlwaysOutnumberedNeverOutgunned (talk)

It's name is "Gabba" not "gabber"
from the dutch word that sounds like "hobba" but is spelt "gabba".

it should be changed really. 82.9.104.192 (talk) 14:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes
Regarding a recent debate on whether to use people of color or non-white, let's take it back to the source which is freely available and says At the end of the day, some seminal producers of the genre are black, like the previously mentioned Dark Raver, not to mention the English Loftgroover. Sticking to the realm of speedcore, there is also a German historical project active from 1993 called ANC (Anti Nazi Core) and the techno hardcore label, Mokum, famous for the slogan: HARDCORE UNITED AGAINST RACISM AND FASCISM.. So I've removed Elstak and made the sentence in question Mokum Records made its slogan (printed on all records): "Hardcore united against fascism and racism" and in addition some producers are themselves black, such as Dark Raver and Loftgroover Mujinga (talk) 09:24, 8 June 2022 (UTC)