Talk:Gajapati invasion of Bidar

Title
@Pppery, the Gajapatis again invaded Bahmani territories, which could be considered as more significant than this campaign. That is why I added the year along with the title. What should I do, or what title should I give to the article for an another invasion? ImperialAficionado (talk) 04:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * We don't disambiguate titles unless there is something else on Wikipedia to disambiguate them from. If another article on another invasion is created, you can move this article back to the disambiguated title and create a disambiguation page here, but otherwise the title is correct. "Gajapati invasion of Berar (YYYY)", replacing YYYY with the appropriate year would work as a title for that article. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Got it ImperialAficionado (talk) 05:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Removing infobox data
@Sudsahab, please read the article body before removing informations. The infobox and the lead need not to cite if it is covered in the article body. Read WP:LEAD. Imperial [AFCND]  17:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok Sudsahab (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Bidar campaign
Ferishta is not reliable as N. Venkataramanayya says :Kapilesvara advanced at the head of mighty host, and reached theneighbourhood of Bidar, where he lay encamped at a distance of ten miles from the city. The Muhammadan = historians declare that this vast host was repulsed and put to” oe flight by one of the captains of Nizam Shah, supported by one Dose “hundred and sixty” horsemen! It is incredible that the war- worn veterans of Kapilégvara who had succes ssfully. fought | against the Musalmans of Dehli, Bengal and Malwa, should have turned have: turned tail at the sight. of a few Bahamni troops. it is not unlikely that he captured the capital of the Bahmani Sultan on this occasion and assumed. the title of Kalubargesvara. Whatever be the true results of this attack, Kapilésvara still as lingered in the neighbourhood and carried on his depradatory expeditions unchecked at’ ‘the time of the invasion of Mahmud Khalji of Malwa.* Kapilésvara’s campaign against the Bahmani Sultan was completely successful and as a consequence the Telugu districts of the  Bahmani kingdom  passed into his hands.

Sudsahab (talk) 11:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Use one talk section at a time. My comment is present on the Draft:Gajapati invasion of Bidar. Imperial  [AFCND]  12:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Your this article has many issues. Your Heading is telling about Bidar but your article is telling about Berar and both are different Places for example:{{Kapilendra deva marched towards Berar]] Sudsahab (talk) 06:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I will make a copyedit on this. Imperial  [AFCND]  07:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Moving the article
The page is moving from Gajapati invasion of Berar to Gajapati invasion of Bidar due to these reasons:

1.) "Muslim Administration in Orissa" states that the Gajapati invaded Bahmani Kingdom and plundered Bidar.

2.) "The Sūryavaṁśi Gajapatis of Orissa" also states that they invaded Bidar-Ahmadnagar. Imperial  [AFCND]  17:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Berar
Your this article has many issues. Your Heading is telling about Bidar but your article is telling about Berar and both are different Places for example:. your sources also says about berar not bidar so the article Heading is unappropriate Sudsahab (talk) 06:16, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * One comment is enough. Delete either of those to look more constructive Imperial  [AFCND]  07:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What is copy edit?? Sudsahab (talk) 07:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Give me qoutations of your sources when did they say bidar?? Sudsahab (talk) 07:32, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * To know what is copyedit, see WP:COPYEDIT.
 * Here are the quotations;
 * Muslim Administration in Orissa:-...Humayun Shah died in A.D. 1461 and was succeeded by his son Nizam Shah (A.D. 1461-1463) who was only eight years old at the time of his accession. Kapilendra siezed the opportunity and invaded the Bahmani kingdom allied with the Kakatiya chief of Warangal and in conjunction with the Zamindars of Telingana. He plundered the city of Bidar and advanced within ten miles from the capital.....
 * A Comprehensive History of India:-
 * ..Nevertheless, it is not possible to reject the statement of Ferista that the rai of Orissa failed in his attempt to take Bidar, and withdrew to... Imperial  [AFCND]  07:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you tell what is written in Ten Miles After Please? your mixing up sources which is WP:SYNTH Sudsahab (talk) 10:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * within ten miles from the capital. Imperial  [AFCND]  10:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Send me link pls Sudsahab (talk) 10:28, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Page number 34: Imperial  [AFCND]  11:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Sudsahab I found the reason for your creation of another article named "Gajapati invasion of Bidar". And you really did WP:SYNTH there. In actual context, it is about the victory of Hamvira Deva aganist the Humayun Shah (father of Nizam Shah) which caused the payment of tribute. The conflict was happened at Devarakonda. The year of the conflict was 1458. So if you want to add that context into Wikipedia, we can do that in either of the parent articles. It is impossible to create an article named " Battle of Devarkonda" as it fails WP:GNG (similar to your Etawah article). Wikipedia has some criterias which says that it only allows the creation of articles with much notability (see WP:N). But most of your recently created articles with headers such as "Battle of...", " Siege of...", "Capture of..." Etc fails GNG. If you want to ask anything about it, do ask at WP:TEAHOUSE, where experienced editors will guide you. Cheers. Imperial  [AFCND]  08:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Recent changes
@Avenger2000, the recent changes you made, is not the part of the campaign of 1461. In 1461, Gajapatis faced defeat at the hands of Muhibullah. The year, commander name and further details are unknown about the event. Do not mix up both. Imperial [AFCND]  08:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


 * please note this is the same campaign In 1461 CE. Ferishta mentions the same thing in one go that Gajapati army restarted their depredation once again. To which scholars like Venkataramanayya and Subrahmanyam confirms along with the Chatu verses which confirm the capture of Bidar.
 * We can't have part of the text only to show a skewed opinion. We should have all the views and end result. Ive not removed the first part that was existing im adding additional detail to clarify thw confusion this article might create.
 * Everything is backed by proper references. Check and let me know if anything is wrong. I'll remove.
 * Thanks Avenger2000 (talk) 08:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No. You're mixing up the invasion of the Gajapatis in 1461 with the later campaign of them during the Bahmani campaigns in Malwa. The date, names all are unknown;as the sources doesn't mention it. About the infobox, top contradicts the result as Muhibullah defeated the Gajapatis per the sources, and the infobox says quite the opposite. Imperial  [AFCND]  08:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Pinging @DeepstoneV, as he is experienced in Bahmani history. Imperial  [AFCND]  08:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Please read the original source before commenting. I've given exact reference where it is mentioed that in 1461 only Mahmud Shah of Malwa invaded Bidar and actually captured it. Along with that Ferishta at the same time mentions Gajapati army started again. You have to read all sources.
 * Once you are saying date names are unknown and in other instance mentioning the date in original article. I don't know what to say. First decide.
 * The dates are.known from Malwa history also where invasion of Malwa sultanate is noted. This along with Ferishta will clarify both things. Gajapati army later in 1462 engaged in deep south with Vijayanagar fort Udayagiri and Chandragiri.
 * I've not removed Muhibullah's reference. It is already there. Im just adding new part which happened immediately after it. Avenger2000 (talk) 09:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't use Primary sources here. See WP: PRIMARY. If you're about to add the invasion where Gajapatis succeeded aganist Bahmanis, why did you mix up the first invasion where Bahmanis Succeeded? The sources do says that Muhibullah defeated the Gajapatis. And the "Suryavanshi Gajapatis of Orissa", doesn't talks about the year, Bahmani commander, strength or anything about the invasion where the Gajapatis succeeded. That's where the problem started. Imperial  [AFCND]  09:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The force seperated
The force clearly separated itself from the 40,000 as shown in the note on page 951. Noorullah (talk) 14:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @Normstahlie Noorullah (talk) 14:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This was a forward force/detachment of the main force, and we are talking about strength of either side which includes 40,000 Cavalry on Mahmud Gawan's defending force. Ferishta has not clearly mentioned the events of the day with detail, even the authors are cautious of his writings being in doubt whether if such a small detachment would have been a reason for Kapilendra's defeat . I doubt even the main force went unengaged, but they were there you cannot deny that. Normstahlie (talk) 15:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "I doubt even the main force went unengaged", I'm sorry but what you think doesn't matter, the scholarly opinion(s) do. The scholarly opinions state that it was a detachment of 160 men that engaged (as cited). The strength of [40,000] being initially mobilized doesn't matter if they are not involved in the battle. Noorullah (talk) 18:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is why added (unengaged) infront of the aforementioned in the infobox. Strength here refers to all the forces mobilized even if not involved in battle. The mentioned secondary sources clearly state that the Regent mobilized 40,000 Men to repel the invaders, it doesn't matter if there was a detachment sent forward to attack the invading advance guard the 40,000 men were still present in the battle field. Normstahlie (talk) 18:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Normstahlie You make a fair point, I'll readd it. Noorullah (talk) 19:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)