Talk:Galatasaray S.K./Archive 2

Protected
I have fully protected the article from editing due to heavy revert wars that have been going on here. Please resolve the issues that you have been edit-warring over for the past day or two, and then the article can be unprotected again. I suggest you try to reach consensus here on this talk page. But if you fail, I suggest you take a look Dispute Resolution.--Konstable 20:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask why you took no action on the anonymous user (who goes by many IP's and user names) and the user Chappy84? They both broke the 3 revert rule, were breaking the civility rule and were adding misleading information that in almost all cases was outright wrong. The so-called issue with Leeds United is ridiculous. UEFA has never taken any consideration of it because it had nothing to do with the match. Two drunken English supporters had urinated on the Turkish flag and were assaulting local women. An angry local (not even a Galatasaray supporter) was angry and took action. It seems disgusting to justify hooliganism and even glorify it. Now what did have to do with the semifinal is the way the Hakan Sukur was hit with a projectile during the match (shame on Leeds) and the Galatasaray team bus were attacked in the away leg because the Leed United supporters were being sore losers. And the anonymous user who not surpisingly supporting Chappy84's contentions is adding false information also. Erdal Keser WILL NOT be manager of Galatasary next year. Eric Gerets' current contract will last for years. The anonymous user just has a problem admitting that a foreign manager is in charge at Galatasaray. That is why he cannot verify this with a source.--GS1905 20:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, this article is way too messy.

Galatasaray also topped the world club ranking to be named "Best Football Club in the World" in January of 2001. [1] If you check the link, it shows that Galatasaray where in fact 8th in 2001, and were never first. Galatasaray also holds the world record of most games won in a row at home (24 games in a row: 13 May 2001 - 8 December 2002). Galatasaray is the most known team in Turkey abroad with fan shops all over the world. Both also have no source and the second sentence is just somebody's opinion.
 * First, winning the UEFA Cup does not make the club European Champions. The UEFA Cup is the second tier of the large European club competitions, behind the UEFA European Champions League.
 * Second;
 * Third, these lines;
 * Fourth, where is the source that Erdal Keser will replace Eric Gerets? Before it was Suat Kaya, but whoever is keep editing this in does not identify where this information may be found.
 * Fifth, Galatasaray won the UEFA Cup Final after beating Arsenal 4-1 on penalties. The list states it as if they had won that as the final score, when it was really 0-0. *Sixth, the transfer section and the diagram of the squad should be taken out. These aren't used in the guidelines of what should a football/sport club have in compliance to the WikiProject Football.
 * Seventh, there are an immense ammount of external links, bulk of which are just spam links for fan or player websites. Thank you for protecting this long overdue project, and I hope many a member would agree with me on these problems. CanbekEsen 20:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the |diff from my last edit and current. I can not track what changes made after my revert, but that anon vandal again reverted in the middle of edit war of Chapman and GS1905. So at the end he succeded:) I've a suggest, start editing from this version, there may be a newer and unvandalised version but i don't think so. Canbeksen some of your suggestions will be solved just starting edits from this version. After that, we must start to work just to improve. Remove nonsense parts like diagram, achievements, great matches. The article is currently disgusting. For example, "1999-00 	Turkey Galatasaray 	2 - 1 	Italy Bologna", is this a great match. Maybe that part can be replaced with a stub paragraph. --Ugur Basak 21:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Konstable since you started interesting with this article. You can handle this Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents. I don't know what to do, they all blocked several times. Also, some requests passed without blocking just because either they are not reported or admins don't take action rapidly as assuming good faith. But he doesn't seem to stop. --Ugur Basak 21:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, this article is way too messy.
 * And these are not the only problems with it.


 * First, winning the UEFA Cup does not make the club European Champions. The UEFA Cup is the second tier of the large European club competitions, behind the UEFA European Champions League.
 * I agree. The anonymous user is causing that problem.

Galatasaray also topped the world club ranking to be named "Best Football Club in the World" in January of 2001. [1] If you check the link, it shows that Galatasaray where in fact 8th in 2001, and were never first.
 * Second;
 * Canbek, check this link: http://www.iffhs.de/?bca384f02788705f94b40385fdcdc3bfcdc0aec70aeed400

Galatasaray also holds the world record of most games won in a row at home (24 games in a row: 13 May 2001 - 8 December 2002). Galatasaray is the most known team in Turkey abroad with fan shops all over the world. Both also have no source and the second sentence is just somebody's opinion.
 * Third, these lines;
 * The first was in an article on galatasaray.com a a soccer news site but someone would have to back to their archives to find the information. I am almost sure I saw it but some citation requried notation would be nice.  Just take out the second one because it has no point.


 * Fourth, where is the source that Erdal Keser will replace Eric Gerets? Before it was Suat Kaya, but whoever is keep editing this in does not identify where this information may be found.
 * The anonymous user.


 * Fifth, Galatasaray won the UEFA Cup Final after beating Arsenal 4-1 on penalties. The list states it as if they had won that as the final score, when it was really 0-0.
 * I would like it to mention 4-1 on penalties but again the anonymous user is causing problems.


 * Sixth, the transfer section and the diagram of the squad should be taken out. These aren't used in the guidelines of what should a football/sport club have in compliance to the WikiProject Football.
 * I agree but there are at least hundreds of pages (many of them major) on Wikipedia currently in violation of this.


 * Seventh, there are an immense ammount of external links, bulk of which are just spam links for fan or player websites.
 * I agree completely.

Thank you for protecting this long overdue project, and I hope many a member would agree with me on these problems.
 * The article was alright until the anonymous user and Chappy added their personal opinions to it.

--GS1905 21:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Firstly I apologise if i caused that much offence. The section to which I added about the Leeds fans is in some way, whether it is liked by people or not, related to the history of Galatasaray SK as it has relation to the match which took place. With this in mind i felt that people may come looking for the information on wikipedia and may look on the page for Galatasaray for the information. The information wasn't meant in a bias or personal opinion and was meant to simply inform of what happened. I did try to today compromise and simply place a link on the page, directed to the football hooliganism page (which up until today i did not know existed nor did i know contained information on the subject), yet this was rejected by the user Waya 5/Rigobert Song/GS1905, whichever alias he is under. Other two reverts 1. To display the result of the UEFA CUP Final 199-00 to "0-0 (4-1 on penalties)" (which has also kept on being changed on the UEFA Cup page relating to that season) 2. To remove "Champions of Europe" from after the statement saying they won the Super Cup as the Champions of Europe are generally regarded as the winners of the Champions League. 3. The club is never actually listed as "Best Football Club in the World" they are however, when I was directed to the correct page after several links just sending me to the base address, listed as "The Leader of the Club World Ranking" in the month specified of January 2001. "Best Football Club in the World" is just the writers take on the actual title given. I do feel Waya 5 has a somewhat derogatory view of the Leeds fans yet all of the information in his derogatory views is based on reports of what happened that night and not actual fact. I will admit I have a derogatory view of the person whom committed the crime but not of the actual club as it is the same in England that people intent on violence attach themselves to the club but it is not the club that causes this violence (although he was, according to Waya 5 a Besiktas fan, I still feel the deaths are linked to the semi-final as the fans would not have been there otherwise, Leeds fans or the Besiktas fan). The Leeds United page does contain information on Leeds' 3 year ban after the 1975 European Cup final violence by the fans and also about the attacks which took place against the Turkish TV crew on the night of the second leg a point to which Waya 5 has stated that information on hooliganism does not exist on English club pages so why should it do on Galatasaray page. --Chappy84 22:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding the 2 Leeds "supporters" (if you want to call them that), no one is denying two drunken hooligans were killed in Taksim square in an event completely UNRELATED to the match because British airport security let them through. They were urinating on the Turkish flag and assaulting local women so naturally the natives aren't going to allow that to happen without a response. Obviously, killing them is extreme (by the way the stabber was a Besiktas supporter according to the media and had no interest in that day's game whatsover).  Turks can be very hospitable but foreigners, and especially the English, should not think they can act like they do in Africa or Southeast Asia and harass the local people without a response. This article posted by Waya 5 is good: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/4808246.stm  In this case, a group armed with weapons and AFFILIATED with AS Roma carried out the stabbing of 3 English supporters who were not even drunk but the English user does not insist on posting this on the AS Roma page.  Not suprisingly, only the English media (not exactly known for their favorable opinion of Turkey) took interest in the event, and it was completely ignored by UEFA as being unrelated to the match and so the reason why the match went on as scheduled, another reason why it is ridiculous to suggest putting it in the Galatasaray article, as it had nothing to do with the Galatasaray organization or its supporters. Leeds United supporters have also been stabbed in Italy while away on a away match to AC Milan. (Google search will provide this) The English national team and English clubs have a long history of racism and hooliganism that goes unreported on Wikipedia. However, suggesting Galatasaray has a hated rivalry with English clubs is ridiculous.  Galatasaray had two draws with Liverpool in 2002 and nothing happened between the supporters of the two teams. Liverpool won the Champions League final in Istanbul in 2005 and nothing happened with even some English supporters staying in the city for up to a week.  Leed United supporters have a long history of hooliganism.  Several Leeds United players including Lee Bowyer and Jonathan Woodgate ganged up on and assaulted a Muslim Asian student a few years back.  The Busby babes were regulary given death threats from Leed United supporters.  Wikipedia is not a place to glorify hooliganism, especially English hooliganism.


 * This hooliganism article appears to have been worked on by Rigobert Song and he cited sources and information which has since been removed and distorted and it would not surprise me if the said article includes a distortion of the events and removal of the material he added.


 * 1. Regarding the UEFA Cup final score, you yourself have tried to modify so that the 4-1 penatly score appeared next to Galatasaray's name. It appears some are still sore as to the result of the tournament.


 * 2. If you'll check, Waya 5 insisted on including the edit that has "Champions of Europe" removed. The anonymous user, who, like you, insists on adding the irrelevant Leeds United information, keeps adding it much to the annoyance of the other Turkish users.GS1905


 * 3. About the ranking, they were clearly #1 in January 2001 in what the German IFFHS that year called their "Best club in the world" ranking. You will notice they have "World's Best" rankings on this page: which they have since changed for the club ranking because of obvious football politics reasons.  You repeatedly lied about Galatasaray being #1 and in the ranking and misleadingly kept pointing to some August ranking for some reason.  Even in reporting an irrelevant event, you manipulate and selectively leave out information that was even mentioned in the biased English media. For example, the Galatasaray team bus was stoned by Leed United supporters as it passed an underpass in England. In the match in England, Hakan Sukur was hit with a projectile from Leed United supporters in the same match he scored his terrific goal in. Turkish-British citizens and non-citizens and their businesses/homes were attacked by English racists around the year of the match. You say the "Turkish TV crew had a fight with supporters"? Good comedy. More likely, a group of racist skinheads attacked them. You say the "Turkish FA let the match go on". Wrong, only UEFA can make that kind of decision. The Turkish FA could care less about an event that does not concern them. Not surprising the British media (not surpisingly, only the British media) produces an Islampophobic storm but thankfully UEFA has wiser heads in charge and treats irrelevant events like they deserve to be treated. I sense an Orientalist Islamophobic view here which is ill-conceived and hypocritcal considering the LONG history of hooliganism and racism that has gone on and even continues in English football. Remember the Heysel Stadium disaster? It's very arrogant of you to think that in the long history of Galatasaray, we have room in a very constrained Wikipedia (there is a constant requirement to condense information) article to include some mention an obscure event involving a team currently in the Championship.GS1905

By the way, the home and away kits are changed each other. The owner of this article should rearrange that.

I do take your comments on board but if you would properly read my view point I have stated several things which have been misconstrued by your interpretation. Firstly I did not put that Turkish TV crews were involved in fights, I put that they were attacked which means no reciprocation by the Turkish TV crews, I do condemn this attack on the Turkish TV crews as they had nothing to do with the two deaths. Secondly I, as you have failed to realise, have stated that I am not against the Turkish nation or the Galatasaray club, I did state I have a derogatory view of the person who carried out the crime, but this view is only against the individual. I would also like to point out that I stated that even if the individual was a galatasaray supporter I did not hold this against the club as individuals intent on violence attach themselves to the club. No club would actively recruit supporters intent on violence. There are large campaigns in England against both racism and violence which are actively working in the most part. You state that the Turkish FA had no kind of input on the situation and that only UEFA could make a decision on the subject yet you also state that UEFA made no decision on the match, they must have decided the match still had to go ahead as reporters were informed by official sources at UEFA that the match must go ahead. It was also UEFA's decision to stop galatasaray supporters from travelling to the leg at Elland road as so close to the murders there is going to be bad feeling in any nation against another yet the attacks which occurred on Turks living in England were condemned by all including Leeds united.

Several of the events which have been presented in your comment are from hear-say and the actual events of that night, due to different stories from each side involved in the violence, are very hard to identify. You called them drunken hooligans, yet they may or may not have been there simply drinking with friends and got caught up in the violence which erupted on the night. You also state several points of provocation such as urinating on the Turkish flags and insults aimed towards Turkish people, which is the reason for the violence presented by the individual who committed the crime and the people with him. English individuals present have suggested that they were simply set upon by the gang (and you yourself have suggested that the individual whom committed the crime was there just to cause trouble), I do not know which of these to believe as it is hard to determine which side of the story is correct. Maybe they were provoked or maybe the individual was, as some in England are, just at the match for a fight. I would however point out to you that since France 1998 English hooligans have had their passports removed to try and curb violence from occurring abroad, yet obviously I admit that some may get around this whether they have or haven’t had their passports removed.

I have seen on television over the past decade or so that whenever an English club has visited galatasaray they have been met with banners displaying "welcome to hell" and this is why I added that information. You also have a bad view of the English football fans stating that the English have a long history of football hooliganism. I myself have admitted this yet have also pointed out that this is very much a minority now and on the whole doesn't happen anymore.

Overall my point for inclusion on the page is that, at least in England (if not other countries, I obviously have no source for those), the events are connected to the match, due to the Leeds fans being there for the match and the person convicted of the murders being there looking for trouble with the visiting Leeds fans (as you have stated he was looking for trouble), and therefore people looking on this encyclopaedia may be likely to look at the galatasaray page for information on the events which occur, I understand why you may not want these on you page yet they are tied in with your clubs history, that's why I eventually placed a link to the football hooliganism page and just a brief comment on the subject.

One thing I would point out to you as a person is that you claim a lot of this is down to an Islamophobic view in England and by myself. I would like to point out on record I have nothing against Islam as a religion or indeed its followers and would never blame a religion for terrible events which happen in the world. I know that a religion, or its true followers, would never condone murder. The press in England are overall not Islamophobic and try to present information to our public from the least biased position as possible. Obviously some members of the society in this country are against the religion of Islam due to their quickly ill-conceived ideas from not being able to judge an individual and a society/religion separately. I would like to point out that from reading your comments that you seem to have a less than good view of the English society as a whole. We are not all skinheads that are up for a fight, infact the large majority of our society live in peace and harmony, which is the same all over the world and it is only the select few, which exist in all societies, that cause the problem and bad perceptions of the society throughout the rest of the world.

I am obviously not going to view the galatasaray page as much as you and so the information will probably be edited from the page more than I can re-add it therefore I will simply make a request and leave this page in peace. I ask you to add a small comment on the event to the page, so that people who look here may, via a link, find information on the event that is not derogatory towards either Leeds, galatasaray or either of their fans. The following I feel is all of this:

For information on the two Leeds fans deaths that is, via press coverage and writings, associated with Galatasaray SK see Football hooliganism

--Chappy84 10:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah the football hooliganism article. Rigobert Song used to be a part of editing that until it got out of control and decided it wasn't worth spending time on. I wonder how much of the information and links he added to it have been removed? Instead of repeating everything GS1905 has said I will just direct everybody to his post at higher in this page as he makes some good points. First off, you seem to assume Galatasaray supporters put up "Welcome to Hell" banners exclusively when they are being visited by an English team. Untrue. This is for all visiting teams to Istanbul. Second, Leeds United seems to be the only team that has had this problem in Turkiye.  Liverpool, Aston Villa, Manchester United, Chelsea, Blackburn Rovers, etc. have all visited Turkiye with nowhere near as sizeable a scandal as with Leeds United. Also, you will note that Leeds United supporters were stabbed in away matches to AC Milan during the 2000-01 Champions League. Also, an AS Roma Ultras group (an active supporter organization) attacked Middlesborough supporters.  Apparently becuase they are european christians they are given the benefit of the doubt, "Oh those hooligans!" as opposed to Galatasaray's case, "I hate those Turks, and all Muslims while we're at it" where the British media tried to have it mentioned as a characteristic of Turkish football. Or how about this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2323345.stm. The British media felt it was worth mentioning for a week, perhaps because slovakia was a small orthodox country that they weren't at war with throughout the age of imperialism. Try and get that posted on the slovak national football team page. I have battled with many an Islamophobic skinhead on the internet because of the wonderful (sarcastic) treatment of the Brtish media of the event. Again, the Galatasaray team bus and Hakan Sukur were both attacked.  And this was by people I can easily say were supporters of the Leeds United football club. Since UEFA didn't rule in favor of a christian european team, than that is a pretty sure indicator that if even they didn't think it was worth stopping the match, then there was no reason to stop it at all. Maybe you should add a damning link on the pages of all the Australian teams because an English tourist was murdered in their country because of an outback killer.The incident needs no mention on the Galatasaray page as the organization had no responsibility for it and had nothing to do with it and instead were attacked because of it.--Waya 5 10:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am, however I present my view, never going to convince you of my viewpoint, you clearly have an unchangeable view of the English people and Leeds united supporters. We are not all skin heads hell bent on causing trouble at football matches.  I have been to well over 500 myself and NEVER seen or been involved in trouble both home and away.  I have seen trouble on TV when both Chelsea and Liverpool visited turkey (there is infact still a Liverpool fan in jail in turkey from when they visited for the champions league final for being involved in a fracas during his time there, although he claims he was set upon and the people on the other side claim he started it, I don't know, I haven't seen enough of it) over the past decade and I stated the information about "welcome to hell" about English clubs as I have only ever seen coverage of English clubs visiting because these are the matches I have watched on TV. I have also stated that, as I suspect is the same in turkey, the vast majority of supporters in England are legitimate supporters simply wanting to watch the football as entertainment, it is only the few (the violent people wanting a fight) that spoil it for the many. Leeds United do NOT have a problem with Turkey or Galatasaray.  You state that the English media have an Islamaphobic view, yet as I have already stated this is not the case, particularly in the BBC who pride themselves on being as neutral as possible, and from reading the first paragraph of the article you have just presented, they clearly blame the English fans for the initiating the trouble at that event.  I would also point out that just because I didn't point out that the team bus was attacked doesn't mean I deny it, I thought however that attacking a bus and attacking several Turkish TV crew were not on the same level as material possessions and actual peoples lives are clearly on a different level. and yes i acknowledge what you mention about hakan suker being his on the head by a projectile and apologise for not including this in the original information i placed on  the page.

I have stated on several occasions that I do not blame Galatasaray or the Turkish nation for the supporters deaths yet you keep on reading this in to what I say.

there was a supportable argument for stopping the match in that the players, particularly on the Leeds united team, would be horrified by the events that occurred and due to those exceptional circumstances not normally present at any football match would have been severely traumatised and not in an emotional state to take part in the game. I do however accept that Galatasaray were the better of the teams over the two legs and from that deserved to go through to the final

The reason this subject has kept on coming up is that Leeds united fans, the same as the club, do not want the deaths of these supporters to be forgotten because as you have stated the person who killed them was there to stir trouble up with the Leeds supporters (although I’m not saying whether or not they antagonised the situation as to be honest only the people that were there will know) and people should never be killed whatever they do, never mind for footballing reasons

I will direct you to the last few paragraphs of my last post starting "Overall my point for inclusion on the page is...." --Chappy84 22:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the Leeds info has been removed, again, by Waya5. There is also no mention of the Leeds-Galatasaray incidend on the hooliganism page. This is important information (it's what Galatasaray is known for in the West). Why is this page not protected? --alexwoods 17:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "There is also no mention of the Leeds-Galatasaray incidend on the hooliganism page."


 * Nor should there be because it had nothing to do with the Galatasaray organization or its supporter base. They should do something about the Islamophobic skinhead educational system.


 * Also, it's "incident", not "incidend". Whatever you mean by the "West", its obvious you're not from it with your spelling and grammar.


 * "This is important information (it's what Galatasaray is known for in the West). "


 * Wrong again. Galatasaray is actually known for beating down Arsenal and Leeds United (2nd and 3rd in the English Premiership at the time) to win the UEFA Cup and defeating Real Madrid to win the 2000 UEFA Super Cup.


 * And no, what you're saying is in fact NOT important information. Also, nobody in the "West" associates that with Galatasaray except brainless Islamophobic skinheads who didn't make it past grade school.  Again, the reason why UEFA didn't call off the match.  UEFA didn't concern itself with useless drunkards so why should anybody else?


 * ""Why is this page not protected?"


 * Yes it should be protected from people like you and the anonymous user (I suspect he is Kurdish, judging from his edits in the past, and he is carrying out an anti-Turkish agenda; the English often go hand in hand with Kurdish terrorists that have been recognized by the EU and the USA as terrorist organizations) who does nothing but do damage to this page. Just give up. The only other user who agrees with you just puts misinformation and lies on this page anyway.
 * --Waya 5 11:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Request fix
On the page of Galatasaray i saw a mistake but i cannot revert it becauce the page is under protection, in the Managerial area Yılmaz Gökdel was the manager in 1974-1975 season could you fix this?

Johnny200 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * (copied from my talk page; I don't know why he asked me.) &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 00:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Incorrect! 1974-1975 was Don Howe!!!! The official website: http://www.galatasaray.org/kurumsal/tarihce/teknik_direktorler.aspWaya 5 01:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Galatasaray article
On the page of Galatasaray i saw a mistake but i cannot revert it becauce the page is under protection, in the Managerial area Yılmaz Gökdel was the manager in 1974-1975 season could you fix this? http://www.webaslan.com/kulup/antrenor.php this is the official site of Galatasaray here it says that Gokdel is coach for the 74-75 season :)

.org is not a official site check out the link i gave you there it says that Gokdel was the first coach then Howe took it over

Johnny200 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * http://www.galatasaray.org is the OFFICIAL website. Go ahead and try to lie. No one believes you with your history of article vandalism. All you do is post false information. And the site you are trying to pass off is galatasaray.com and everybody knows that is a fan website. The official site says Don Howe. http://www.galatasaray.org/kurumsal/tarihce/teknik_direktorler.asp Deal with it liar!

Waya 5 18:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You are really a stupid fuck if you dont even know your teams history Yilmaz Gokdel was a real Galatasarayli and he coached galatasaray in the seventies your list says Gokdel was never coach.

thats not corret

Gokdel was succeeded by Don Hawe !! that means that Gokdel started off as coach of the 74-75 he even won a Cup with Galatasaray Ataturk Cup

1974-1975 Yilmaz Gokdel - Ahmet Karlikli - Don Hawe 1975-1976 G. Mansell - Tamer Kaptan

see this?

this means that Yilmaz got succeed by a interim coach Ahmet and then finished off the season with Don Hawe


 * Wow, you are full of it. Let's see. You have said that www.galatasaray.org is not the official website of Galatasaray, an obvious lie. You have said that Suat Kaya will be coach of Galatasaray next year, an obvious lie. You have said Erdal Keser will be coach of Galatasaray next year, an obvious lie. You have said that Ertugrul Saglam will be coach of the national team, an obvious lie. And now you are getting frustrated because everybody knows you are lying. And by the way, I'm not an Galatasaray supporter but it looks like I know more about Galatasaray than you ever will.  And now you have resorted to cursing like that because you know you are wrong. :)


 * http://www.galatasaray.org/kurumsal/tarihce/teknik_direktorler.asp. The OFFICIAL website says Don Hawe was manager in 1974-1975. Somebody just has to look at your "contributions" and see that you make false information all the time. And it is no surprise that you, the person adding all of this false information to Turkish football articles, are the only one who agrees with that English user trying to tarnish Galatasaray's image with lies. You are trying to pass off the Turkish assistant managers of that time as the managers because you hate to admit that a foreign manager was in charge.Waya 5 20:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Calm down; don't make personal attacks, etc. JesseW, the juggling janitor 23:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)