Talk:Gallery of country coats of arms/Archive 2008

South Africa
Just a question... What happened to South Africa's COA? Thfump (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Please Add South Africa
Why on earth has South Africa been left out??? Could someone who has access please add it.--41.246.110.13 (talk) 19:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Propose deletion of this page
Since there is a Gallery of country coats of arms page, I propose we delete the "sovereign states" version and use the one with the more common usage, in order to be consistent with Wikipedia past practice.

Wikipedia typically goes with common usages, and not academic (but non-scientific) ones. Do we go back and change all events from 1/1/2000 to 12/31/2000 and list them as "events of the 20th century"? No, we go with the common usage.

Wikipedia consistency: Do we have a "list of sovereign states by length of coastline"? No. How about "list of sovereign states by number of active troops", or "list of sovereign states by Human Development Index", or "list of sovereign states by number of telephone lines in use"? Of course not.

But we do have list of countries by length of coastline, list of countries by number of active troops, list of countries by Human Development Index, and list of countries by number of telephone lines in use, and all of those naturally include countries like Taiwan. Makes sense for the flag list to use the Wikipedia convention, too.

Skalskal —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skalskal (talk • contribs) 14:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This article has an editing history going back to 2004. If the article title needs changing, don't create a fork which destroys all the editing history. Argue convincingly that the title needs changing, and the article will get moved. Gallery of country coats of arms is a fork of this article (currently identical except for the addition of one country) and should be deleted. Gimmetrow 16:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * History of page really has no bearing on validity. Several have vehemently argued that the countries listed in the page are consistent with the title, and they are correct.  However, the title itself leads one to believe that it should not be listed in the various "list of country" listings, as it is NOT a list of countries, but merely a list of UN-recognized states.  This type of listing is inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia, but may still serve a useful purpose.  For reference, see list of countries vs. list of sovereign states.  I do not propose moving or deleting this article per se, but having both.  However, if one is to be deleted, it would clearly be the sovereign-state version (4-year history notwithstanding), as virtually every other list on wikipedia does NOT call out a separate page for "non-sovereign states", but lists them on the same page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.188.183.5 (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The *history* of the page cannot be deleted without creating a copyright violation. As it stands, it appears someone created the entire Gallery of country coats of arms on 8 April from scratch without credit to all the other editors who worked on this list since 2004. This list *could* be moved somewhere else, if you wish to make that argument. Gimmetrow 17:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep this Coat of Arms. This is the best don't remove it. It is part of all of us and I like it because it shows the coat of arms of all sovereign and unrecognized states. So please keep it. "koov" 13:28, 15 April 2008


 * Well, the preferable solution would be to rename this page to remove the restriction that it be based on "sovereign states" (note that it does NOT show unrecognized states, not even as an addendum, it merely refers to another page!!), or have it include partially-recognized and unrecognized de facto states, so that it matches the rest of the lists. Again, find me a split-out-into-two-articles lsit of sovereign states by coastline, and then you have a consistency argument.  Until then, this is merely an island with different rules from the rest of the ocean, and it should be standardized.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skalskal (talk • contribs) 17:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVA
Kosova is a recognized state by at least 35 nations and growing, so it clearly does belong in this article, partial recognition is only considered when a country is recognized by its mother land or relay close allies:(E.i. North Cyprus by Turkey), Kosova is not a partially recognized state, it is currently recognized by over 35 countries world wide and less than 10 countries have said they will not recognize it which means most of the other countries on earth have stated that they are in the process of recognition. The Kosova state is very similar to the Israel state both are recognized by some and not by other, for example non of the Muslim/Arab states recognize Israel but its still considered a sovereign state, Kosova is in the same situation and is considered a sovereign state even though countries like Serbia, Russia & Cyprus have said they will not recognize it.

Thanx 82.45.201.125 (talk) 08:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The issue is that, yes, Kosovo is a country. But the name of this entry is "sovereign state", which is a term under some dispute but which can be construed as sort of meaning recognized by everyone or almost everyone.


 * But, the bigger problem is that this article is being reference in the "lists by country" entry, which is clearly incorrect, every other list on that page includes Taiwan and Kosovo where data is available. This page should instead be in a "lists by sovereign state" list, or it should be renamed and include all countries. 155.188.247.5 (talk) 13:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Propose a vote on renaming
Propose a vote on whether this should be renamed to "Gallery of country coats of arms" and include flags such as those of Taiwan and Kosovo. Please give reasons for or against your vote to Rename or to Keep name.


 * Rename: There are many many wikipedia articles listed by country, whereas there are only a few listed by "sovereign state".  Since the intention here seems to be to prevent a duplication of effort, I propose we go with the far-more useful and common version. Skalskal (talk) 16:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Definition of "sovereign state"
Just a reminder, here is the exact quote of the definition of a sovereign state, per the referenced page, with my bolding:

...................

Criteria for inclusion

This list derives its definition of a sovereign state from Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention of 1933. According to the Convention, a sovereign state should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. In respect of the last qualification, the role of recognition by other states can often be crucial since it implies acceptance into the international community.[2] The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence; however, the aforementioned qualifications are not absolute and permit variations.

On the basis of the above criteria, this list includes the following 203 entities:

193 sovereign states with general international recognition:

192 member states of the United Nations

One state with general international recognition but not UN membership, governed by the Holy See (a UN permanent observer): Vatican City

10 sovereign states lacking general international recognition:

Four entities lacking general international recognition, none of which are UN members, that may be defined as states in the body of customary international law: the Republic of China (Taiwan), the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, Kosovo, and the Palestinian territories.

Six entities lacking general international recognition, none of which are UN members, that have declared independence and have limited or no international recognition: the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (only recognized by Turkey), Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Transnistria, Somaliland, and South Ossetia.

...................

If you would like this list to include only UN-recognized sovereign states, then we should change the title. Otherwise, be consistent with the title you're sticking to so adamantly!!! Skalskal (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * To those editing to a different standard: the title of this article is "Gallery of sovereign-state coats of arms", and it directly references the list of sovereign states, which includes 203 entries, including Kosovo & Taiwan. While you may personally disagree with this classification, the article has been clearly named as including "sovereign states", and NOT named as "UN-recognized states".  If you believe that a separate article is necessary, please feel free to start one.  Here's a start for you:  Gallery of UN-recognized sovereign-state coats of arms.  Have at it, but do not edit out this list. Skalskal (talk) 17:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia
Some nationalist Greek has placed the coat of arms of the Republic of Macedonia under the "F" section. I'm sorry my dear, but even with all your struggles, Republic of Macedonia starts with "M" and its not "flag of the fyrom" but its "flag of Macedonia." This needs to be changed.Long live Macedonia and Macedonians and Macedonia's minorities:Albanians, Turks, Serbs, Vlachs.

100px 141.217.95.238 (talk) 15:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Good catch. Mactruth (talk) 02:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

New Discussion
A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Lists of countries which could affect the inclusion criteria and title of this and other lists of countries. Editors are invited to participate. Pfainuk talk 13:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)